The Structure Of A Barrio

[laurapasinifan]

Matilda...see how wide the thread is now...that happened because you have both those pictures on the same line in your post...thus it made the screen very wide to view now.

So...I see you did good to resize them....but next time put each picture on its own line in the post....OK?

it will make viewing much better for everyone......I leanred the hard way as well early on

take care

bob

 

[vince1956]

Gunmen kidnap 10 children in Haiti

Yes she should have a better home. She should have adequate food and health care and clothing. Oh the stint of corruption that steals much needed monies. But I will bet she is happy in spite of it.

I can't know better than the experts now can I. They will tell you that if you spread the modern world structure as fast as possible, you make a better world. She will have more stuff and she will be happier. Believe me, it is all about money. Making the rich richer. Sell your soul for a peso.

I believe that if you bring change to fast, such people will lose what is more important to them...even if they don't know what it is. She probably walks out that old rickety shack and is surrounded by friends and family that care about her. Can you say the same thing when you walk outside your dwelling? What is more important, that or having an A/C?

The business people will take a solare of land and say let us build a 5 story apartment building. Let's stack them high and they can all look out on the back of the building next door. Shhhh...we make more profit per square meter. And the building is built in such a way that they make more money and the people have to live somewhere and they will buy or rent these dwellings and the world turns.

But it is inevitable. I know this also. I know you can't stop 'PROGRESS'. Such magical terms they use to sway us. To keep us believing. Sell the land, sell the minerals, sell the crops.

Related: Haiti has a big problem right now with the kidnapping of children. Can you imagine losing your child to kidnappers. They have killed several of the children. Kidnappings by gangs is a growing problem around the world. Want my take on it? Ok, I will give it to you anyway. Two elements here...Gangs and Kidnappings. This is all a result of the balance of wealth tipping to far in one direction. When this happens, extreme activities emerge. The proliferation of organized gangs occurs as people on one end of the spectrum seek out means of survival in a fast changing world that leaves theirs without. And kidnapping activity is a weapon to use against the hoarding of wealth. And drug activity....that is a weapon also. It isn't just bad guys versus good guys. It is a war between those who have and those who don't. Under certain conditions, I to might become a kidnapper. If that is what I saw as the only means to put food in the belly of my children. All these gang people are not evil monsters.

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=20548

 

[KeithF]

Not all barrios are the same. I see some where at Christmas time everyone comes together to design and put up decorations. They turn the barrio into a miniture wonderland. I see others where the people just don't see to care. There appears to be little community organization. The ones I see where more community seems to exist...may have something in the structure of the barrio that binds them. It is a square that the barrio surrounds or one main street that runs through the barrio. It draws people to it. I would not mind studying this to see what makes a Successful Barrio..

...I believe the barrio can be a rich place to live life...surrounded my family and friends. If we could take a barrio and cut it off from the rest of the world and erase all memory that there ever was another place....these people would be fine. But they know there is another place and they see the dream not the richness of their world.

I'm serious about this. There is a barrio near my home. We have friends that live there. It is a clean barrio. Why that one area is clean I don't know but it is always clean. They turn it into a wonderland at Christmas. I have met several people in that barrio. They appear to be good people. The kids there have a great time. There is always a ton of kids playing in the little side streets. I tell my wife sometimes...let us just rent a small place in that barrio and go over sometimes and just sit out in the front and let our daughter enjoy the richness of all the kids having a great time. I'm serious. I would really do this. I honestly believe these people have a rich life.

do these communities have a hierarchy? A 'leader' or an elder who has charisma? Someone who the community generally 'looks up to'? Perhaps there is something to do with respect, and perhaps respect for a figure head which leads to a respect for the community and with it, self respect? I'm not sure you can be a petty thief and have self respect. Is that what makes some poor areas 'good'?

I don't 'know' any of these things, I just wonder, from reading this thread, how it works?

 

[Snuffy]

Barrios do have some kind of leadership...I believe. I'm hoping someone comes on here and explains that for it is a very good question.

 

[Snuffy]

I could never become a kidnapper...but I'm trying to understand why groups of people move to extremes. It isn't as easy as good versus evil.

 

[Berzin]

I could never become a kidnapper...but I'm trying to understand why groups of people move to extremes. It isn't as easy as good versus evil.

Some of it also has to do with undiagnosed mental illnesses, low IQ and behavior problems such as ADHD. Add either casual or hard-core drinking and/or drug use and you can see how delinquency is'nt just a matter of upbringing and poverty.
All put together it makes for a very toxic mix indeed.

 

[Chip00]

Chip's advice

First of all let me say that Snuffy makes the BEST DAMNED B'BCUE this side of the carribean! However, lets' don't get to complicated about this. Let the people on this forum understand that you don't have to prove "anything" to have an interesting conversation with a group of Dominicans. The "SECRET" is communication - or lack of. The lack of the ability to speak the predominant language will ISOLATE one whever they are without exception. Case in point - I am a pure gringo - as Snuffy knows - however, I can be somewhat outgoing and just his evening I had a good time at the local colmado getting to know a few people that were new to me. Believe me when I tell you that it has nothing to do with proving yourself - AS LONG AS YOU CAN ADEQUETLY COMMUNICATE! Common Domincans are naturally INTIMIDATED by foreigners! This is normal human behaviour WHEREVER you go! When you start to talk to people in their own language about stuff that interests them the BARRIERS fall like dominoes!

As far as barrios go and the fact that Dominicans want to leave them - ALL DOMINICANS WHO AREN'T RICH WANT TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY! You just can't read too much into it. The Dominican psyche like most psyches of peopls in the world has an ESTABLISHED set of priorites. Most Dominicans don't care about order and planning for tomorrow - they care about what is important to most Dominicans staring with:

#1 Appear to be "educated" - this has nothing to do with actual education but "mannners" and how you carry yourself in front of others.

#2 Generosity - if your cheap with what you have you will NEVER be well respected. A well respected Dominican MUST be VERY generous.

#3 Sometimes (As a corollary) if you have wealth show it.

I urge anybody who plans on staying here to invest in learning the language to the best of one's abilities. My Spanish isn't that great and yet I have yet to find a Dominican who doesn't want to talk with me about whatever.

As far as barrios go I can tell you that even though my wife and I have "arrived" - nice house and all that stuff in a nice neighborhood - she just can't wait to vist her family on the weekends in either the city in "El Ejido", a typical barrio in Santiago or in "La Manzana" a typical country barrio in Moca - what does that tell one? If you understand the Dominican mentality you understand why so many come back from "Nuevai York" to be here!

 

[azabache]

"If we reach a point where we are perfectly safe does that take something away from us? If we feel no more discomfort ever...do we also lose our good feelings? If we sterilize our world...do we lose something?"



Sounds like the beginning of an outline of a plot for a StarTrek episode...

 

[Snuffy]

Chip...Good Post

Very good post and believe me I have learned something from it. Your spanish is very good and perhaps this is a large barrier for me that I did not take serious enough. As I have also told people...learn the language.

I am still not convinced on your three items that you state is most important to Dominicans. Especially number 2. I have yet to experience the generosity. Usually I am the one doing the giving or paying. And actually you throw a wrench into my new understanding of the Dominican. My take is that nothing is obligatory nor expected. In the states we are faced with all these obligations in relationships. Here, if one doesn't want to do something then you just make up a good excuse or never answer. A flat out NO is fine also. And that applies to foreigners also. You have no obligations and Dominicans expect nothing. You can say NO and they will not hold it against you. Actually when you say that about generosity...it baffles the hell out of me. It is interesting how that we all have very different experiences.

 

[bob saunders]

Interesting. My wife allways trys to show that she doesn't have money, because her fellow Dominican will beg, borrow or steal it. I agree than you need to show your generosity, but without being used(penaho).
#1 Yes appearances are everything- dress well and appear to be educated

 

[Berzin]

Hey Chip00...

...what do you mean that common dominicans are naturally intimidated by foreigners? I am really interested in how you view this...

From my experiences sometimes I have felt that in social situations they can be deferential, and sometimes they think we are idiots the way we spend money when we go to the DR. But I have'nt been able to tell for sure why this is, except for the idiot part.

 

[Snuffy]

AZA...those were serious questions to ponder. Because there are those in the modern world who believe they have an obligation to relieve the world of suffering by bringing the USA way of life to everyone. They see the uprooting of culture as a necessary requirement to end the suffering of these poor souls. "Poor souls in the campo, what are they thinking, they can't continue to live like that....we will build them concrete apartment buildings to live in...in some smog infested city....convince them that they will fair better in the city....buy their land cheap...we will feed them McDonalds and Dominoes Pizza in place of those raw vegetables that they have to actually pick from the ground themselves. Surely they need our air conditioning. They are just to ignorant to know any better. Once we educate them about what one can have in the USA...then they will see".

These people are fine without most of what we have.

 

[dv8]

i never saw dominicans intimidated by the fact of me being a foreigner, they start a conversation themselves, put effort to understand me (my spanish is not very good), they ask about polonia. children are straightforwardly well... all over me, the darker they are the more they are amazed by my whiteness.

as to generosity, the only generous people i see here are gringos, worried they may come as cheap. minovio, even thou he is well off is far from generous, he pays for the job done and if he is happy he will top it up with sth, he haggles with guys working on our flat but he will give them bottles of brugal when he is happy with the work done. just like any other dominican...

and, i believe chip is right, rich dominicans do not want to live their country, they know better than that. they know they have a good life in here, with grand houses and maids, same level of life in the USA costs a way more and is harder to maintain. rich dominicans are used to be... rich, used to their way of life. i spoke to few young people in minovio's family, they have no plans whatsoever to move from DR.

 

[Chip00]

My opinions/observations about Dominicans have been based on my experiences in Santiago and Moca - I know the dynamic is different on the coastal areas where there are a lot of tourists. My comment about Dominicans being intimidated by foreigners has nothing to do with physical presence. Typically when someone meets someone new there can be three general reactions. One, a feeling of inadequacy or nerviosness/fear, Two, benign interest/disinterest, three, a feeling opposite of #1 where one must "challenge" the "apparent" superiority. These are all normal human reactions. I shouldn't say that all Dominicans are intimidated by foreigners but many are. This is based on the fact that they really look up to the USA as the "place to be", the fact that foreigners typically have a lot of money to spend and time to spend it AND unfortunately it appears there is a higher level of respect given to peoples of "lighter" skin. Just because a Dominican robs you blind doesn't mean that he isn't intimidated by you - a lot of times a reaction to fear is violence or something forceful, even planned. Generally, Dominicans do not feel superior to foreigners from what I've seen.

As far as the generosity goes, I don't know how many times I've heard from somebody that they recieved this great gift from their brother from NY. Dominicans, if they have the means, brings LOTS of gifts from abroad - it really is given great respect here between Dominicans -if you don't believe me just listen to them! Not only that, stop by your neighboors house (in a barrio of course) at 12 pm (the door will always be open) and see if they don't bring you a plate of food. If someone here hasn't particularily witnessed this it's probably that you're still seen as an outsider. Quick fix, move to a barrio and learn Spanish and you'll see what I mean. -that's all you need. Once they see you are a normal "Joe" things will change.

With regard to the "jefe" structure, I haven't seen it. There is definitely a great amount of respect given to "certain" elders but the barrios typically have a "junta de vecinos" and things are discussed and voted on in that medium.

 

[shadInToronto]

both my parents grew up in a polish countryside, in wooden houses not much better than that, with whole family (in my mum's case parents plus 11 kids) in no more than two tiny rooms.

they run to the city as soon as they could live???? home and they never looked back.

and no worries, barrios will always be there, progress or not. there will be always be those who are stupid and lazy, who'd go on doing a lousy jobs so the rest of us, more fortunate, can fill our stomachs....

Not all poor people are stupid and lazy (and by inference your gramps were) but in your case lack of wealth is not the reason. :ermm:

 

[Matilda]

I find that if Dminicans have money, and they used to be poor, they give it away all the time. When I knew my husband first he had little money, but if he won on the slotmachines he always gave away at least half of his winnings. And they are all fab at sharing. They share food, clothes, let people borrow their cars, bikes etc. Totally alien to the British 'this is mine' culture and one of the hardest things for me to get used to - having to share and let other people drive my car etc. Mind you the kleptomaniac nature also means that sometimes they will 'take' rather than askl to have. The kids do that all the time, and I often see people walking down the street in my clothes which the kids have 'borrowed' then just given away!!!

 

[dv8]

Not all poor people are stupid and lazy (and by inference your gramps were) but in your case lack of wealth is not the reason. :ermm:

damn the spell-check! why is there no SENSE-check?
and why is it that other poor people can be stupid and lazy and i can only be lazy? i have my moments of stupidity too, lots of them, actually... :tired:

in POP those dominicans who started from zero have now grand houses and fancy cars, i do not see them giving "half" of their riches away...

but: i see lots of rich folks supporting charities orphanages and such.

now, that is against all my upbringing where it was up to the state to be charitable and up to individual to be greedy.

so now i am lazy, greedy and occasionally stupid...

 

[bob saunders]

I find that if Dminicans have money, and they used to be poor, they give it away all the time. When I knew my husband first he had little money, but if he won on the slotmachines he always gave away at least half of his winnings. And they are all fab at sharing. They share food, clothes, let people borrow their cars, bikes etc. Totally alien to the British 'this is mine' culture and one of the hardest things for me to get used to - having to share and let other people drive my car etc. Mind you the kleptomaniac nature also means that sometimes they will 'take' rather than askl to have. The kids do that all the time, and I often see people walking down the street in my clothes which the kids have 'borrowed' then just given away!!!

They are so generous with other people things that they all have locks, and bars everywhere I've even seem a lock on a telephone. Actually, something I never though I WOULD SAY, in my experience Americans are the most generous people. This, of course doesn't have anything to do with the thread.
Dominicans are very generous with family, with others, no different that most countries.

 

[Chip00]

Disagree

They are so generous with other people things that they all have locks, and bars everywhere I've even seem a lock on a telephone. Actually, something I never though I WOULD SAY, in my experience Americans are the most generous people. This, of course doesn't have anything to do with the thread.
Dominicans are very generous with family, with others, no different that most countries.

Sorry Bob I disagree. Have you really had the opportunity to live in a real barrio in a Dominican house with Dominican people? It may appear that they are not generous but that could depend on a lot of things. First of all someone who is dirt poor may not appear to be generous - what do they have to give besides? But if you have a friend like that show up at his house at 12 and see if he doesn't serve you a plate of food - don't be too surprised if he doesn't eat or eats a very small portion to accomodate you!

 

[NALs]

AZA...those were serious questions to ponder. Because there are those in the modern world who believe they have an obligation to relieve the world of suffering by bringing the USA way of life to everyone. They see the uprooting of culture as a necessary requirement to end the suffering of these poor souls. "Poor souls in the campo, what are they thinking, they can't continue to live like that....we will build them concrete apartment buildings to live in...in some smog infested city....convince them that they will fair better in the city....buy their land cheap...we will feed them McDonalds and Dominoes Pizza in place of those raw vegetables that they have to actually pick from the ground themselves. Surely they need our air conditioning. They are just to ignorant to know any better. Once we educate them about what one can have in the USA...then they will see".

These people are fine without most of what we have.

Remember what the Ford Motor Company used to say:

"What's good for Ford is good for America"

It now seems that: "Whats good for America is good for the world"

Snuffy, what you describe is not too far from being called neo-colonialism or perhaps imperialism.

-NALs