The End Of Poverty Is Never Coming!

[Tordok]

Tordok,

I commend your commentary as one which obviously is well thought out and presented. I really do not take exception to any of the posts you have made.

What I am objecting to are those commentaries which throw blame about in an indiscriminate manner with no reference to solutions or probabilities of solutions. These people tend to focus on the 'rich-poor' scenarios and blame the rich for the shortcomings of the poor on a personal basis as if there were a world-wide conspiracy.
I have no problem in rendering aid at the time it is needed, but I do object strongly to the continuance of that aid when evidence discloses a dependence being created and/or sought. I guess I haven't articulated that sufficiently.
Much better minds than mine have struggled with the ogre of poverty for centuries and we still haven't a workable solution. I'm not sure we ever will have, although I do hold out hope for one. Being poor is not an easy life anywhere.

Texas Bill

TB,
Thanks for the reply. Your last post is much clearer to me now, and in fact I do agree with everything you say in the latter. I apparently tried too hard to post using natural science language. It ended up being seen as political science language. Obsfuscation happens often in these forums and I am not exempt of contributing to that.

Hey, its great that we have a diversity of opinions. We all have a lot to learn from others and enjoy the amiable disputes when they occur.

salud!
- Tordok

 

[Texas Bill]

Tordok---

Diversity of opinions and the uninhibited exploration of problems facing the human animal are the root of all knowledge.

While I, at times, fiercely object to some commentaries on this and other boards, I have really learned a great deal.

In many of the "debates" I have entered I have ended up in 'knock-downs and drag-outs' and due to becoming emotionally involved. I can only hang my head in embarassment over those occasions.

Posts, such as you have made and continue to make, can only add to the success of this Forum. They are clear and concise statements rendered with a great deal of forethought and depth. I only wish that we could all express ourselves in such an articulate manner. Thank you.

The world-wide problem of poverty facing us has no immediate solution(s) although I would wish a different conclusion.

I really can't think of anything additional to add.

Texas Bill

 

[NALs]

You state that the Saudis bring in people to fill jobs their own people consider beneath themselves to perform and totally turn a blind eye to that same demonstration of reluctance with regard to the Haitian population occupying that same position in the DR.

The DR imports Haitians because their labor is cheaper than Dominican labor. Many Dominicans (I would think) would cut sugar cane if it paid them well, but they don't because: A) Sugar cutting doesnt pay well and B) Haitian acceptance of the meager pay helps exacerbate such meager pay in that industry.

In the contrary, Saudi Arabian "low jobs" actually pay them quite well with the foreigners being imported being housed in nice compound apartments. Any Saudi could live off the wages being paid for a low job, but they don't do it because they consider it to be "offensive". That notion comes from the fact that many Saudis live very comfortable.

Higher living standards bring a sense of pride to people and that pride usually makes them decide hardship over taking an available job position, especially if the job position has a negative connotation. In the other hand, if the job pays meager wages, then that is the basis for most people to ignore such jobs, in order to pull the wages up. But, when foreigners who work for less come in, the wages don't go up, but either stabalize at the meager levels or might even fall.

You advocate bringing in foreign elements to do that same work and leave out the vast uneducated element of the DR that wouldn't be able to fulfill those industrial jobs being offered in your 'Free Zone" described above. In addition, you advocate severe punishment for those that don't comply (am I reading you wrong?).

Those financial jobs that I am proposing is nothing more than making the outsourcing wave that is happening in the US a bit more closer to home. Instead of moving a companies operation to India (which also has poweroutages, intermitten water service, and an infrastructure that makes the DR look like El Dorado), they would move it to the DR which is only 3 hours away from the US, that being the number one advantage. In addition to that, the lower pay that they would pay to the Indians anyways, they will be able to do here in the DR to the exact same Indians because they will import the Indians to the DR.

Many of those jobs, while they pay less than in the US, they still pay a bit more than most jobs currently do in the DR. That creates aggregate demand in most other indirectly affected industries. Which one you ask? Well, lets see. They need restaurants to eat, clothing stores, cable TV, transportation. They need communication services to keep in touch with their family in India, Airline services for their occasional trip home, they need Language schools to learn Spanish or any other language, etc. All of that turns out into more economic incentives for economic growth here in the DR. The more job growth, the lower the unemployment rate and a slight increase in consumption would be witnessed.

While that is underway, the government could spend some extra cash (which will collect through the extra revenue from the sales taxes, etc) into the education system so that the next generation of Dominicans would be much more qualified for better paying jobs.

I don't suggest severe punishment for those who don't comply. Their punishment will be self inflicted in their loss not taking part in the new economic activity.

I'm not trying to belittle you when I say that your plan is one that needs A LOT OF WORK in order to make it acceptable to ANY potential foreign companies OR immigrants.

If I did not wanted people to make comments on my plan or if I thought that my plan was perfect, I would have never post it here. Everything I post on DR1, for the most part is meant for me to fine tune it. I'll support what I say for a while, but if I see that my support is not going through, I modify my ideas. After all, I post to better my ideas and perception of things, not to make the rest of the world agree with me. However, if most people agree with me in certain issues, then I know that I am in the right state of mind when it comes to that particular issues, otherwise I modify my thinking.

Where will you house them? Or, would you require the companies to provide that housing?

There are many homes (new and old) that are not occupied in certain areas of the DR (in the Capital, around Puerto Plata, Santiago, etc). Many of these folks coming in from abroad could combine their resources among small groups of themselves to rent out a place. As they prosper or as the market conform it self to serve them, they will be able to get their own place or build their dream home, or whatever. It all takes time for this to happen. If companies want to house them (like some resorts in Punta Cana are doing) then fine, but most likely these immigrants will have to do the samething they do in the US. Get a group of them together and they will share their resources in paying for certain things like housing, services, etc.

What about the endemic problems of the almost nonexistant infrastructure? Or would you have those not accustomed to the amenities of a modern civilized nation?

These immigrants are mostly coming from third world countries that are far more behind than the DR. India ($400 per capita GDP), Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, etc. Countries that have a large pool of skilled workers but live in dismal conditions. Their move to the DR would appear for them to be a move upward in their economic appearance. If you have been to Mumbay, Kolkota, or Delhi you know that those places are so poor that nowhere in the DR looks like that!

Also, how did you go accustomed to the DR way of life? After all, you came from the first world! If you were able to get adjusted then that means that there are many others who are capable of doing just that.

From what countries would you suggest these recruits for your "El Dorado" be drawn? Africa, the Mid-East, the Phillipines, China, Siberia?
Surely not from Europe, the US or India. They'd laugh in your face outright for your audacity.

I already mentioned the possible countries in the previous paragraphs. Why would Europe and US laugh, the DR will offer them another cheap place for their multinational companies to lower their costs! And India doesn't care. After all, why would India allow millions of its brightest people to leave the country while keep all of the people that are poor and non mobile economically?

May I just got lost in your commentary, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Care to go into a little more detail??

It takes time to get people align into any type of vision. It takes time. Sooner or later it will cling to you what I am saying, just give it some time.

 

[Pomli]

You really think that a child with parents with NO education will be able to relay the same quality education as a child living with parents who both possess grad school degrees?

Hi
Just to say something,
a child with parents with NO education can have a good quality of education if the parents insist and regularly tell the child that education is very important and to underline the facts that without it, you will end up as a *loser*. I am an example. My parents are from China and immigrated in Canada. They were not educated because education at their time was not useful, and as poverty in their family and revolutions did not help. They did not even speak any words of English, French, or anything else except Chinese. As language and education were a barrier to them, they end up doing jobs at the minimal salary hour, but work hard, till holding 3 jobs and about 70 hours of work per week, just to raise us and just to send us to school. I haven't seen my parents quite often during my youth due to that but all the effort, and energy put just for us, their 4 children, just underline how hard they want us to success in life, have an university diploma and get a better job than them. They could have stopped giving money to us, stopping us to get education and just enjoying their life, which they have never done since 21 years.

If the parents don't think that education is important, then their children will be like them later on. However, if the parents just continually put emphasis on this daily in the life of their children, and even work harder to put them in school, children will be in some way more willing to learn and to get a diploma , even if initially, the parents did not have education initially.

And that is true, because I know some Canadians here, to whom education is not important, become parents of children that lack interest in school.

I know that situation may be different in DR, but some aspects in what I just wrote could be applied and then make education a major priority in DR.
-Anna

 

[deelt]

Hi Pomli

There are two points that I think you are missing in what I was trying to say.

First:
I think there is a cultural difference that you are ignoring. Not all Dominicans have the same level of discipline as Asians. I have studied with many Asians and the value placed on discipline, repetition, and on education is extremely high. Asian (in particular, Chinese, Korean and Japanese) kids tend to endure high social/family pressure to do extremely well in school. It is an issue of bringing shame or honor on the family name. While Dominicans can say they value education they do not, on average, exhibit through action or demand the same level of commitment and the social repercussions are not as severe. Some parents are even a detriment in that they subconsciously do not even provide a condusive studying environment. This can be as simple as turning off the TV (novelas) and/or the radio. This particular portion is also substantiated by reseach. This is why I feel we need to educate these parents on how they can be better parents to their children.

Second:
Also, while you can have a smart child regardless of ethnicity, what I am talking about is that everyday-know-how that you grow up with when you are in an educated household. I am not talking book smarts. What I am talking about is learning the big SAT/GRE words when you are 4,5...10 years old and thus learning to SOUND and ARTICULATE in a different way. There is a capital value to having parents that surround their child with people who talk about statistical analysis, mergers, corporate buy outs, or effectively handling office politics/media/politicians, etc. No matter how smart we are there is a lag experienced, since we were children of parents of little to no education who do not experience this.

If you are to measure human capital in strides then I give you props for your accomplishments, but when others judge superficially on polish it can be a hard call if you are still trying to save to get your first suit.

Hi
Just to say something,
a child with parents with NO education can have a good quality of education if the parents insist and regularly tell the child that education is very important and to underline the facts that without it, you will end up as a *loser*. I am an example. My parents are from China and immigrated in Canada. They were not educated because education at their time was not useful, and as poverty in their family and revolutions did not help. They did not even speak any words of English, French, or anything else except Chinese. As language and education were a barrier to them, they end up doing jobs at the minimal salary hour, but work hard, till holding 3 jobs and about 70 hours of work per week, just to raise us and just to send us to school. I haven't seen my parents quite often during my youth due to that but all the effort, and energy put just for us, their 4 children, just underline how hard they want us to success in life, have an university diploma and get a better job than them. They could have stopped giving money to us, stopping us to get education and just enjoying their life, which they have never done since 21 years.

If the parents don't think that education is important, then their children will be like them later on. However, if the parents just continually put emphasis on this daily in the life of their children, and even work harder to put them in school, children will be in some way more willing to learn and to get a diploma , even if initially, the parents did not have education initially.

And that is true, because I know some Canadians here, to whom education is not important, become parents of children that lack interest in school.

I know that situation may be different in DR, but some aspects in what I just wrote could be applied and then make education a major priority in DR.
-Anna

 

[Texas Bill]

deelt---

You have hit the nail on the head very squarely!
The houshold environment in which a child is raised has a very heavy impact on their outlook toward acquiring an education.
In addition, the incentives given to all children by their peers and teachers has the same impact on them.
I would say that it is a combination of these two, three factors which will have a determining factor on how far that student will pursue an education.

Texas Bill

 

[Pomli]

Hi Pomli

There are two points that I think you are missing in what I was trying to say.

First:
I think there is a cultural difference that you are ignoring. Not all Dominicans have the same level of discipline as Asians. I have studied with many Asians and the value placed on discipline, repetition, and on education is extremely high. Asian (in particular, Chinese, Korean and Japanese) kids tend to endure high social/family pressure to do extremely well in school. It is an issue of bringing shame or honor on the family name. While Dominicans can say they value education they do not, on average, exhibit through action or demand the same level of commitment and the social repercussions are not as severe. Some parents are even a detriment in that they subconsciously do not even provide a condusive studying environment. This can be as simple as turning off the TV (novelas) and/or the radio. This particular portion is also substantiated by reseach. This is why I feel we need to educate these parents on how they can be better parents to their children.

Second:
Also, while you can have a smart child regardless of ethnicity, what I am talking about is that everyday-know-how that you grow up with when you are in an educated household. I am not talking book smarts. What I am talking about is learning the big SAT/GRE words when you are 4,5...10 years old and thus learning to SOUND and ARTICULATE in a different way. There is a capital value to having parents that surround their child with people who talk about statistical analysis, mergers, corporate buy outs, or effectively handling office politics/media/politicians, etc. No matter how smart we are there is a lag experienced, since we were children of parents of little to no education who do not experience this.

If you are to measure human capital in strides then I give you props for your accomplishments, but when others judge superficially on polish it can be a hard call if you are still trying to save to get your first suit.

I know that there are lots differences between the two cultures but I was just focusing only on one sentence that you wrote...

It's true that I haven't really experienced what is figuring in your second point (in fact, it's hard to approach lots of subjects when one's mother tongue lack so much of vocabulary..), and I'm sure that's the same for most people in the similar cases. But this experience can be acquire outside, depending the level on interest of the person or the child. But the interest has to be given initially to her or him to trigger this, either from people with who they live, or from any means of communications.. It's hard to hear that some parents just give a good educational environment. It's so bad that they turn the tv off when come's the novelas or other things. I think that if we want that they change their behavior, they need to see a motivation to strive for. They need to see an good end product. Do Dominican people have a general same goal in their life? I'm sure money is one of them (unfortunately..) but are there others? Working around those goals may be a tool to make them change behavior..

I think that to make a major impact on the country on how education is important, is to work on it. Talking is good because new ideas can be developed, but one have to make sure that those ideas will make their way to reality. This has to come from people of Dominican Republic. If we, people outside of the country, decide to go to DR and change everything at the level of education so it looks like the system in wealthy country, will Dominican people accept that? Evidently no, it's like an total imposing from *foreigners*. In DR there are couple of people that I was surprised that they were knowledgeable about the world outside of the countries (how governement work, social benefits systems, environment and more), informations that they learned only through internet even if they have never been outside of the countries. Those people and others have realized that learning is in fact important, and those are maybe the ones that could do something to the present situation and to change it.

I really wish that situation could change for the best. I am worried that for the future generations to come in DR. I read that birth rate is really high is high in the country but if a high percentage of children ends up with little education, I cannot imagine how would be the face of the country over the next years. I can offer support, and help, but the big chunk has to come from the Dominican people. I really wish that those kids, teenagers or young adults as me that I have seen while staying in the country recently could have a better understanding of life, that could do something else more interesting than working for their entire life for the resorts or sitting on their motorcycle all day on streets doing nothing.

I might be wrong on couple of things as I don't know much of the country itself. If it happens, just correct me, and I will know that for next time!!
I know that some stuff I said will be difficult to apply due to the social, economical context. But haven't one said that if one really WANT it, one can DO it ?! There are obstacles in every situations, and those obstacles, even the hardest one, could be handled.

-Anna

 

[deelt]

Pomli, I think we agree more than we disagree. I think much of the problems in DR lie with people using politics to acquire power and rather than place value on actually improving the quality of life in DR. If people were less corrupt and took the time to realize that improving the country's institutions and investing in its people would improve EVERYONE'S bottomline then we would finally see change. But that just sounds too much like right.

Now stop procrastinating and get back to your school work! :glasses:
Just Kidding! Thanks for caring enough to post.

It's true that I haven't really experienced what is figuring in your second point (in fact, it's hard to approach lots of subjects when one's mother tongue lack so much of vocabulary..), and I'm sure that's the same for most people in the similar cases. But this experience can be acquire outside, depending the level on interest of the person or the child. But the interest has to be given initially to her or him to trigger this, either from people with who they live, or from any means of communications.. It's hard to hear that some parents just give a good educational environment. It's so bad that they turn the tv off when come's the novelas or other things. I think that if we want that they change their behavior, they need to see a motivation to strive for. They need to see an good end product. Do Dominican people have a general same goal in their life? I'm sure money is one of them (unfortunately..) but are there others? Working around those goals may be a tool to make them change behavior..

I think that to make a major impact on the country on how education is important, is to work on it. Talking is good because new ideas can be developed, but one have to make sure that those ideas will make their way to reality. This has to come from people of Dominican Republic. If we, people outside of the country, decide to go to DR and change everything at the level of education so it looks like the system in wealthy country, will Dominican people accept that? Evidently no, it's like an total imposing from *foreigners*. In DR there are couple of people that I was surprised that they were knowledgeable about the world outside of the countries (how governement work, social benefits systems, environment and more), informations that they learned only through internet even if they have never been outside of the countries. Those people and others have realized that learning is in fact important, and those are maybe the ones that could do something to the present situation and to change it.

I really wish that situation could change for the best. I am worried that for the future generations to come in DR. I read that birth rate is really high is high in the country but if a high percentage of children ends up with little education, I cannot imagine how would be the face of the country over the next years. I can offer support, and help, but the big chunk has to come from the Dominican people. I really wish that those kids, teenagers or young adults as me that I have seen while staying in the country recently could have a better understanding of life, that could do something else more interesting than working for their entire life for the resorts or sitting on their motorcycle all day on streets doing nothing.

I might be wrong on couple of things as I don't know much of the country itself. If it happens, just correct me, and I will know that for next time!!
I know that some stuff I said will be difficult to apply due to the social, economical context. But haven't one said that if one really WANT it, one can DO it ?! There are obstacles in every situations, and those obstacles, even the hardest one, could be handled.

-Anna

 

[Pomli]

Pomli, I think we agree more than we disagree. I think much of the problems in DR lie with people using politics to acquire power and rather than place value on actually improving the quality of life in DR. If people were less corrupt and took the time to realize that improving the country's institutions and investing in its people would improve EVERYONE'S bottomline then we would finally see change. But that just sounds too much like right.

Now stop procrastinating and get back to your school work! :glasses:
Just Kidding! Thanks for caring enough to post.

Yep, if simply people can realize that they could do better than now..
I feel like something important has to happen, something that will touch negatively the majority of the population, so they can wake up and improve their situation. If not, it should come from the people itself, from the most educated to teach to others that education is an important asset to acquire in life! Or another possibility, go in politics and run for being the prime minister (president or I don't know how you call call him) and get surrounded by people motivated to change the country that corrupting it

Anyways, you're right, I need to go back to my books!! Examenes por las cinco proximas semanas . I am just in a period in which I needed to practice how expressing myself over some subjects; it's kind of rare I'm doing that!

-Anna