Sosa will soon retire....officially

[ExtremeR]

I agree.

The game looked the other way after the 1994 strike year almost killed the game (I quit giving a crap about baseball then). Steroids came into the lockerroom, the ball got juiced, and the Big Hitters emerged.

The crowd went wild..."Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

But at what cost?

I lost friends I played college and pro ball with to steroids. Suicide, drop-dead heart attacks, enlarged hearts, liver cancer and brain cancer. That stuff is truly making a deal with the devil.

I took them, the old crude dianabol, for two months in 1973. I gained 25 pounds of muscle, gained 35 lbs. (they also retain water), my bench went up 100 lbs, I became hyper-aggressive, my face grew zits and my balls shrunk. Scared the crap out of me. But unlike many other players, I knew football was a means to an end, not my life. Others saw sports as their only hope and weren't so scared. I was lucky.

IMO, most all the MLB records after 1994 are tainted.

To imply that steroids had to do with all those illness is ignorant at best, while steroids are harmful if you use them the wrong way, it won't by any means cause heart enlargement (LOL, only HGH could cause that, and that is not a steroid), brain cancer and may cause liver damage but no liver cancer unless you are injecting boatloads of stanozolol (winstrol) or any 17-nor type steroids, that is asuming those guys didn't drink alcohol. Drop dead heart attacks happens to millions of people every day who doesn't use steroids (high blood pressure and being overweight the most related causes) and depression may follow up a cycle if it is not followed by a proper PCT (Post Cycle Therapy).

The media wants to demonize steroids so they can sell more papers, and to link illness that happens to millions of people who doesn't use steroids to them I believe is a bit of cherrypicking. I haven't used steroids ever in my life but I have read enough about them to know they are not the poison the media portrays. Some stupid user injects 1 gram of winstrol weekly and then go heavy drinking the weekends to enjoy his brand new body, guess what happen to him? the liver cannot stand both the stanozolol and the alcohol and breaks down, so you them see him yellow in the face and blames it on the steroid use neglecting the fact that he drinked a lot while on cycle. I was once prescribed Dilantin for epilepsy treatment (thanks god I am cured of that already) and the first thing the doctor told me was to quit the drinking as my liver can't stand both the medication and the alcohol breakdown. I spent 2 years without smelling alcohol until I quit the Dilantin as my epilepsy attacks never happened again in 2 years.

Back to the baseball issue, at this point the only way to solve this mess right now is releasing the list of the 104 players that tested positive in 2003 and be over with it already, I have a gut feeling that the next one to fall will be Vladimir Guerrero.

 

[ExtremeR]

Does anybody know what drugs were tested for in the ref'd 2003 test?

I believe it was a test for every enhancing performance drug, which includes a lot more than just steroids, is very likely that the list is very similar to the one used now.

 

[Cleef]

Well said

I don't know about this. Sammy the former shoeshine boy has lived a life that many can only dream of.

He got the adulation, he got paid, and will live the rest of his days as a rich man without a care in the world.

Now, the sportswriters of America want you to think they are going to right these wrongs by withholding induction into the Hall Of Fame, lording it over Sosas' head as if it meant entry into the pearly gates of Heaven.

Regardless of what Sosa says or doesn't say, he doesn't care. No one that profited on his side cares(friends, family, entourage) and the Dominican people don't care.

All these players cheated to get paid, and they will continue to do so as long as guys like Angel Presinal continue to hold godlike status in the DR in the eyes of young Dominican ballplayers.

Regardless of what we here think, they all want to be the next Sammy Sosa. And I'm sure they aren't too particular as to how they get there.

And that's pretty much it. No Dominican baseball players are choir boys, they do what they have to, to "win" money (as they say).

Earn money? That's a completely different attitude.

I wouldn't bet that Sammy will be a rich man for long, whether he cares or not, that's again, a different topic all together.

He had his time in the spotlight, and to a man, we can all agree, he had a great time doing it. All the power to you Sammy. May the rest of your days spent in that huge pile of cement you call a home, be wonderful.

He couldn't find Cooperstown on a map if you told him what state it's in. Actually, very few could!

 

[A.Hidalgo]

I don't know about this. Sammy the former shoeshine boy has lived a life that many can only dream of.

He got the adulation, he got paid, and will live the rest of his days as a rich man without a care in the world.

Now, the sportswriters of America want you to think they are going to right these wrongs by withholding induction into the Hall Of Fame, lording it over Sosas' head as if it meant entry into the pearly gates of Heaven.

Regardless of what Sosa says or doesn't say, he doesn't care. No one that profited on his side cares(friends, family, entourage) and the Dominican people don't care.

All these players cheated to get paid, and they will continue to do so as long as guys like Angel Presinal continue to hold godlike status in the DR in the eyes of young Dominican ballplayers.

Regardless of what we here think, they all want to be the next Sammy Sosa. And I'm sure they aren't too particular as to how they get there.

Au contraire. The fact that for the last 4 years or so the man has used his lawyer, forgotten to speak English, or just flat out dodged the questions about his usage signals to me that he is very preocupado indeed. To me one that comes close to not caring is Canseco, but i do give him credit for spilling his guts. As the saying goes "the thruth will set you free".

 

[cobraboy]

To imply that steroids had to do with all those illness is ignorant at best, while steroids are harmful if you use them the wrong way, it won't by any means cause heart enlargement (LOL, only HGH could cause that, and that is not a steroid), brain cancer and may cause liver damage but no liver cancer unless you are injecting boatloads of stanozolol (winstrol) or any 17-nor type steroids, that is asuming those guys didn't drink alcohol. Drop dead heart attacks happens to millions of people every day who doesn't use steroids (high blood pressure and being overweight the most related causes) and depression may follow up a cycle if it is not followed by a proper PCT (Post Cycle Therapy).

Funny how most of my freinds from playing ball that took steroids have had all sorts of problems as I posted earlier. And those that didn't are in fairly normal health today, considering their age.

Some helpful information:

AAS and mental health

Taken together, the preclinical, clinical, and anecdotal reports suggest that steroids may contribute to psychiatric dysfunction. Research shows that abuse of anabolic steroids may lead to aggression and other adverse effects.1 For example, many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but extreme mood swings can also occur, including manic-like symptoms that could lead to violence.2 Researchers have also observed that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.

~snip~

What Other Adverse Effects do AAS Have on Health?

Steroid abuse can lead to serious, even irreversible health problems. Some of the most dangerous among them include liver damage, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other reported effects include renal failure, severe acne, and trembling. In addition, there are some gender- and age-specific adverse effects:

For men?shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer

For women?growth of facial hair, male-pattern baldness, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the clitoris, deepened voice

For adolescents?stunted growth due to premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes; adolescents risk not reaching their expected height if they take AAS before the typical adolescent growth spurt

Steroids (Anabolic-Androgenic) - InfoFacts - NIDA

There are probably a number of folks who have taken steroids with no problems, and maybe my friends took the crudest forms of them years ago.

I'm not saying to ban them. I'm just saying the records since '94 are tainrted, IMO. Heck, I'm all for an All-Steroid League...:cheeky:

 

[Berzin]

Au contraire. The fact that for the last 4 years or so the man has used his lawyer, forgotten to speak English, or just flat out dodged the questions about his usage signals to me that he is very preocupado indeed. To me one that comes close to not caring is Canseco, but i do give him credit for spilling his guts. As the saying goes "the thruth will set you free".

No, it means that Sammy Sosa is a liar. And one thing liars love to do is lie, and if they can do it in front of a room full of people then yes they will go for it no questions asked.

Plus, I'm sure he was given some pretty awful legal advice despite the fact that his lawyer was probably charging him $1,000 an hour plus expenses to go with him to Capital Hill just to make him look like a fool.

Think about how out of touch with reality Sosa is to make a statement like this("I'll wait patiently for my induction into the HOF") knowing that he had flunked the same steroid test that A-Rod did in 2003, as if the test results were never going to see the light of day, or now that he's been linked to Angel Presinal, the steroid guru for Dominican baseball.

How ironic that Sosa, while building his mansion in the DR, had an exact replica of the stairway from the movie "The Titanic" built into his living room.

I wonder if he'll stand by the top of the steps with a brandy in his hand as the waters rush in to engulf his little house of cards.

 

[Chip]

Call me nostalgic, but I was holding out hope that Sammy wouldn't let me down. Living here in the DR I well understand the opportunistic attitude of the locals not to mention many people clear lack of respect for steroids, but I thought somehow Sammy had been able to make the transition. I'm still holding out hope against hope that the performance enhancing drug he did was not steroids.

Speaking of steroid use among Dominicans, it is in rampant use here in the gyms as witnessed by the size of many guys who train using wholly ineffectual and incorrect methods (ever see a Dominican sweat?). Also, as most locals get their information by word of mouth and form opinions based mostly on consensus, one can see the ease at which scientifically proved information can easily be dismissed. It's funny, one local guy who was naturally about my size ( 5'7" 170-175 lbs) was telling me the danger of steroids, even though he takes enough to maintain about 50 pounds of muscle over his natural bodyweight - I hope he quits before it does him lasting damage.

 

[cobraboy]

Call me nostalgic, but I was holding out hope that Sammy wouldn't let me down. Living here in the DR I well understand the opportunistic attitude of the locals not to mention many people clear lack of respect for steroids, but I thought somehow Sammy had been able to make the transition. I'm still holding out hope against hope that the performance enhancing drug he did was not steroids.

Speaking of steroid use among Dominicans, it is in rampant use here in the gyms as witnessed by the size of many guys who train using wholly ineffectual and incorrect methods (ever see a Dominican sweat?). Also, as most locals get their information by word of mouth and form opinions based mostly on consensus, one can see the ease at which scientifically proved information can easily be dismissed. It's funny, one local guy who was naturally about my size ( 5'7" 170-175 lbs) was telling me the danger of steroids, even though he takes enough to maintain about 50 pounds of muscle over his natural bodyweight - I hope he quits before it does him lasting damage.

I see 'roided muscleheads walking around Jarabacoa. The unnatural broadened foreheads and prominent cheeks give them away...

 

[Berzin]

To imply that steroids had to do with all those illness is ignorant at best, while steroids are harmful if you use them the wrong way, it won't by any means cause heart enlargement, brain cancer and may cause liver damage but no liver cancer unless you are injecting boatloads of stanozolol (winstrol) or any 17-nor type steroids, that is assuming those guys didn't drink alcohol. Drop dead heart attacks happens to millions of people every day who doesn't use steroids (high blood pressure and being overweight the most related causes) and depression may follow up a cycle if it is not followed by a proper PCT(Post Cycle Therapy).

Anyone who thinks that steroid use can be safe and will not cause further problems down the line is being willfully ignorant.

The fact of the matter is, no one in the scientific community knows with absolute certainty what the results of prolonged steroid use are because the type of studies needed to be done are deemed unethical.

So anything you read about steroid consumption being safe short or long term is nothing but anecdotal hogwash and propaganda spewed by the pro-steroid crowd.

Speaking of steroid use among Dominicans, it is in rampant use here in the gyms as witnessed by the size of many guys who train using wholly ineffectual and incorrect methods(ever see a Dominican sweat?).

Also, as most locals get their information by word of mouth and form opinions based mostly on consensus, one can see the ease at which scientifically proved information can easily be dismissed.

There is no safe way to throw off a person's endocrine system without repercussions. The mood swings, the 'roid rages, the post-cycle depression-tell me how safe any of that sounds. Add to this the point Chip made about most steroid users not knowing what they are doing and it's a recipe for disaster.

You cannot do one steroid cycle after another and expect everything to be just fine when you are done. The body does not recover. Testosterone, EPO and HGH production shuts down when an artificial source of these hormones is introduced into the body, to the point where after prolonged use the body permanently shuts them down.

The scientific studies necessary to connect these dots will probably never be done, but I think it is irresponsible to assume that there will be no long-lasting effects of prolonged, irresponsibly administered steroid regimens.

 

[ExtremeR]

Anyone who thinks that steroid use can be safe and will not cause further problems down the line is being willfully ignorant.

The fact of the matter is, no one in the scientific community knows with absolute certainty what the results of prolonged steroid use are because the type of studies needed to be done are deemed unethical.

So anything you read about steroid consumption being safe short or long term is nothing but anecdotal hogwash and propaganda spewed by the pro-steroid crowd.




There is no safe way to throw off a person's endocrine system without repercussions. The mood swings, the 'roid rages, the post-cycle depression-tell me how safe any of that sounds. Add to this the point Chip made about most steroid users not knowing what they are doing and it's a recipe for disaster.

You cannot do one steroid cycle after another and expect everything to be just fine when you are done. The body does not recover. Testosterone, EPO and HGH production shuts down when an artificial source of these hormones is introduced into the body, to the point where after prolonged use the body permanently shuts them down.

The scientific studies necessary to connect these dots will probably never be done, but I think it is irresponsible to assume that there will be no long-lasting effects of prolonged, irresponsibly administered steroid regimens.

Steroid use with proper knowledge (not hogwash anecdotes as you call it) is safe with the proper follow up and the only longer term side effect you could expect is hair loss. Now steroid ABUSE is another thing and yes could trigger short term damage and long term damage.

Scenario 1: a kid who is 18 years old gets some Deca Durabolin in his hand and believes he will convert into Arnold within 2 months of using it. Deca being a 19-nor steroid suppress natural testosterone production really hard (to 0 within a couple of shots) and then our individual experiences a hard "crash" as there is no testosterone (only nandrolone) in his body. Depression starts to mounts on (have you seen a castrated dog?), only wants to sleep, suffers from impotence so he can't enjoy his brand new body, his sperm count goes to 0 and what is worse; his growth is stalled completely which at 18 was very likely to continue. He then shuts Deca with no proper PCT and his natural testosterone production is still at 0 for a couple of months because Deca metabolites are still circulating his body, so he lose all his muscle gains while on cycle and then more, which triggers everybody to wonder if he have AIDS or a terminal illness, no strength whatsoever and he is completely miserable. Only a year later our individual starts to see the light as his natural testosterone production is starting to kick off. If he would have read a little more about them he would have known better that at his age steroids is not a very good idea (people below 24 shouldn't even think about it).

Scenario 2: A experienced lifter at 27 does his research about steroids and decides he would try Testosterone Enanthate with the proper follow up and PCT. He injects his 500 mg of Enanthate weekly along with Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG, the stuff Manny got caught) so his balls won't stop producing natural testosterone and don't shrink. Check his blood levels periodically on cycle for liver levels and has an eye on his blood pressure (which is unlikely to rise on testosterone alone), the side effects that this individual likely would experience is water retention while on cycle (which goes off after you finish it), hair loss if prone to it and maybe acne. When the lifter finish his cycle, after gaining 20 pounds of muscle, he then goes to the PCT, which could be based on Nolvadex and Clomid which are Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) which helps with the kickback of natural testosterone production and gynecomastia prevention along with the HCG which should continue in the PCT. After he finishes off his PCT he is left with 90% of the muscle he gained while on cycle, normal testosterone production as if he never cycled, added strength, lost all water retention and no problem to his health whatsoever because he used his cycle the smart way, didn't abuse of the steroid and always performed a follow up on his health.

About roid rage that is very similar to those people who are very friendly when they are sober and when they drink a couple of beers they transform completely to assholes so bad nobody could be next to them. They are assholes who simply can't control themselves and will always have Anger Management problems. Roid rage is the exact same thing, as more hormones are circulating the user body, aggression may increase, but it is up to the user to control that added aggression/emotion.

The biggest example that steroids don't do longer lasting damage when used correctly are the ballplayers themselves, look at Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield still playing and hitting long homers as we speak. Canseco hasn't had any huge health problem to date and you haven't heard a single death to be linked to steroid consumption, though the same cannot be said about alcohol and recreational drugs (A lot of kids die every day because of excessive alcohol consumption, even in the last Semana Santa here I heard of a couple dying).

About MLB I believe the steroid use was so rampant in those years (97-2003) that the effects neutralized itself around the league, a roided pitcher pitching to a roided hitter, who has the advantage??

 

[cobraboy]

About roid rage that is very similar to those people who are very friendly when they are sober and when they drink a couple of beers they transform completely to assholes so bad nobody could be next to them. They are assholes who simply can't control themselves and will always have Anger Management problems. Roid rage is the exact same thing, as more hormones are circulating the user body, aggression may increase, but it is up to the user to control that added aggression/emotion.

You could not be more wrong.

I experienced the emotional effects of steroids myself (granted, crude ones). I'm a level-keeled guy IRL, not a whole lot bothers me and I and count the number of "temper tantrums" I've had in my life on one hand.

But not on dianabol (15mg a day, a modest, smaller dosage). In two weeks I felt angry unside. I'd focus on something irritating...like the way a professor would use particular words...and become a trembling, angry mess, ready to lash out. I lost a GF to my aggressive behavior. I started the only fight of my life on the practice field, I got tackled and attacked the guy, wanted to KILL him. I would be in a bar and just ~WANT~ some guy to bump into me. I was sullen and depressed and then go to anger and hostility. It all went away within a week of stopping 'roids.

Nope. You're wrong. 'Roid rage is real.

 

[Chip]

Nope. You're wrong. 'Roid rage is real.

Who can forget the famous wrestler who killed his only son, wife and himself in a fit of rage?

 

[Berzin]

ExtremeR previously stated that he..

1) Has no first-hand experience with steroids and...

2) Attained his "knowledge"(LOL!!!) from "reading" about the subject on the internet.

What he fails to mention is that a person cannot naturally maintain any amount of artificially enhanced muscle once the body goes back to producing it's own natural levels, which could sometimes take months after a cycle has been concluded depending on the individual. Not everyone reacts the same way.

So after you douse your system with 4 to 10 times the amount of testosterone it naturally produces(the amount needed to pack on 20 or more pounds of muscle) even if you get your post cycle therapy(PCT) right your body will have to produce more natural testosterone than normal just to maintain the added muscle.

How is THAT going to happen? Oh yes, another cycle of more crap to put into your system...

Testosterone alters mood. You will not find a reputable doctor anywhere who will tell you with a straight face that rising and falling testosterone levels do not affect libido and aggression. To say this is not so is a straight-up lie.

Show me a study done by any legitimate source like the New England Journal of Medicine that has done long-term studies on the efficacy and safety of steroid use for purposes of athletic performance.

The medical field in the US will not touch this subject due to the moral and ethical implications and possible long-term health risks for anyone willing to participate in such a study.

It is not difficult to find self-serving literature on just about any subject condoning any type of behavior on the internet, so I'm not surprised when people take what is written about steroid use by a bunch of jacked-up 'roid heads on some internet site as the gospel truth.

But this whole subject fits in well with a certain percentage of Dominicans who think there is a shortcut to EVERYTHING and that doing it the hard way does not apply to them.

 

[cobraboy]

The medical field in the US will not touch this subject due to the moral and ethical implications and possible long-term health risks for anyone willing to participate in such a study.

And the sample size of former/current users is very small.

 

[? bient?t]

ExtremeR previously stated that he..

1) Has no first-hand experience with steroids and...

2) Attained his "knowledge"(LOL!!!) from "reading" about the subject on the internet.



But this whole subject fits in well with a certain percentage of Dominicans who think there is a shortcut to EVERYTHING and that doing it the hard way does not apply to them.

At least ExtremeR does not make big claims. You, on the other hand, have become quite the expert on all things Dominican, much like your hero AZB.

 

[ExtremeR]

Berzin, yes that is correct I haven't touched steroids, but I've known several people who does. And the "knowledge" that you mock of I've attained was reading in sites that preach "health-first" use approach and if necessary not any use at all (there is a series of requisites to comply with if you want to use it the right way like being in shape and older than 24 just to mention 2).

For example Berzin you state this: "So after you douse your system with 4 to 10 times the amount of testosterone it naturally produces(the amount needed to pack on 20 or more pounds of muscle) even if you get your post cycle therapy(PCT) right your body will have to produce more natural testosterone than normal just to maintain the added muscle. "

First off from where do you get that wrongful fact?? Every case of losing all gains that you and I have witnessed is due to no PCT and dubious diet. I've known several people who has been able to hold 90% of what was gained 8 months after the cycle just with the proper PCT and a very protein heavy diet (4,500 calories minimum). You have to stop speculating just to prove your point, you have no base to make that claim, yet demand me a study to refute your speculation. I've known several people who had pulled that off.

The point of the PCT is to not crash the testosterone production so when the cycle is over you would have your normal or almost normal testosterone production which is enough with a heavy diet to MAINTAIN the added muscle.

Cobraboy, well your experience is a tangible one and I have to respect that. I have never doubted that the increase level in hormones would make your emotions go wild, what I mentioned is that people should be able to control their emotions, it is the same when someone starts drinking and gets happy (not even drunk), then he becomes an asshole nobody could be near off, chances are that person was an asshole in the first place. My friends have mentioned me that they feel more aggressive but nothing they couldn't control, so maybe if you were having problems in life before using steroids chances are those problems would've been magnified on them. In your case specifically Cobra you took D-bol alone, without test, so chances are you didn't have any test running on your body by mid-cycle leading you to depression and frustration.

But anyway I think we are going off-topic here you guys would want to believe the media and demonize them and I would reject those "poisons" claims. Enough, let's talk about baseball. This is an interesting editorial that appeared in the NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

 

[Berzin]

ExtremeR-you are talking like an expert about something you have no expertise in. None whatsoever.

You are not an endocrinologist, nor any other type of physician.

You've never done a steroid cycle, so you've never experienced any of the bad effects nor have you seen any of the bad effects from other users-or so you claim.

Have you ever been around a guy who is taking massive amounts of calories like you state to keep his weight up?

I'm sure it's a barrel of laughs hanging out with someone who farts 400 times a day. Just like the Seinfeld episode when Kramer fed his horse Beefarino.

Or a guy on a 'roid cycle who gets diarrhea attacks so violent to the point where he can't control his bowel movements and has to defecate on himself, sometimes in public.

And the mood swings, which are uncontrollable despite what you believe.

Speak to these guys' girlfriends, they'll tell you what it's like to live with someone on a 'roid cycle.

Come to the battered women's shelter I volunteer in once a week and you can tell some of these poor women how the violence they've experienced at the hands of their once docile boyfriends pre-'roids is nothing but a figment of their imagination.

For someone who claims to not be on the juice, it makes me wonder why you spend time on these so-called health forums researching crap like this.

 

[Mr. Lu]

.....

All these players cheated to get paid, and they will continue to do so as long as guys like Angel Presinal continue to hold godlike status in the DR in the eyes of young Dominican ballplayers.

That's the key right there. Angel Persinal. The mule for all this garbage and in the DR he is the baseball GOD. He is banned by MLB and yet many Dominican players still associate themselves with him. Says a lot. Too much. But what's most worrisome is that no one cares here. No one. Ask a Dominican friend what they opine of steroids and the answer will be, "Un chin de puya no es na..."


Mr. Lu

 

[Mr. Lu]

.......

Speaking of steroid use among Dominicans, it is in rampant use here in the gyms as witnessed by the size of many guys who train using wholly ineffectual and incorrect methods (ever see a Dominican sweat?). Also, as most locals get their information by word of mouth and form opinions based mostly on consensus, one can see the ease at which scientifically proved information can easily be dismissed. It's funny, one local guy who was naturally about my size ( 5'7" 170-175 lbs) was telling me the danger of steroids, even though he takes enough to maintain about 50 pounds of muscle over his natural bodyweight - I hope he quits before it does him lasting damage.

To be honest, never really see the gym buffs sweat. I see the roid heads in the gym lifting 25lb. dumbells, yet they have 18 inch arms!!!!!!! They walk around as if they are king of the world and then stand next to their machines preaching the gospel of their "workout routine."

Mr. Lu

 

[ExtremeR]

Berzin, and again you just try to refute me with less knowledge than I have, maybe your source of knowledge to argue this is ESPN??

I don't use it because I like my body the way it is right now, don't need it. I am at 185 lbs 13% bodyfat, and I am not willing to fork out RD$10,000 pesos for a cycle that I don't want or need.

Cobraboy's opinion is valid and I respect his because he used when he was young, but you haven't used, haven't read about it, don't know the difference between orals and injectables, your whole source of information is the media that wants to blame all problems in humankind to steroids, and then you want to keep refuting me?? backed up by the social ignorance in the subject?? right now I believe alcohol does more harm to society than a well thought cycle.

About the diet maybe 4500 calories is more than necessary and a lot, but I have been on 3800 calories diet and is not anything near what you suggest it is. Stop watching Seinfeld and start reading about nutrition, is a proven fact that if you want to increase or maintain muscle weight in your body you have to intake at least your weight in grams of protein and at least 3000-3500 calories depending on your weight.

I suggest you start reading about steroids a bit more before condemning it along with the crowd, yes they have side effects even some have nasty ones when used in a careless manner, but yes you could take them in a intelligent and careful manner without having any short or long term damage. I haven't heard of a baseball player having problems due to steroid use yet, hell most of them are still playing.