The American dream and how it applies in the Dominican Republic

[Rick Snyder]

miguel I liked your post as it moved me and I love to hear stories of people that have done something with their lives. The AD or DD in reality should just be called the dream or desire to live a good life. For that reason I myself don't like to use the phrase the 'American dream' because desire applies in all countries. Any normal human being wants a better life for themselves and their children. It received its title because, many years ago, the USA was the only country that afforded the opportunity to the people to achieve their dream without the oppression placed on them by their native countries. At the same time the dream means different things to different people. To me it is knowing that I have the opportunity to earn and/or have earned, legally, that which is necessary to sustain my family comfortably. The sight and thought of my family living without undue hardship makes me happy even if the process might require me to have to arise early in the morning and work all day. For me it is the end result for my toiling in the "rat race" of everyday living.

Because of your post I would like to touch upon "family". In the USA a child is born and raised by his/her parents and their parents and brothers and sisters are "family". Normally, that child then leaves the house at about the age of 18 to look for their "family". Once they marry they have a "family" which is not the same as the "family" at their old homestead. Their other half then becomes their responsibility and obligation to support and help mature and survive in this world. When that person is blessed with a child then the responsibility and obligation increases and the dream sets in. In their old homestead they still have "family" but it is not the same as the "family" that lives with them. I can't explain it any better then this. It is my upbringing by my parents that has taught me that I own nothing to my parent except love and respect and this holds true for my brothers and sisters. They too have and had the opportunity at the dream and it is up to them to strive to support their "families". If they should run across hard times I will help if I can because of my love and respect for them and not because I owe them anything. I have my "family" and they are more important then my other "family" because in my act of matrimony and if my act of fornication I had committed myself to them, "my family".

 

[Rick Snyder]

Nal's now to answer your questions.

Quote by Nal's;
"Can you supply me a source that shows what percentage of votes in the United States are cast by women"?

I could research it but as I'm typically lazy and the subject doesn't interest me I'll leave it up to you to research, sorry.

Quote by Nal's;
"Also, what percentage of women are found in the American federal government? I would like to compare with Dominican sources"

I could research it but as I'm typically lazy and the subject doesn't interest me I'll leave it up to you to research, sorry. I will say that there are a LOT of women in the federal government and elsewhere within the political and private sectors in the USA.

Quote by Nal's;
"Can you supply me sources that are not based on people's opinions, but on facts that were researched by educated peoples in such fields of profession"?

This is your question concerning the "American dream".
This thread has given you a couple of facts concerning people reaching the "American dream, what more do you want? It is obtainable but it isn't easy. It doesn't just pop out at you it requires you to put forth some effort. If you take advantage of the free education system, in what ever country that has it, then you are on the way to improving your lot in life as a first step. Everything that you do or don't do after that will have an impact on the outcome of that life that you have chosen. If you should decide to sell drugs you might reach the dream but then again the odds are against you so I would never suggest that a person do anything illegal to fulfill their dream.

Quote by Nal's;
The phrase Dominican dream has never come to being because Dominicans today live with the same antagonism of times past. Historically, Dominicans have been subjected to invasions, destructions, revolutions, etc. Everytime calmness came, Dominicans started to work towards economic achievement above mediocrity, only to be wiped away in the next revolution or invasion, etc. For those reasons Dominicans developed the heavily ingrained pessimism towards the country as a whole, evident in almost everything.

This "pessimism" as you call it and "fatalism" as I like to call it is in fact a reality.But regardless of which word you use the idea that it still exists is so difficult for me to understand in a democracy where change can come about if the people will only take an active part in their society. This is where education comes to play and people such as yourself. If the public school system will not teach what a democracy is then it is up to you, the people that have some wisdom, to teach others. That is, if you really have a true heart for the betterment of your country FOR ALL THE PEOPLE and the DESIRE to see it come to past. If you don't have the desire to take an active part or teach the people then you deserve the government that you get. I will say it one more time "A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role". It can't get any simpler then that and that is the truth.

Rick

 

[NALs]

In the 1920s Trujillo owned almost all and confiscated. The government has always beem a major land owner in DR. Some of the "influential" families were able to get some of their property back, if they were the right color. (e.g. PRSC members).

Lack of documentation, and as you say "savvy," in a property transaction is just simple corruption and abusive behavior. Essentially, taking advantage of the poor and their ignorance. And let's remember that this is just what was leftover after Trujillo's rampant confiscation.

I just remembered the book I refered to initially. The system for the Dominican Republic and other developing countries in Latin America is discussed in Hernando De Soto's, The Mystery of Capital.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465016154/103-5434686-8510222?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

D

What you said is pretty much what I said, which is odd since we don't "click" very often.

However, I have to say that there are some minor incorrect information:

In the 1920s, Trujillo was still being trained by the American forces in the earlier part of the decade, and headed the American created National Police in the later part of that decade. He did not came to power until 1930 and did not began to amass his incredible fortune until about after the great depression hit and the world war caused the price of sugar to skyrocket, mostly due to the destruction of sugar beats in Europe, primarily in France.

However, by the time of his death, Trujillo owned around three quarters of all the good arable land in the country. He also allowed American and Cuban capitalists to appropriate and maintain large sugar estates in the east and some other estates (such as the Banana plantation owned by an American company in what today is Sosua). Of course, the US of A began to become weary of Trujillo the moment he began to show interest in appropriating the American owned land.

Many of the prominent families that reaquired their large estates, did so because of the great depression that crippled the world and the bankruptcy of many of the sugar estates. In fact, families like the Vicini's amassed their fortunes by buying the bankrupt sugar estates at the deflated value during the depression and after the depression and during the world war amassing their fortunes due to the rapid increase in sugar prices, that era was known as the Dance of Millions. This "dance of millions" was primarily in Cuba and Dominican Republic, particularly the east where small fishing villages like San Pedro de Macoris and La Romana virtually overnight became cosmopolitan centers with and concentrations of excessive wealth with San Pedro de Macoris becoming the wealthiest city in the entire Caribbean for quite a time, known as the Sultan of the East. To look at that city today, you would never even know of its glorious past, with glimpses evidenced along the river area.

It's important to note that during that time, white immigrants came in search of wealth where as black immigrants were brought as low wage earners, particularly English speakers from Tortola, Saint Lucia, Barbados, etc and later, French Creole speakers from Haiti primarily. Once the bust came, most of the whites left, leaving behind what today are known as cocolos.

I have documents on PDF files about this, if you are interested, send me a PM with an email address (create a Yahoo.com email account if you want) and I'll be more than willing to send them as attachments. I also have additional historic documents written by foreigners who studied the country from 1890s to 1930s, if you are interested.

-NAL

 

[NALs]

You're being sarcastic, I hope?

The Magna Carta actually says just the opposite:

Keith, I have a couple of words...

Monroe Doctrine and Good Neighbor Policy.

-NAL

 

[Keith R]

Keith, I have a couple of words...

Monroe Doctrine and Good Neighbor Policy.

-NAL

Neither of which, Nals, contrary to your prior claim (see below), is actually in the Magna Carta.

The Americans even included their right to intervene in Dominican political affairs, interestingly I don't see any such right in the American constitution regarding other countries right to intervene in their own affairs.

 

[NALs]

Neither of which, Nals, contrary to your prior claim (see below), is actually in the Magna Carta.

Yes, that is true.

However, it does not changes the fact that both, the Monroe Doctrine and the "Good Neighbor Policy" supercedes anything any Latin American constitution claims as to its sovereignity and the prohibition of foreign powers from interfering in internal affairs, at least as far as the US is concerned and it's ingrained belief that it has a moral duty to rule over Latin American nations.

That is why we had the invasion in 1910s and 1960s, that is why the US got involved with the civil wars in Nicaragua and Panama in the in the 1980s, etc.

The list goes on and on.

-NAL

I quote the following from the sources at the bottom of this post:

"In 1904, Teddy Roosevelt began to flex the United States' newfound muscle. He "asserted that the [Monroe] doctrine carried 'the exercise of an international police power' in the Western Hemisphere." This assertion was quickly recognized as the Roosevelt Corollary and was often cited to exonerate intervention throughout the Caribbean. The Caribbean Basin would become known as "an American lake." If the Caribbean was an American lake, the Dominican Republic was beachfront property.

President Wilson strongly advocated the notion of a nation's right to self-determination. However, he also believed that although "all people might want freedom…whether they could gain and preserve it depended on race." This racist view undoubtedly extended to Latin America resulting in Wilson's "moralistic concern for teaching Latin Americans how to govern themselves."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt embraced a new approach toward U.S. - Latin American relations by implementing the notion of the Good Neighbor Policy. Through this policy, "American statesmen formally renounced the 'right' to intervene militarily in the affairs of Latin American countries." This policy did not imply the absence of a U.S. role in the future of Latin America; simply that other means of influence would be exploited. "The Good Neighbor Policy meant new tactics, not new goals."

The United States explored and executed various means to sustain its control over the Caribbean while maintaining this non-military interventionist philosophy. The list of tools available to the U.S. ranged from export quotas and economic dependency to supporting caudillos and dictators."

http://fuentes.csh.udg.mx/CUCSH/Sincronia/dominican.html

http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

 

[Keith R]

Doesn't change the fact that it's not in the Dominican Constitution.

Rick can speak for himself, but I don't think the thread was intended to be a discussion of the Monroe Doctrine, or the Good Neighbor Policy, of the history of US interventions (real or imagined) in Latin America.

Finding it hard to stay on-topic?

 

[Rick Snyder]

Nals as you are on a roll I've got some sources for you that you requested of me. I only did a little research but I hope it will help you. Remember I said I as lazy. Yo soy un bago.

Article on the 19th amendment to the US constitution; http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/20/womens.suffrage/
Gender makeup of US Congress http://www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/demographics.tt?catid=gend
Very good link for you and can get it in Spanish http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/indicator/indic_165_1_1.html
Women in government from around the world http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/governors2000.htm
Interesting article on an illegals trying to obtain the American dream http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=8148101&content_dir=ua_congressorg
Here is a good article about the AD; http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/American_Dream.htm

Gee how can we as the Dominican government set or computer system up so it's transparent and easy to contact us and also lets the people know what's going on in their country and how it operates?

GO HERE AND GET AN EXAMPLE STUPID!!! The word 'stupid' refers to the Dominican government and not this boards members.

US House of Representatives at ; http://www.house.gov/

OR HOW ABOUT THIS!!
http://clerk.house.gov/legisAct/legisFAQ.html

Education is such a great thing. Don't you just love it?


Rick

 

[NALs]

Doesn't change the fact that it's not in the Dominican Constitution.

Rick can speak for himself, but I don't think the thread was intended to be a discussion of the Monroe Doctrine, or the Good Neighbor Policy, of the history of US interventions (real or imagined) in Latin America.

Finding it hard to stay on-topic?

It does not changes the fact that its not in the constitution, albeit it was in previous versions.

Additionally, it does not changes the fact that the Dominican or any Latin American constitution means nothing when the Americans feel the need of flexing their muscles.

This thread is about democracy, the American dream and its application to the DR.

If anything, what I have presented is nothing more than contradictory anti-democratic actions the US has done towards Latin America, and then we got Americans expecting for us to become fully "democratic" over night.

This is despite the fact that there is no universal acceptance of one single democratic system.

There is a reason why Nico Lora wrote the "La Invasion de 16" perico ripiao song.

"En el año 16,
llegan los americanos
pisoteando con sus botas
el suelo dominicano.

Henriquez y Carvajal,
defendiendo la bandera,
dijo: No pueden mandar
los yanquis en nuestra tierra.

El americano
siempre se entromete,
los haremos ir
dandoles machete.

En tierra de Duarte,
dijo Carvajal,
los americanos
no pueden mandar.

Al Americano
que tenga presente
que el dominicano
es hombre valiente.

Los haremos ir
con fuerza y valor
al americano
por abusador."

The only problem with that song is that it was nothing more than wishful thinking in so many ways.

-NAL

 

[NALs]

Nals as you are on a roll I've got some sources for you that you requested of me. I only did a little research but I hope it will help you. Remember I said I as lazy. Yo soy un bago.

Article on the 19th amendment to the US constitution; http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/20/womens.suffrage/
Gender makeup of US Congress http://www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/demographics.tt?catid=gend
Very good link for you and can get it in Spanish http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/indicator/indic_165_1_1.html
Women in government from around the world http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/governors2000.htm
Interesting article on an illegals trying to obtain the American dream http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=8148101&content_dir=ua_congressorg
Here is a good article about the AD; http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/American_Dream.htm

Gee how can we as the Dominican government set or computer system up so it's transparent and easy to contact us and also lets the people know what's going on in their country and how it operates?

GO HERE AND GET AN EXAMPLE STUPID!!! The word 'stupid' refers to the Dominican government and not this boards members.

US House of Representatives at ; http://www.house.gov/

OR HOW ABOUT THIS!!
http://clerk.house.gov/legisAct/legisFAQ.html

Education is such a great thing. Don't you just love it?


Rick

Thank you Rick, this is exactly what I was searching for.

-NAL

 

[Chris]

GO HERE AND GET AN EXAMPLE STUPID!!! The word 'stupid' refers to the Dominican government and not this boards member
....
Education is such a great thing. Don't you just love it?
Rick

OK Rick, I agree, education is a great thing. Let me leave you with this piece of education. Calling others stupid while applying your own frame of reference to a situation, frequently highlights something that YOU have not learnt, or do not understand. Here in the DR, it is considered *not polite*, or *not a good thing* to call others stupid.

Uhm, I think I've picked up the Dominican Way regarding the word 'stupid'. I cannot use it any more... and it is a good thing too!

 

[Ricardo900]

It's important to note that during that time, white immigrants came in search of wealth where as black immigrants were brought as low wage earners, particularly English speakers from Tortola, Saint Lucia, Barbados, etc and later, French Creole speakers from Haiti primarily. Once the bust came, most of the whites left, leaving behind what today are known as cocolos. NAL

Nals, do you know anything about immigration of "east indians" a/k/a "Coolies"? East Indians were imported into Guyana as indentured laborers to replace Africans on the plantations after slavery around 1837.

Did any East-Indians make it to DR??

 

[deelt]

Folks
For those bent on "discussing" with Keith R. I think this is area of expertise so I would urge people to proceed with caution.

Knock 'em dead, Keith!
Deelt

 

[Rick Snyder]

Chris I'm sorry if you were thinking that I was referring to you and that is why I put "The word 'stupid' refers to the Dominican government and not this boards member" right after making that statement. Now if you are suggesting that the Dominican government is not stupid then I would have to argue with you or maybe agree with you depending on how you look at it. It is a fact that democracy is new for this country, it is a fact that the Dominicans don't know how to use this system to better their position in life, it is a fact that the Dominicans could change there government into a true democracy rather then a democracy in name only, it is a fact that almost all of the web sites for the Dominican government are poorly set up for the accessing of pertinent information, contact and transparency. Now,,,,,,,, if there is a hidden agenda for not teaching the people about a democracy, not allowing the people to gain useful information about there dealings, contacting and failing to be transparent then yes they are SMART. If there is not a hidden agenda then they are STUPID. IF you want a democracy to operate correctly then you as a government must be transparent and you as a government must teach your citizens how the system works. Especially a system that is new to you and the citizens. IF their new system is alien to them then a smart government/person would seek out help as to how best to implement that which he cares to undertake. Without doing that would be STUPID. Gee.... is there anybody close by that has experience with a democracy, computers, wind energy or something else I want that I could ask help from and or guidance?

Rick

 

[Chris]

Chris I'm sorry if you were thinking that I was referring to you and that is why I put "The word 'stupid' refers to the Dominican government and not this boards member" right after making that statement.Rick

Rick, I read and comprehend very well. As you do not seem to, let me phrase it clearly once again...

The current DR government may be many things, but stupid they are not. I take exception to your statement that the DR government is stupid as well as your pathetic bleating to prove this, in relation to a country where very few correlations between the two can be drawn. Apples and apples Rick! I suggest strongly that you do some comparative research in different areas of the world to find a more applicable frame of reference to prove or disprove your hypothesis. And no, I did not think you were referring to me.

In normal English, go get a broader education and try to pick up some wisdom while you're about it.

 

[NALs]

Nals, do you know anything about immigration of "east indians" a/k/a "Coolies"? East Indians were imported into Guyana as indentured laborers to replace Africans on the plantations after slavery around 1837.

Did any East-Indians make it to DR??

I don't ever recall reading about east-indians being imported into DR.

However, a small tiny number might have settled somewhere. It appears that people from all over the Caribbean have at least one person in this country, but if that turns out to be true, it is a tiny, unimportant number. Unimportant in the sense of affecting the Dominican population in anyway.

-NAL

 

[Exxtol]

Yes, that is true.

However, it does not changes the fact that both, the Monroe Doctrine and the "Good Neighbor Policy" supercedes anything any Latin American constitution claims as to its sovereignity and the prohibition of foreign powers from interfering in internal affairs, at least as far as the US is concerned and it's ingrained belief that it has a moral duty to rule over Latin American nations.

That is why we had the invasion in 1910s and 1960s, that is why the US got involved with the civil wars in Nicaragua and Panama in the in the 1980s, etc.

The list goes on and on.

-NAL

I quote the following from the sources at the bottom of this post:

"In 1904, Teddy Roosevelt began to flex the United States' newfound muscle. He "asserted that the [Monroe] doctrine carried 'the exercise of an international police power' in the Western Hemisphere." This assertion was quickly recognized as the Roosevelt Corollary and was often cited to exonerate intervention throughout the Caribbean. The Caribbean Basin would become known as "an American lake." If the Caribbean was an American lake, the Dominican Republic was beachfront property.

President Wilson strongly advocated the notion of a nation's right to self-determination. However, he also believed that although "all people might want freedom

 

[Exxtol]

Yes, that is true.

However, it does not changes the fact that both, the Monroe Doctrine and the "Good Neighbor Policy" supercedes anything any Latin American constitution claims as to its sovereignity and the prohibition of foreign powers from interfering in internal affairs, at least as far as the US is concerned and it's ingrained belief that it has a moral duty to rule over Latin American nations.

That is why we had the invasion in 1910s and 1960s, that is why the US got involved with the civil wars in Nicaragua and Panama in the in the 1980s, etc.

The list goes on and on.

-NAL

I quote the following from the sources at the bottom of this post:

"In 1904, Teddy Roosevelt began to flex the United States' newfound muscle. He "asserted that the [Monroe] doctrine carried 'the exercise of an international police power' in the Western Hemisphere." This assertion was quickly recognized as the Roosevelt Corollary and was often cited to exonerate intervention throughout the Caribbean. The Caribbean Basin would become known as "an American lake." If the Caribbean was an American lake, the Dominican Republic was beachfront property.

President Wilson strongly advocated the notion of a nation's right to self-determination. However, he also believed that although "all people might want freedom?whether they could gain and preserve it depended on race." This racist view undoubtedly extended to Latin America resulting in Wilson's "moralistic concern for teaching Latin Americans how to govern themselves."

President Franklin D. Roosevelt embraced a new approach toward U.S. - Latin American relations by implementing the notion of the Good Neighbor Policy. Through this policy, "American statesmen formally renounced the 'right' to intervene militarily in the affairs of Latin American countries." This policy did not imply the absence of a U.S. role in the future of Latin America; simply that other means of influence would be exploited. "The Good Neighbor Policy meant new tactics, not new goals."

The United States explored and executed various means to sustain its control over the Caribbean while maintaining this non-military interventionist philosophy. The list of tools available to the U.S. ranged from export quotas and economic dependency to supporting caudillos and dictators."

http://fuentes.csh.udg.mx/CUCSH/Sincronia/dominican.html

http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

Nals,

I don't agree with you very often, but I definitely have to agree with you on this one--not necessarily your examples, but the idea that we (Americans), although we hate to admit it, have and still do "intervene" certain countries when we deem it "necessary".

 

[Rick Snyder]

As I don't want to get into a %issing contest with anyone I'll just keep my mouth shut. I've supplied a few sites for those of you that like to surf the net.
An interesting story about democracy here; http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/govt2000.htm
German government in French, English or German; http://www.bundesregierung.de/en/Th...stitutional-ba-,10208/Structure-and-tasks.htm
A little contact with Spain here; http://www.mir.es/sites/mir/pciudad/dparticipacion/derechos.html or here http://www.mir.es/sites/mir/trafico/tramconductores/
How about Canada; http://servicecanada.gc.ca/en/home.html
A little of Mexico; http://www.sedeco.df.gob.mx/transparencia/index.html
Ahhhh Costa Rica; http://www.costaricaweb.com/general/index.htm
Brazil here; https://www.planalto.gov.br/
A very, very good article on e-gov here; http://www.centerdigitalgov.com/international/story.php?docid=79906
Venezuela; http://www.gobiernoenlinea.gob.ve/directorioestado/index.html

So many have gotten it right!!!!!

Rick