Tainos in the DR?
Mirador, I almost understand you not taking too much stock in genetic studies, but I assure you that if you were a suspect in a crime that you did not commit and there was only DNA evidence to exonerate you, I doubt that you would be skeptical then.
DNA is what it is and it is one of the most complete sciences we have. It is not theoretical like string theory or m theory in physics. The human genome has been been traced.
I am at work with my family and we are hosting a Pow-wow not an Areito. We have those in the summer and hundreds of Caribbean families attend. Would you like to come to one?
DNA is what it is and it is one of the most complete sciences we have. It is not theoretical like string theory or m theory in physics. The human genome has been been traced.
I am at work with my family and we are hosting a Pow-wow not an Areito. We have those in the summer and hundreds of Caribbean families attend. Would you like to come to one?
Quote posted previously removed. (No need to post that which was posted earlier as it has already been read. This is a conversation and you state in your first sentence who you are addressing).
To superconejo Bata, Banda, Bomba, Batucar, Bicho, Bobo, ?o?o, bonbon,chumbando, grifo, gayumba, gre?a, guandu, Yeyo, Guinea, Guineo, Mango, Moco
superconejo, before you say something , you should think first. the spanish language dont have any contribution from the african language. tell me african linguistic or word is no even close to spanish. bata , banda , bomba, bicho , yeyo , mango , grena grifo are words from spanish. to learn something the origen of mango is from spain why the spain will ask african how to call mango or where spain govern by africa.
Think , bata, banda , bomba doesnt even exist in african language so according to you because the spanish america has african this world are used in spanish. all south , central, north mexico use these words because they have african think about this sound a little funny.
Do the african use bomba , banda , bata if they live as primitive think about. word ending la ne only spanish languange use this rule even romantic language doesnt use this rule.
something to learn always or usually a language takes a word from another language becuase the object doesnt exist in that language or that country colonize the other. spain took some word arabic because they were governed by arabic for more the 100 years. other word that spanish took were from native of america becuase these things didnt exist in their language e.g. papaya, yuca, casabe, tabaco, bohio , hamaca , canoa .
tell me do you have ever look at the dictionary from the academia espanola they tell you from word coming from.
think or read history , quisqueya had the smaller percentage of african brought to america by spain smaller than cuba , puerto rico and other spanish country but now it has really a large population. it is not a considence that haiti is next to quisqueya and the cocolo brought by haitian during the invasion, quisqueya has a large black population. you will find that most of black dominican or mulato have haitians descendants. look that the south have the large blacks population. this is not a considence that haiti is close to the south and santo domingo. the cocolo population has introduce some african and english tradition to quisqueya. why quisqueya doesnt have african tradition or word because the black population was really small and the one was brought from spain and they can speak spanish. This is in the history and you can read book about.
In central and mexico they dont have that much black becuase they were killed by them and the other died.
Another thing, the guy that you put in the picture becuase it is dark it is black with native. I know people from peru and ecuador has the same color and native ficture but this guy have more native ficture that my friend from ecuador and peru. Colon says that most of the native of america were dark skin depend to what country he went. he said that the native of quisqueya was lighter skin than the other that he saw. do you think somebody father black and mother native will become with that natine ficture unless his father was a mulato. somebody combine with father or mother black will become with strong naive ficture. the answer is no the black race is strong. I know people from colombia that has native and black and they are not close to this boy. this boy has very strong native ficture. you see laura in america and you will see people that have black and native dont look that native in peru.
back again superconejo look the spanish word and history word , you wont see african word. I will give a trophy if you get me that word with prove. and also try in qusiqueya but also with prove. tell me something you are not white or mestizo or even close to mulato. where you are really from superconejo. I hope the moderator doesnt threaten me because the last two question. he is so sensetive when you ask about blacks the unverse when you ask about white or native. why is that moderator.
To superconejo Bata, Banda, Bomba, Batucar, Bicho, Bobo, ?o?o, bonbon,chumbando, grifo, gayumba, gre?a, guandu, Yeyo, Guinea, Guineo, Mango, Moco
superconejo, before you say something , you should think first. the spanish language dont have any contribution from the african language. tell me african linguistic or word is no even close to spanish. bata , banda , bomba, bicho , yeyo , mango , grena grifo are words from spanish. to learn something the origen of mango is from spain why the spain will ask african how to call mango or where spain govern by africa.
Think , bata, banda , bomba doesnt even exist in african language so according to you because the spanish america has african this world are used in spanish. all south , central, north mexico use these words because they have african think about this sound a little funny.
Do the african use bomba , banda , bata if they live as primitive think about. word ending la ne only spanish languange use this rule even romantic language doesnt use this rule.
something to learn always or usually a language takes a word from another language becuase the object doesnt exist in that language or that country colonize the other. spain took some word arabic because they were governed by arabic for more the 100 years. other word that spanish took were from native of america becuase these things didnt exist in their language e.g. papaya, yuca, casabe, tabaco, bohio , hamaca , canoa .
tell me do you have ever look at the dictionary from the academia espanola they tell you from word coming from.
think or read history , quisqueya had the smaller percentage of african brought to america by spain smaller than cuba , puerto rico and other spanish country but now it has really a large population. it is not a considence that haiti is next to quisqueya and the cocolo brought by haitian during the invasion, quisqueya has a large black population. you will find that most of black dominican or mulato have haitians descendants. look that the south have the large blacks population. this is not a considence that haiti is close to the south and santo domingo. the cocolo population has introduce some african and english tradition to quisqueya. why quisqueya doesnt have african tradition or word because the black population was really small and the one was brought from spain and they can speak spanish. This is in the history and you can read book about.
In central and mexico they dont have that much black becuase they were killed by them and the other died.
Another thing, the guy that you put in the picture becuase it is dark it is black with native. I know people from peru and ecuador has the same color and native ficture but this guy have more native ficture that my friend from ecuador and peru. Colon says that most of the native of america were dark skin depend to what country he went. he said that the native of quisqueya was lighter skin than the other that he saw. do you think somebody father black and mother native will become with that natine ficture unless his father was a mulato. somebody combine with father or mother black will become with strong naive ficture. the answer is no the black race is strong. I know people from colombia that has native and black and they are not close to this boy. this boy has very strong native ficture. you see laura in america and you will see people that have black and native dont look that native in peru.
back again superconejo look the spanish word and history word , you wont see african word. I will give a trophy if you get me that word with prove. and also try in qusiqueya but also with prove. tell me something you are not white or mestizo or even close to mulato. where you are really from superconejo. I hope the moderator doesnt threaten me because the last two question. he is so sensetive when you ask about blacks the unverse when you ask about white or native. why is that moderator.
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First of all El Mero Mero, i can send you to a library rihgt now to look for the the Dictionary of AfroLatinos, which is where i got 90% of my words from. YES they are african words, go do the simplest thing and look at a map of angola and u'll find words used in the african diaspora, such as bomba and bembe. Before you say anything you should get your history straight. It is very extensively and thoroughly documented that spain and portugal had African slaves since the early 1400s, and probably even before that. Most of them were female slaves and they worked in the household, that could have easily contributed to the way the children spoke as they grew up, learning words from the Nanny. And also Arabic itself is an Afro-asiatic language, ask any linguist. Africans are not and never have been primitive, maybe in your eyes. There was advanced and non-advanced civilizations all throught african before an during slavery. The maroon of mexico Yanga was a prince of the Kongo kingdom, extending many miles across west-central africa. I wont even bother to explain the rest, this is things u should already know.
You make ridiculous statements, of how d.r received less slaves then puertorico and cuba! LOL. Maybe cuba, that i can give you(We seem to have a contradiction in terms here). But less salves then puertorico come on. Also not every black domincan has haitian or cocolo ancestry, there are some yes, and besides it is not distinct, Haiti and The smaller antillies shape the Dominican Republic today, Sin Ayiti no Hai Quisqueya. Your acting like the spanish controlled side of the island was a mestizo heaven, with a few africans here and there. LOL. It was more like a place full of Africans, Afro-Europeans, Zambos, Grifos and everything in between. D.R is included in the same category as all the other Afrocarribean islands, all of which also have a Arawak/Taino component and some european components as well, like Jamaica. Every researcher and scholar will tell you IMPORTED slave # statistics are super unreliable, to the point that they are never taken seriously. D.R received way more slaves then puertorico, like i mentioned before and i guess u didnt read. A large % of slaves who came into D.R came in illegally through trading wtih Curacao. They were smuggled in from Puerto Plata and Santo Domingo. Since at this time the Dutch had the stronghold of the slavetrade. The outnumbering of Africans to Spanish in the dominican republic is very extensively documented by the spanish themselves! It got to the point were it was like 10 to 1 of Africans to Spanish. Spain even panicked about it and encouraged more migration of whites to the island.
I highliy suggest u get educated about Linguistic and reads John M. Lipsky's work. He's one of the best linguistic scholars out there. and has done tons of field research on afro creoles. Including Dominican spanish, Haitian Kreyol, Venezuelan Congo Spanish, Colombian Palenkero, Bolivian Yungan Spanish, Afropuertorican spanish and many others.
John Lipski-recent papers
Heres one map with some of the words
http://unimaps.com/congo-zaire/mainmap.gif
You will see Bumba which is pretty much the same as Bomba, and written out exactly the same you have Banda.
http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/worldguide/maps2/887_a.jpg
On the east coast u'll see the word Bata and others.
What are you gonna say about that, the spanish conqured Gabon, Congo and Angola? LOL.
Thats just scratching the surface. Read the linguistics paper to get a better understading of the African impact in spanish dialects. Specially the Dominican Republic.
Heres some evidence, read the linguistic work of John M. Lipsky. Another thing theres no such thing as a "Black Race" "Black" Africans are the most diverse people in the world, genetically and physically. From short to tall, to yellow to pitch black. And these are unmixed africans i'm talking about. With wide ranges of phenotype. That assumption that Africans + Native doesn't include that boy is stupid. I never said he was 50/50. But if he's 60 - 70% native and 30% african he can easily come out like that. I've seen plenty of colombian zambos like that. Straight haired, with mostly native features, but very dark skin that doesnt have the same reddish undertone as alot of natives.
Last, i dont use any of those colonial words to identify myself. I have a blend of ancestries that i nkow of. I have African, Spanish and a lil bit of Taino. I consider the word mestizo or mulatto offensive. Look up Mulatto it means Mule in Arabic, was used by some of the lighter moors who had black wives to label their children. I am not a Mule, I am 100% human.
You make ridiculous statements, of how d.r received less slaves then puertorico and cuba! LOL. Maybe cuba, that i can give you(We seem to have a contradiction in terms here). But less salves then puertorico come on. Also not every black domincan has haitian or cocolo ancestry, there are some yes, and besides it is not distinct, Haiti and The smaller antillies shape the Dominican Republic today, Sin Ayiti no Hai Quisqueya. Your acting like the spanish controlled side of the island was a mestizo heaven, with a few africans here and there. LOL. It was more like a place full of Africans, Afro-Europeans, Zambos, Grifos and everything in between. D.R is included in the same category as all the other Afrocarribean islands, all of which also have a Arawak/Taino component and some european components as well, like Jamaica. Every researcher and scholar will tell you IMPORTED slave # statistics are super unreliable, to the point that they are never taken seriously. D.R received way more slaves then puertorico, like i mentioned before and i guess u didnt read. A large % of slaves who came into D.R came in illegally through trading wtih Curacao. They were smuggled in from Puerto Plata and Santo Domingo. Since at this time the Dutch had the stronghold of the slavetrade. The outnumbering of Africans to Spanish in the dominican republic is very extensively documented by the spanish themselves! It got to the point were it was like 10 to 1 of Africans to Spanish. Spain even panicked about it and encouraged more migration of whites to the island.
I highliy suggest u get educated about Linguistic and reads John M. Lipsky's work. He's one of the best linguistic scholars out there. and has done tons of field research on afro creoles. Including Dominican spanish, Haitian Kreyol, Venezuelan Congo Spanish, Colombian Palenkero, Bolivian Yungan Spanish, Afropuertorican spanish and many others.
John Lipski-recent papers
Heres one map with some of the words
http://unimaps.com/congo-zaire/mainmap.gif
You will see Bumba which is pretty much the same as Bomba, and written out exactly the same you have Banda.
http://www.intute.ac.uk/sciences/worldguide/maps2/887_a.jpg
On the east coast u'll see the word Bata and others.
What are you gonna say about that, the spanish conqured Gabon, Congo and Angola? LOL.
Thats just scratching the surface. Read the linguistics paper to get a better understading of the African impact in spanish dialects. Specially the Dominican Republic.
Heres some evidence, read the linguistic work of John M. Lipsky. Another thing theres no such thing as a "Black Race" "Black" Africans are the most diverse people in the world, genetically and physically. From short to tall, to yellow to pitch black. And these are unmixed africans i'm talking about. With wide ranges of phenotype. That assumption that Africans + Native doesn't include that boy is stupid. I never said he was 50/50. But if he's 60 - 70% native and 30% african he can easily come out like that. I've seen plenty of colombian zambos like that. Straight haired, with mostly native features, but very dark skin that doesnt have the same reddish undertone as alot of natives.
Last, i dont use any of those colonial words to identify myself. I have a blend of ancestries that i nkow of. I have African, Spanish and a lil bit of Taino. I consider the word mestizo or mulatto offensive. Look up Mulatto it means Mule in Arabic, was used by some of the lighter moors who had black wives to label their children. I am not a Mule, I am 100% human.
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Okay, a little fighting within the ?Debates? forum is always a ?given? but there is something that you ?NEWBIES? must understand!!!
DR1 is a public forum with rules. It is in conjunction with these rules that make DR1 the success that it is. As you seem to have failed to look up the rules then it would be understandable to ask ?what are the rules??.
All threads and posts must be DR related. (An exception to this would be the ?Clown Bin? and the ?Dominicans Abroad? forums).
You are to keep your posts related to the OP.
There will be no name calling nor will any remarks concerning a persons family or friends be allowed.
Race and religion are no to be discussed on this board.
Those are the very basic rules as they apply to this board. The creators of this board have implemented these rules and have given the moderators the authority and means to insure the rules are followed.
If a person should feel that these rules are too restrictive then I will use a statement that was made by the creator Robert? ?You call it censorship, we call it moderating. You call it freedom of speech, we just laugh and suggest you go find another website?.
I would suggest that you go back and look at what this thread is about as posted in the OP (Original Post) and get back on track. If it is your desire to talk about linguistics as it relates to the DR then I would suggest that you start your own thread concerning that matter but remember it must be DR related.
Rick
DR1 is a public forum with rules. It is in conjunction with these rules that make DR1 the success that it is. As you seem to have failed to look up the rules then it would be understandable to ask ?what are the rules??.
All threads and posts must be DR related. (An exception to this would be the ?Clown Bin? and the ?Dominicans Abroad? forums).
You are to keep your posts related to the OP.
There will be no name calling nor will any remarks concerning a persons family or friends be allowed.
Race and religion are no to be discussed on this board.
Those are the very basic rules as they apply to this board. The creators of this board have implemented these rules and have given the moderators the authority and means to insure the rules are followed.
If a person should feel that these rules are too restrictive then I will use a statement that was made by the creator Robert? ?You call it censorship, we call it moderating. You call it freedom of speech, we just laugh and suggest you go find another website?.
I would suggest that you go back and look at what this thread is about as posted in the OP (Original Post) and get back on track. If it is your desire to talk about linguistics as it relates to the DR then I would suggest that you start your own thread concerning that matter but remember it must be DR related.
Rick
Rick Snyder, i understand that. I will get back on track with the topic, i just didn't want a hateful post like his going un-challenged. I understand the post is about Taino's and i got a lil off track. But some of the stuff i said deals with the subject too, nevertheless.
I have a question for Baracutay, from your research on the Tainos have you been able to rescue or pinpoint Taino origin to some of the herbal medicine practiced in D.R. My guess is that the Dominican Herbal medicine is probably a combination of African and Taino "Folk" medicines and remedies. I know the older folk, specially in the countryside use this heavily, the old folks always have a cure for everything with herbs/fruits/vegetables/animals.
I have a question for Baracutay, from your research on the Tainos have you been able to rescue or pinpoint Taino origin to some of the herbal medicine practiced in D.R. My guess is that the Dominican Herbal medicine is probably a combination of African and Taino "Folk" medicines and remedies. I know the older folk, specially in the countryside use this heavily, the old folks always have a cure for everything with herbs/fruits/vegetables/animals.
Baracutay, I?ve never been to court, except as a teenager, for a speeding ticket. When I was asked to plead, I said: ?Your honor, guilty, but with a minor reservation?. The judge asked me about my reservation, and I said: ?Your Honor, the actual speed limit sign said 30 mph, not 20 mph, as the officer has stated? I was fined accordingly, one US dollar for each mile over the speed limit. Anyway, a jury trial is a different ball game. A shrewed and fast-talking lawyer can sway the most adamant juror, since all he needs to do is establish reasonable doubt. In a court of law, scientific evidence is used within these same conviction guidelines. And jurors can be easily impressed with ?authoritative? scholars and papers, albeit they don?t understand one bit the science behind the relevant field. In reality, there are no scientific facts per se, the entire scientific field is theoretical, and ?scientific facts? are expressed in degrees of certainty, with the use of probability theory. There are no absolute scientific facts, and this also applies to the science behind genetics. Maybe we should talk in terms of ?Tainoness?, or the probability that we have, or may not have, genes derived from our Taino ancestors.
Taino'ti Guaitiao
PS I would love to join you in an 'Areito', of course, only if it is presided by el Gran Cacique Taino Baracutay... ;-)
C
Chip00
Guest
With regard to the above statement in bold as someone who studied physics, engineering, scientific theory and advanced mathematics in undergraduate and graduate school this statement may not be too far off the mark in many instances - but then again many said the atomic bomb would never work as it was just theory as well. Hey, sometimes an apple is just an.....apple!
Deleted non-thread related portions.
So case closed here, i dont want to flood this Taino thread with other subjects. Open up a new one under debates if your up to a healthy non-racist educated scholarly discussion. I dont want to step over the rules the moderator set, he has been nice so far, some moderators just erase whole posts.
So case closed here, i dont want to flood this Taino thread with other subjects. Open up a new one under debates if your up to a healthy non-racist educated scholarly discussion. I dont want to step over the rules the moderator set, he has been nice so far, some moderators just erase whole posts.
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C
Chip00
Guest
Superconejo
I don't believe that El Mero Mero is ignoring the obvious African influence in the DR, he is simply not ignoring the Taino influence as you apparently are.
Most people who don't live under a rock understand that the DR is and has been heavily influenced by it's African heritage. However, the point of this thread isn't to discuss the African influence but rather the Taino influence in the DR. There appears to be an aversion on your part towards understanding or acknowledging the obvious Taino roots in the DR as if it would make it's "Africaness" less.
The DR is a fusion of African, Spanish and Taino people, not in equal parts of course, that give it a unique culture and I don't see why the African part should be in competition with the Spanish or Taino part, or vice versa.
I don't believe that El Mero Mero is ignoring the obvious African influence in the DR, he is simply not ignoring the Taino influence as you apparently are.
Most people who don't live under a rock understand that the DR is and has been heavily influenced by it's African heritage. However, the point of this thread isn't to discuss the African influence but rather the Taino influence in the DR. There appears to be an aversion on your part towards understanding or acknowledging the obvious Taino roots in the DR as if it would make it's "Africaness" less.
The DR is a fusion of African, Spanish and Taino people, not in equal parts of course, that give it a unique culture and I don't see why the African part should be in competition with the Spanish or Taino part, or vice versa.
Chip00, if you read my posts in none of them do i ever deny Taino influence in d.r Me and Baracutay were agreeing on the fact that its a big influence in not just D.R but every carribean island and nation. The Taino part will forever be part of Dominican-Haitian culture. Its in some food, musical instruments and rich "Folk" tales, as well as natural medicines and many other things. If you read mero mero posts he completely ignores the african contribution making it seem like D.R is a mexico, he mentions that several times. At the end i just told him that he shuld make an ew thread about how he feels that Taino and Spanish only contributed to Dominican culture so we can all debate there about that subject and stop flooding the Taino thread with other things. I agree with your stance perfectly that there were those 3 influences in the dominican republic, and even others such as the Lebanese/Turkish influence in the Dominican Mercado. I just dont agree with him bashing and completely minimizing the African contribution to dominican culture. Baractuay is a very well studied, well researched and profesional Indegenista and he doesn't deny the African contribution.
Wow I leave you fine gentlemen for one day and you tear up the house! Alas, such is life!
Okay I am at work but so intrigued by these conversations that I will leave my contracts and programs for a bit so I may reply to some of these posts.
To Superconejo:
Please understand that I am in no way shape or form trying to deny African contribution to the DR. The situation (certainly) in the past has been that Black/African somehow becomes the default Identity in the Caribbean. Therefore if it isnt Spanish, it must be African. Remember Taino is a surreal, romantic figure sitting on a pedastal where no one can reach it and it must exists in that realm and that realm only.
In regards to cultural traits, especially in the usage of medicinal plants, it stands to reason that there are many factors why most of these (without denying the obvious syncretisim with African) are most Indian. First off, Native people from any country around the world have an intimate connection to the world around them. The usage of plants is one that is passed down from generation to generation and take millenia to reach a level of expertise with. For example, the usage of Yuca amarga (poison) for food purposes is very common in the DR. This is how we make casabe. Yuca has been introduced to many countries throughout the world mainly African and the Philipines. In 2005 27 children died in the Philipines from "eating tainted yuca snacks" as was reported in the New York Daily News. And in Africa many Africans suffer from "Konzo" a debilitating disease directly linked to yuca.
My point is, that even though yuca has been used in these foreign countries since colonial times, they have still not mastered its secrets and intricacies as we have in the DR where this is a Tradidional staple (and no one ever dies from eating or becomes sick from). This kind of knowledge takes a very long time to acquire. There are over 50 plants endemic to the island that are used medicinally. These must be planted in certain ways, and at certain lunar cycles. And they must also be picked at certain times of day/night. Does anyone know that Yuca for example should only be planted during a waning moon (menguante) and why?
So I feel that although there are certain practices that are very syncretic, many are quite simply Taino. Of course since the "Indian" (according to most historians) isnt supposed to exist in the DR and his legacy is watered down to nothing more than a "few" words such as Barbecue, canoe, etc then all this knowledge of course becomes African!
The last time I was in the DR I had an interesting conversation with someone at the Museo del Hombre Dominicano, regarding the Guiro. The man, obviously very Afro-centric (which is very cool by me) insisted that the Guiro was.... African! I asked him respectifully, that if the Guiro is African, then why does it have a Taino name? Further why is it that the Guiro is not found in neither Modern African music nor on the Tribal level (the closest thing being the Shekere) and his reply was "the Spanish chronicalers never wrote that the Taino used the guiro and therefore it must African. I replied that the Spanish also never mentioned the stone collars used in the Batu game played in the Batey that have been found in archeological digs and suggested that maybe these were African as well? According to this man, if the Spanish didnt write about it then and it is clearly not Spanish it must be African. And not only that! He suggested to me that I was basically anti-Haitian (funny my grandfather was half-haitian) and that I was anti-black and denying negritude and a whole tirade..........all because I ponted to an obvious flaw in his interpretation.
That said, I think that it borders on the insane for us to deny the African legacy, and Superconejo has not denied anything Taino in favor of African. He is simply staing facts about African contribution to the island. I suspect that Superconejo is as passionate as I am regarding these matter. I feel like he does when the Taino is negated. I feel like pulling my hair (grena in the morning when I wake up)! Lets get back to the subject at hand, this is not a competion of African versus Indian. This is about Tainos survival and continuities and how this fits in with evrything else.
I have to go back to work, have lots more to say and would like to explore with all of you the usage of "ei" in the cibaeno speech.......betcha its Taino!
Okay I am at work but so intrigued by these conversations that I will leave my contracts and programs for a bit so I may reply to some of these posts.
To Superconejo:
Please understand that I am in no way shape or form trying to deny African contribution to the DR. The situation (certainly) in the past has been that Black/African somehow becomes the default Identity in the Caribbean. Therefore if it isnt Spanish, it must be African. Remember Taino is a surreal, romantic figure sitting on a pedastal where no one can reach it and it must exists in that realm and that realm only.
In regards to cultural traits, especially in the usage of medicinal plants, it stands to reason that there are many factors why most of these (without denying the obvious syncretisim with African) are most Indian. First off, Native people from any country around the world have an intimate connection to the world around them. The usage of plants is one that is passed down from generation to generation and take millenia to reach a level of expertise with. For example, the usage of Yuca amarga (poison) for food purposes is very common in the DR. This is how we make casabe. Yuca has been introduced to many countries throughout the world mainly African and the Philipines. In 2005 27 children died in the Philipines from "eating tainted yuca snacks" as was reported in the New York Daily News. And in Africa many Africans suffer from "Konzo" a debilitating disease directly linked to yuca.
My point is, that even though yuca has been used in these foreign countries since colonial times, they have still not mastered its secrets and intricacies as we have in the DR where this is a Tradidional staple (and no one ever dies from eating or becomes sick from). This kind of knowledge takes a very long time to acquire. There are over 50 plants endemic to the island that are used medicinally. These must be planted in certain ways, and at certain lunar cycles. And they must also be picked at certain times of day/night. Does anyone know that Yuca for example should only be planted during a waning moon (menguante) and why?
So I feel that although there are certain practices that are very syncretic, many are quite simply Taino. Of course since the "Indian" (according to most historians) isnt supposed to exist in the DR and his legacy is watered down to nothing more than a "few" words such as Barbecue, canoe, etc then all this knowledge of course becomes African!
The last time I was in the DR I had an interesting conversation with someone at the Museo del Hombre Dominicano, regarding the Guiro. The man, obviously very Afro-centric (which is very cool by me) insisted that the Guiro was.... African! I asked him respectifully, that if the Guiro is African, then why does it have a Taino name? Further why is it that the Guiro is not found in neither Modern African music nor on the Tribal level (the closest thing being the Shekere) and his reply was "the Spanish chronicalers never wrote that the Taino used the guiro and therefore it must African. I replied that the Spanish also never mentioned the stone collars used in the Batu game played in the Batey that have been found in archeological digs and suggested that maybe these were African as well? According to this man, if the Spanish didnt write about it then and it is clearly not Spanish it must be African. And not only that! He suggested to me that I was basically anti-Haitian (funny my grandfather was half-haitian) and that I was anti-black and denying negritude and a whole tirade..........all because I ponted to an obvious flaw in his interpretation.
That said, I think that it borders on the insane for us to deny the African legacy, and Superconejo has not denied anything Taino in favor of African. He is simply staing facts about African contribution to the island. I suspect that Superconejo is as passionate as I am regarding these matter. I feel like he does when the Taino is negated. I feel like pulling my hair (grena in the morning when I wake up)! Lets get back to the subject at hand, this is not a competion of African versus Indian. This is about Tainos survival and continuities and how this fits in with evrything else.
I have to go back to work, have lots more to say and would like to explore with all of you the usage of "ei" in the cibaeno speech.......betcha its Taino!
Baracutay, i never said you were denying the African contribution i was solely referring to Lero Lero, i know your very educated on Dominican and carribean history. I didnt know about the Waning moon and the Yuka can you explain that. Its funny how you had the argument with the guy about the Guiro, Its very Taino, even the rythm, i've seen embera indians play the guiro in identical fashion to how its played in puertorican plena and close to merengue. I am very interested in medicinal plants, i know theres pure taino forms of healing in d.r too, of course, its Quisqueya and all those thousands of years testing out with plants were good and not make the original inhabitants the experts. Yes i read somewhere the the Cibaenyo I could be of Taino origin, theres a debate between that being Taino or Canary islander. I have to research that as well. The original guira is very taino like u said, its made out of a fruit i forgot the name, but it has a nice sound to it. The Original perico ripiao had an interesting esemble of instruments. A Yoruba(African) Tambora, a Taino (Guira), a Spanish Tres Guitar, and a Zimbawean(African) Marimbula. This was before the Germans brought the accordion to d.r. Can you give me insight on more Taino instruments, i love listening and playing music, specially Salves, Palos, Congos, Bomba, Merengue, Bachata, Rumba.
What is this??
Is this thread called "Africans in the DR?" or "Tainos in the DR?". I knew it would be a matter of time when this thread turns into a race-baiting thread like all the other CLOSED! threads that probably started out with good intentions but turned ugly.
To El Mero, that comment about afro-americans being confused is ignorant and giving you the benefit of the doubt, I thought you would be smarter than that. The thread is about "Tainos in the DR?", not about how many slaves were brought over or how Haitians and Cocolos infiltrated your beloved country, so take your soap-box and create another thread and don't spoil this one.
Goodbye
Is this thread called "Africans in the DR?" or "Tainos in the DR?". I knew it would be a matter of time when this thread turns into a race-baiting thread like all the other CLOSED! threads that probably started out with good intentions but turned ugly.
To El Mero, that comment about afro-americans being confused is ignorant and giving you the benefit of the doubt, I thought you would be smarter than that. The thread is about "Tainos in the DR?", not about how many slaves were brought over or how Haitians and Cocolos infiltrated your beloved country, so take your soap-box and create another thread and don't spoil this one.
Goodbye
It's good to know that Rick is on the job. I am learning alot about Tainos from this thread and would hate to see it closed.
Taiguey Guaitiaos
(Good Day Friends in Taino)
C
Chip00
Guest
Update - I communicated with Lynn Guitar and will be visiting with her soon in Santiago. As she is documenting the Taino influences I hope to have some more info for DR1 as well as show her this thread.
I also know she has many photos of people here with indegenous traits and I hope to post them or provide a link in the near future. I also think she will be quite intrigued to meet the Santiaguero that caused me to start this thread.
Jorge et al:
I also have a question as to what I see is a cultural phenomenom of the Dominicans: (amoung the poor and who that live in the campo) they are typically very generous with their posessions or the very least generous and many times seemingly unconcerned about damage to "lent" posessions. Could this be a connection to the typical flexible American Indian attitude towards posession or something else?
I also know she has many photos of people here with indegenous traits and I hope to post them or provide a link in the near future. I also think she will be quite intrigued to meet the Santiaguero that caused me to start this thread.
Jorge et al:
I also have a question as to what I see is a cultural phenomenom of the Dominicans: (amoung the poor and who that live in the campo) they are typically very generous with their posessions or the very least generous and many times seemingly unconcerned about damage to "lent" posessions. Could this be a connection to the typical flexible American Indian attitude towards posession or something else?
Thanks Chip! You are truly a man of da job! Lynne is an excellent source for very un-biased information regarding Tainos. Like I said in an earlier post she is most fond of believe it or not the African aspect of Dominican culture. She just feels that not enough attention is given to the Indian.
Anyway to answer your question regarding the "giving aspect" of the campesino. According to the chronicalers (sp) of the time, the Taino were indeed very gracious with everything they had. I have seen this in my own family and how my mothers and aunts bend over backward to make people feel at home and always gift people who visit. Thing is that this is not (to me) a uniquely Taino thing. This is also African and Spanish, after all we cannot blanket an entire people buy saying for example ALL WHITES ARE BAD. It could be that this too is a very syncretic manifestation. Remember the Taino and the Africans were more similar to each other than anyone of them were to the Spanish. If the Spanish did not record African graciousness it was probably because its hard to give the slaver a gift when he is wipping you into submission. It could also be very well a Taino tradition, but this one is not clear and I would rather not state matter of factly.
Please let Lynne know that we have been in touch. I cant wait to meet you in person Chip, youre the only one who sent a pic in (and that took courage)! I sent one in only cause I saw that I am just slighty uglier than you!
Superconejo:
There are ants in the DR called Bibijagua (black ant in Taino) who have a fondness for the young yuca shoots. But these ants and some other predators of the young yuca are usually dormant or rather less active during a waning moon prefering to hunt during a full moon. When the yuca shoots are still young, they have very little toxins to ward off natural enemies. Our ancestors learned to plant the yuca during a waning moon, giving the young yuca time enough to grow so that by the time the full moon cycle returned and the ants are active again, the shoots are by then bigger and already have their defense against their natural enemies.
At first glance it seems almost as though there is some kind of superstition involved in the planting cylces of the yuca. But in fact it is rather scientific.
Now! About "ei"! You have all noticed im sure that we in the campos talk like :vamo a vei, que se va asei, y que se comei. Well I find it interesting that many Taino wors end with the "i' large for example Surey, sarobey, adamanei, higuey, turey, yarei, etc. While certainly the Spanish spoken along the Southern coast is without a doubt very African in pronounciation and using the L instead of the r,this "i' larga trait is very indigenous. In " very aggressive "conversation" (lol) I suggested this to a certain individual who replied that this was a form of archaic Galician Spanish that has survived on the island. Thing is that they dont speak like this in Galicia and the only thing that has survived of Galician speech in the DR is that most Taino words that end or begin with Gua should in actuallity be pronounced "wa", like wanabana, etc. AS for the Canary islander theory, I met three of them who explained to me that Canary Island spanish is very heavily influenced by South American and Caribbean Spanish due to the fact that most Canary islanders who came as migrant workers to these areas, almost always returned to the Canary Islands, bringing with them our forms of Spanish and altering their dialect.
GOD , for a person who does not like to write I write way toooooo long eh?
Anyway to answer your question regarding the "giving aspect" of the campesino. According to the chronicalers (sp) of the time, the Taino were indeed very gracious with everything they had. I have seen this in my own family and how my mothers and aunts bend over backward to make people feel at home and always gift people who visit. Thing is that this is not (to me) a uniquely Taino thing. This is also African and Spanish, after all we cannot blanket an entire people buy saying for example ALL WHITES ARE BAD. It could be that this too is a very syncretic manifestation. Remember the Taino and the Africans were more similar to each other than anyone of them were to the Spanish. If the Spanish did not record African graciousness it was probably because its hard to give the slaver a gift when he is wipping you into submission. It could also be very well a Taino tradition, but this one is not clear and I would rather not state matter of factly.
Please let Lynne know that we have been in touch. I cant wait to meet you in person Chip, youre the only one who sent a pic in (and that took courage)! I sent one in only cause I saw that I am just slighty uglier than you!
Superconejo:
There are ants in the DR called Bibijagua (black ant in Taino) who have a fondness for the young yuca shoots. But these ants and some other predators of the young yuca are usually dormant or rather less active during a waning moon prefering to hunt during a full moon. When the yuca shoots are still young, they have very little toxins to ward off natural enemies. Our ancestors learned to plant the yuca during a waning moon, giving the young yuca time enough to grow so that by the time the full moon cycle returned and the ants are active again, the shoots are by then bigger and already have their defense against their natural enemies.
At first glance it seems almost as though there is some kind of superstition involved in the planting cylces of the yuca. But in fact it is rather scientific.
Now! About "ei"! You have all noticed im sure that we in the campos talk like :vamo a vei, que se va asei, y que se comei. Well I find it interesting that many Taino wors end with the "i' large for example Surey, sarobey, adamanei, higuey, turey, yarei, etc. While certainly the Spanish spoken along the Southern coast is without a doubt very African in pronounciation and using the L instead of the r,this "i' larga trait is very indigenous. In " very aggressive "conversation" (lol) I suggested this to a certain individual who replied that this was a form of archaic Galician Spanish that has survived on the island. Thing is that they dont speak like this in Galicia and the only thing that has survived of Galician speech in the DR is that most Taino words that end or begin with Gua should in actuallity be pronounced "wa", like wanabana, etc. AS for the Canary islander theory, I met three of them who explained to me that Canary Island spanish is very heavily influenced by South American and Caribbean Spanish due to the fact that most Canary islanders who came as migrant workers to these areas, almost always returned to the Canary Islands, bringing with them our forms of Spanish and altering their dialect.
GOD , for a person who does not like to write I write way toooooo long eh?
Interesting observation about the emphasis on the "i" in the Cibao and the same in Taino language.Baracutay said:
BTW, the south has a different dialect which uses the letter D in place of an L, however in the eastern part of the country is where the L replaces the R, although capitale?os seem to make a greater emphasis at this than people in the east for some unknown reason, well its unkown to me at least.
It also makes sense why the Cibao would develop a dialect with words ending in "i", rather than in the more African based eastern dialect. The east was heavily influenced by the presence of Cocolo workers and recently by Haitian presence. The Cibao, on the other hand, has been less influence by either Cocolos, Haitians, or the Ingleses (the blacks decendants of Afro-Americans, mostly concentrated in Puerto Plata and Saman?).
Today, of course, with the increased mobility within the Dominican population you'll find Dominicans from all over the country living in urban centers all over the nation. This, of course, is a very recent phenomenon given that the DR was an extremely land tied society with most people pretty much dying not too far away from where they were born and lived their lives.
Thus, it probably explains why the Cibae?o dialect is stronger in the countryside of the Cibao, where native Cibae?os are not outnumbered by non-Cibae?os as is sometimes the case in the biggest cities in that region.
All very interesting.
-NALs
Baracutay that is some intesting information on the ants cycle, makes sense now. I am from the Cibao myself, and alot of my family is from the countryside, they speak with the i. In some of them its not as strong as others, some seem to have more different way of pronouncing things. I love how my grandmother talks she has this Zamba speech, "Tu va recojei ei Kamumbo". That knocks down the canary islander and galician theory. I had a feeling that they were trying to knock down Taino influence by saying its archaic spanish. LOL. They did the same thing with absence of S'es in carribean spanish speaking populations, they said it wasn't kongo. You know what might be a good way to find out Baracutay, just to see what results you get. Try to find a willing person from the island of Dominica were there are still Arawaks, and see how thei'd pronounce werds in spanish. This wouldnt be a very scientific study as the circumstances of the Taino in d.r are super different from having a person try to speak spanish. Just a thought. Or you can see the speech patterns of Native venezuelans who speak spanish. I notice Andean, central american, and mexican natives (not all but atleast the ones i met) seem to speak spanish with alot of s'es, theres a big ephasis on the s. and they speak in low tone voices. I am not generizling this for WHOLE populations, atleast just the few that i've met.
I like what you've found out about canary islanders. I read in a few books that the Canary islanders who went to d.r would stay for short amounts of time, or not stay at all because they did not want to marry or be with any colored women, they tended to stay longer in venezuela, puertorico and cuba where there were larger spanish communities.
Oh yeah one more thing. What part of D.R are you from? And a thought i had was that, there should also be some Taino influence in the language of people in the south in the Bahoruco mountains, specially in the countryside, just a thought, whats your input on that?
I like what you've found out about canary islanders. I read in a few books that the Canary islanders who went to d.r would stay for short amounts of time, or not stay at all because they did not want to marry or be with any colored women, they tended to stay longer in venezuela, puertorico and cuba where there were larger spanish communities.
Oh yeah one more thing. What part of D.R are you from? And a thought i had was that, there should also be some Taino influence in the language of people in the south in the Bahoruco mountains, specially in the countryside, just a thought, whats your input on that?
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