Time to change haiti's culture

[Berzin]

...We’re all supposed to politely respect each other’s cultures. But some cultures are more progress-resistant than others, and a horrible tragedy was just exacerbated by one of them...

For those discussing what Haiti "Needs", please take care to include the other side of the picture.

There was an article in the NY Times a few years ago, where photos showed rotting bags of food on ships docked in Haitian ports. This food was unable to benefit those who needed it most because of government corruption.

What are the people supposed to do about that?

The only ones that were having a feast were the rats and other vermin who were eating food meant for humanitarian aid.

The political arena from the grass-roots level is controlled by small armies of armed thugs that are fed and are supplied weapons by local and national politicians.

So you expect a poor, unarmed population to fight off these hoodlums how, exactly?

As an American, it is easy to lay blame on their doorstep and say "Yes, these people are poor because they WANT to be poor. Poverty is a state of mind".

But let's go back into our own history and see how how the agriculture and manufacturing sectors benefited from slave labor during slavery, cheap labor washing ashore on Ellis Island from Western Europe soon after the Industrial Revolution, and the taking of land by Congressional decree from the native Americans.

This is how the United States was built. Unless you can disprove this somehow, this is how it was. You are welcome to contradict me with a book or essay from any esteemed sociologist and/or political scientist.

So if Barbados is going to be used as an example for what Haiti should be but is not, please educate us on it's agricultural and manufacturing sector-how dependent is their economy on foreign imports? How much of their GDP is dependent on tourism? What is the state of their educational system (public and private)? What percentage of their land is owned by natives? Where do the elites educate their children?

All these things make a difference and from these answers we can derive a clearer view as to where Haiti needs to go and how it should get there. That is, according to you.

Because what you are implying NOW is a bit different from what you were insinuating yesterday (or maybe it isn't and I was the one mistaken in giving you the benefit of the doubt). What you are saying now is that there is something innate about the Haitian people that allows for their present conditions, that it is their very Haitian-ness that is the problem.

I give you the floor to clarify your position.

 

[ExtremeR]

Rescue, repair, rebuild and re-think... This is exactly the point I believe the OP was trying to make. There needs to be a change in Haiti. Very sad that such a disaster might be what is needed to precipitate such a change.

That path of events is what should take place in a catastrophe like this, what we cannot do is overlap the re-thing stage onto the rescue stage, because frankly we are still not out of that first one. My main problem is that if people start wasting resources into what to do with Haiti's culture and politics, instead of focusing what they can do to help the CURRENT situation can do more harm than good.

Evaluating Haiti's culture NOW won't magically pull a concrete wall off a hanging survivor, or worse yet, won't stop the incoming plagues that is being forecasted by most respected doctors in the DR due to bodies decomposing in the streets (what is left of) of PAP. Helping the Red Cross will make a difference, giving donations so epidemiologist can go and contain the incoming epidemics will make a difference, even sending food and water will make a huge difference, talking about Haiti's politic and culture right now won't do anything.

In 2 weeks I completely agree the subject should be on the table, but now we have to put our priorities straight.

 

[Adrian Bye]

There's no question Haiti needs infrastructure. Yet there's no point building it without changing the culture.

And sure, Haiti needs to use some strategic advantage to survive.

- Cuba is EMBARGOED by the USA, and they're reasonably ok.
- The cayman islands has little to support it, yet they turned into an offshore tax center.
- Tourism is a big industry for many caribbean countries and they all figure out how to get along.

You're exactly right, there is a fundamental problem with the haitian people. Its not the people themselves, but their culture and how they were raised.

 

[Frank the Tank]

I know what Haiti needs, RacerX as Minister of Information and 9 million Che Guevarra tee shirts.

 

[NALs]

Haitians should copy the institutions, laws and other legal procedures from the Dominican Republic. Its the easiest and closest country to them in every single aspect (figuratively and literally). At the very least, copying the DR will give them a society that may not be perfect, but still manages to function.

Of course, before they are ready to do that, they will have to get rid of their hatred for all things Dominican. I don't know to what extent the following comments reflect the overall Haitian sentiment (we can never know what people are thinking in private) but, if this is a sign of widespread beliefs among Haitians, I don't see Haiti progressing any time soon. These messages were posted in the last few days on Ren? Preval's blog (the link is at the end of this post):

RE: Preval's Opinion about Dominican Aid To Haiti

What kind of people to think that the Haitians people will change their perception because of maybe some food donations humanitarian by enemies who have been horrendously cruel to them for most entire lifetime?

Maybe, I know why. The same story with the U.S.

You just read a reply to Message 10979
Posted by Jean Pe On Facebook on 12/15/09 10:21 PM

---------------------

RE: Preval's Opinion about Dominican Aid To Haiti

Preval is a fool and a booki at the same time. Not every Haitian is like that fool. We do not need any aid from dominicam.

The Hell with them.

You just read a reply to Message 10979
Posted by Samuel on 12/15/09 2:12 PM

------------------------

RE: Preval's Opinion about Dominican Aid To Haiti

I find the Dominican President to be quiet arrogant, for him to be meddling in Haiti's business as he does is unthinkable.

You just read a reply to Message 17819
Posted by Zac on 12/15/09 4:14 PM

--------------------------

That type of mentality (anti-dominicanism) has to go!

prevalhaiti.com

 

[Adrian Bye]

Consider the performance of the NGO's in Haiti in light of this article:

Earthquake Compounds Haiti?s Economic Damage: Chart of the Day - Bloomberg.com

Earthquake Compounds Haiti’s Economic Damage

Jan. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Haiti’s most powerful earthquake in 240 years followed a half-century of economic contraction in the country, the poorest in the Western Hemisphere, relative to the rest of the world.

The CHART OF THE DAY shows gross domestic product per person in Haiti and globally from 1960 to 2008, based on data compiled by the World Bank. The top panel displays the dollar amounts, adjusted for inflation. The bottom panel depicts the ratio between Haiti’s GDP per capita and the world’s.

The ratio plunged to 6.8 percent in 2008, the most recent year available, from 31.5 percent five decades ago. Most of the decline occurred after 1980, when the country’s economic output peaked at $804 for every Haitian.

Haiti’s economy shrank 49 percent on a per-person basis between 1980 and 2004, when GDP hit bottom at $402. The 2008 figure was $410.

Fifty-four percent of Haitians earn less than $1 a day and 78 percent survive on less than $2, according to the World Bank. GDP was $7 billion in 2008.

The earthquake was the country’s strongest since 1770, Kristin Marano, a geophysicist at the U.S. Geological Survey, told the Associated Press. The magnitude 7.0 temblor was centered near Haiti’s largest city, Port-au-Prince

 

[Onions/Carrots]

Well whether the Dominicans on this forum like it or not, the international community will FORCE, DEMAND, OBLIGATE the DR to take in not only 50,000 but 50 million Haitian refugees (exaggeration noted and placed to make a point) if the situation is deemed necessary.

You know all that money the DR has borrowed and loves because borrowed money is EASY money.

Well, my sappy and silly friends- this always comes with certain strings attached.

If the DR were to renege on the INTL community's demands, they could easily tighten the financial noose (interest rates, roll-overs, resets, re-financing, etc) around the DR's neck.

So, stop arguing about issues that have already been decided beforehand.

 

[Willowtears]

Well whether the Dominicans on this forum like it or not, the international community will FORCE, DEMAND, OBLIGATE the DR to take in not only 50,000 but 50 million Haitian refugees (exaggeration noted and placed to make a point) if the situation is deemed necessary.

You know all that money the DR has borrowed and loves because borrowed money is EASY money.

Well, my sappy and silly friends- this always comes with certain strings attached.

If the DR were to renege on the INTL community's demands, they could easily tighten the financial noose (interest rates, roll-overs, resets, re-financing, etc) around the DR's neck.

So, stop arguing about issues that have already been decided beforehand.

Your probably correct, but it wouldn't hurt to express our concerns...right?:cheeky:

 

[The Clear Enigma]

As someone who wishes to do more than he already has,as an observer from just a little to afar ,who cannot actually grasp the magnitude of the depth of sorrow going on over there,I just ask myself certain things and would appreciate some timely feedback.
After all the survivors have been gathered to the last one,and the ones who have sadly perished been given a proper burial,after the sick,weak and bewildered are taken care of exponentially and the starving giving meals and water for their welfare,when all the debris is cleared and some of the main operations are running again,roads are cleared,electricity and running water operable,when things get as close to what they were last week(which was not much)however humanly possible that can be achieved,WHAT NEXT?? How can things change for the better in Haiti? Is it possible? How long?Why?Why?Why?:ermm:

 

[Chirimoya]

All decently planned emergency operations will have a post-disaster reconstruction strategy.

 

[PeterInBrat]

I am getting pretty tired of people putting the blame on the Haitians and their "voodoo" culture as being the cause of their misfortunes. The DR had a "relatively" benevolent dictator until 1961(thanks CIA) and Haiti had dictatorship until the collapse of their food independence caused by the Reagan administration.

If you read the history of Haiti from a Haitian perspective, the country was pretty much food independent until the 1980s. It was under Reagan that the disasterous massacre of the creole pigs happened, Reagan who created import quotas that collapsed the world market for sugar and Reagan who dumped surplus rice from subsidized US farmers that put the Haitian rice farmers out of business.

So much of Haiti's environmental problems come from the charcoal industry which came from the Duvaliers monopoly on petrochemicals. The DR long ago imposed very strict regulations for cutting down trees and this resulted in Haiti actually exporting charcoal into the DR and this continues today.

The most major mistake in the attempt to "fix" Haiti was the urbanization of the population to work in sweat shops for export to the US. Factories were built, but no sewers or potable water in Port au Prince. No one could afford much more than glorified mud huts because wages for factory work and the instability lead to the loss of most of these jobs.

What I have seen time and time again in development is foreigners come from abroad and assume the things they want are the things the locals want. I saw a Peace Corp volunteer try to introduce raised bed gardening in a remote village in the DR and it was obvious that the villagers had ZERO interest in the exotic vegatbles he was growing. Meanwhile there were no eggs being produced and they were all being carted in on dirt roads from the nearest city.

Where the Duvaliers raped the wealth of the country, Trujillo invested tremendously into the DR's infrastructure. All those highways, schools and running water were started in his time. Trujillo treated the DR as HIS country and despite having a poor record of how he treated his enemies, he was a damn good manager and thought well into the future. The Duvaliers were operating on borrowed time and eventually took the money and ran. Baby Doc still lives comfortably in France when he should be burning in hell.

The two books I suggest to read are "Collapse" by Jared Diamond and "Why the Cocks Fight" by Michele Wucker.

I also suggest these two articles written by Haitians regarding the impact of the Reagan years:

Haiti Solidarity*:*Haiti's Food Crisis: Imposing Hunger on the People of Haiti

Haiti Solidarity*:*Haitian Pigs Meet Globalization by Jean-Bertrand Aristide

 

[Adrian Bye]

Haiti has been going downhill since a lot longer than the 1980s. Look at the last graph, the ratio of haiti vs global GDP. I think the NGOs have a lot to answer for.

And this is from a country next door to the richest country on earth.

(robert, you may want to mirror this pic, as we'll delete it sooner or later).

 

[bob saunders]

I am getting pretty tired of people putting the blame on the Haitians and their "voodoo" culture as being the cause of their misfortunes. The DR had a "relatively" benevolent dictator until 1961(thanks CIA) and Haiti had dictatorship until the collapse of their food independence caused by the Reagan administration.

If you read the history of Haiti from a Haitian perspective, the country was pretty much food independent until the 1980s. It was under Reagan that the disasterous massacre of the creole pigs happened, Reagan who created import quotas that collapsed the world market for sugar and Reagan who dumped surplus rice from subsidized US farmers that put the Haitian rice farmers out of business.

So much of Haiti's environmental problems come from the charcoal industry which came from the Duvaliers monopoly on petrochemicals. The DR long ago imposed very strict regulations for cutting down trees and this resulted in Haiti actually exporting charcoal into the DR and this continues today.

The most major mistake in the attempt to "fix" Haiti was the urbanization of the population to work in sweat shops for export to the US. Factories were built, but no sewers or potable water in Port au Prince. No one could afford much more than glorified mud huts because wages for factory work and the instability lead to the loss of most of these jobs.

What I have seen time and time again in development is foreigners come from abroad and assume the things they want are the things the locals want. I saw a Peace Corp volunteer try to introduce raised bed gardening in a remote village in the DR and it was obvious that the villagers had ZERO interest in the exotic vegatbles he was growing. Meanwhile there were no eggs being produced and they were all being carted in on dirt roads from the nearest city.

Where the Duvaliers raped the wealth of the country, Trujillo invested tremendously into the DR's infrastructure. All those highways, schools and running water were started in his time. Trujillo treated the DR as HIS country and despite having a poor record of how he treated his enemies, he was a damn good manager and thought well into the future. The Duvaliers were operating on borrowed time and eventually took the money and ran. Baby Doc still lives comfortably in France when he should be burning in hell.

The two books I suggest to read are "Collapse" by Jared Diamond and "Why the Cocks Fight" by Michele Wucker.

I also suggest these two articles written by Haitians regarding the impact of the Reagan years:

Haiti Solidarity*:*Haiti's Food Crisis: Imposing Hunger on the People of Haiti

Haiti Solidarity*:*Haitian Pigs Meet Globalization by Jean-Bertrand Aristide

And I suggest you read: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32294.pdf

 

[PeterInBrat]

I see your graph as only verifying my point. In the first graph, they were stagnent economically until 1980s and then there is the decline starting with the creole pig massacre. Comparing their growth to global is not really part of my arguement and if you look at other agrarian cultures I doubt you will see much economic growth either. Haiti was a subsistance agrarian society that used little actual cash as was the DR for anyone living in rural areas.

You are comparing Haiti's economic growth to the world as a whole when it should be compared to Guatemala, Guyana, and other countries that are primarily subsistance farmers. Remove the economic boomtimes of the US and other first world countries in the 50's and I very much doubt you will see the same graph. Certainly the DR did better in that time, but I have explained the reasons for that.

If you can find it, I would like to see something on Haiti's food security over the years. Looking at GDP in dollars can mean that they can be exporting textiles in sweat shops as economic growth which does little to nothing to benefit 99% of the population. The industry of Haiti that did exist primarly benefited foreign investors and the Duvaliers.

Could you post a link to your graph?

 

[Onions/Carrots]

You're exactly right, there is a fundamental problem with the haitian people. Its not the people themselves, but their culture and how they were raised.

Spurious correlation- your back of the envelope assessment is backed by nothing but your own assumptions.

There's no question Haiti needs infrastructure. Yet there's no point building it without changing the culture.

You can be charged by any SOC/ANt dept. with ethnocentrism. Their culture is not causative of the economic ills that have befallen that nation.

Of course, before they are ready to do that, they will have to get rid of their hatred for all things Dominican.

Inconclusive, not all Haitians feel this way. I'd like to see a poll on these issues but the questions would have to be formulated in a way as to not introduce bias.

 

[Adrian Bye]

Its not about specific reasons why a country did or didn't do better. What matters are the INCENTIVES. Haiti has a culture with broken incentives, thus when there are particular massive short-term opportunities people don't see them or take the risk on them.

link to the graph: http://newyork.io/haiti.png

 

[Adrian Bye]

You can be charged by any SOC/ANt dept. with ethnocentrism. Their culture is not causative of the economic ills that have befallen that nation.

Thats an intelligent comment. You don't know me, but I'm definitely not ethnocentric.

However it is true that countries and cultures do rise and fall over the years. Portugal used to be an economic powerhouse, now its almost a 3rd world country in the EU. Italy isn't doing great, nor is Turkey compared to how they used to be. We can't rule out a subtle culture change which changed things though.

China USED to be massively powerful until Mao came in with the cultural revolution and brought the country down -- effectively a culture change to communism. Now we're seeing the chinese come back with their unique version of capitalism.

 

[Squat]

... the country was pretty much food independent until the 1980s. It was under Reagan that the disasterous massacre of the creole pigs happened, Reagan who created import quotas that collapsed the world market for sugar and Reagan who dumped surplus rice from subsidized US farmers that put the Haitian rice farmers out of business.

I strongly agree on the creole pigs & Miami rice issues. It is a historical fact, although not very well known... That said, I would say the links you posted are from a quite leftist website.
As of voodoo, my feelings after more than 12 years of continually visiting Haiti, is that it is a burden to society. It has a negative impact on mentality.

 

[cobraboy]

That said, I would say the links you posted are from a quite leftist website.

Looks like a front for Aristide...

 

[RacerX]

I know what Haiti needs, RacerX as Minister of Information and 9 million Che Guevarra tee shirts.

The revolution will not be televised.