Unnecessary use of the subjunctive

[Norma Rosa]

I do not wish to generalize by saying that this is happening in the entire region of el Cibao, but in Salcedo, the misuse of the subjunctive is widely spread. They are using the subjunctive where the indicative should go; this error occurs mainly with the third person plural (nosotros).

Ex.: Nosotros tengamos que ir a trabajar. (It should be tenemos.)

Nosotros volvamos pronto. (It should be volvemos, volveremos.)

I wonder what has given rise to this phenomenon.
Comments?

 

[Chip]

As we discussed I have noticed this as well and not exclusively with the third person plural. However, being that I am not a native speaker I understood it's use to be correct as it's use is widespread here.

Also, I don't remember hearing the usage as you posted above but more or less what I used in my conversation with you.

I think it would be helpful for all of us learning Spanish to post a few examples of when it should be used, like for example when following cuando, querer, decir.

 

[Marianopolita]

Not unncessary but rather incorrect-

This is a very unusual phenomenon indeed regarding usage of the subjunctive. Normally it's the other way around where the indicative is used instead of subjunctive and this happens on two levels. First by native speakers in very colloquial speech but in formal speech or writing the subjunctive is used as it should. Second of all, most foreigners don't master the subjunctive especially in complex sentence structures where the main clause is really separated from the subordinate clause. Foreigners who do use the subjunctive well usually have grammar mastery in all the languages they speak and have also studied the subjunctive in Spanish as a separate subject. This is possible- el subjuntivo en espa?ol. Since it's a very important part of Spanish grammar that's not going to disappear anytime soon, it's really important to understand it and use it well. IMO, no speaker can classify himself/ herself as fluent in Spanish without proper usage of the subjunctive.

I read those sample sentences a few times and I tried to test myself to see if I would say those phrases with the subjunctive and I couldn't continue. It's awkward and just makes no sense. There is regional usage of the subjunctive in the Spanish-speaking world without a doubt especially with the imperfect subjunctive. I remember once two co-workers of mine got into a bit of an argument. One was Venezuelan the other Colombian. One said something along the lines of 'pudiera ser posible' (Venezuelan) and the Colombian co-worker corrected him and said 'no debe ser podr?a ser posible'. They went back and forth for a while and finally they both said 'preguntemos a Lesley, a ver lo que dice'. I recognized immediately that it was a regional speech variation of usage of the subjunctive for the conditional. I would say podr?a to show probability and not pudiera but I understood why it caused a debate. In some zones in Latin America you will hear these variations. That's why grammarians, linguists, socio-linguists and other language professionals divide the Spanish-speaking regions to analyze and identify certain grammatical patterns and forms. Spanish from the North Andean region, Spanish from the coast of Colombia, Venezuela and Panama. As well, the old name Alta Per? which is modern day Bolivia with Baja Per? which is modern day Peru have identical speech patterns. Same with R?o de la Plata region especially Argentina and Uruguay. One has to listen and observe because there are differences and foreigners should not pick up these incorrect regionalisms by imitation. It's not recommended. What's recommended is to know your grammar to decipher correct speech from incorrect speech.

BTW- nosotros is the first person plural and not the third person which is ustedes. Not sure if it was a typo on your part.


-L.

 

[Marianopolita]

Mandato= command form

One co-worker is saying to the other- Let's ask Lesley.

The command form (nosotros) is preguntemos.

This is another rare aspect of Spanish as compared to the other sister romance languages, the subjunctive is used to form some of the commands.


-L.

 

[montreal]

I think it would be helpful for all of us learning Spanish to post a few examples of when it should be used, like for example when following cuando, querer, decir.

Right Chip, verbs of emotion and words like cuando, si, quizas and tal vez might require the use of the subjuntive form. Although only when referring to certain times (past or future). For example, when using cuando AND refering to the future (presente de subjuntivo) or the past (imperfecto de subjuntivo). Quizas and tal vez also require the usage of subjunctive but only if they come before the verb. That is just a few examples, you could write a book on the usage of subjunctive (There are probably many actually!)

Another important usage of subjuntivo are exclamations (Ojala!) or (Que lo pases bien!) and repetitive expressions (Pase lo que pase)

Perhaps Lesley could expand on the subject, she is the resident expert

 

[Norma Rosa]

BTW- nosotros is the first person plural and not the third person which is ustedes. Not sure if it was a typo on your part.


-L.

Yes, indeed. Thanks.

 

[Norma Rosa]

Also, I don't remember hearing the usage as you posted above but more or less what I used in my conversation with you.

[/I].

I heard it a lot in el campo and it was not music to my ears. I even made the mistake of correcting a person. What is mind buggling is that it seems to be a new trend, a thing that could well be an overcorrection.

 

[Norma Rosa]

IMO, no speaker can classify himself/ herself as fluent in Spanish without proper usage of the subjunctive.-L.

Lesley, I don't think one can safely utter such a statement, for if it is true, then many individuals from Spanish-speaking regions don't speak their mother tongue with fluency.

Norma

 

[Marianopolita]

Responding-

I started learning spanish when i was 16... and subsequently lived and went to spanish schools in santiago for 5 years... but my problems were with when/how to use the subjuntivo ... i kinda know it now... but originally i had said i would never understand it.... also the command form... i get that... except when i read the "preguntamos a Lesley" you can understand it as a kinda question right? if it were said with that tone, it would be correct, right Lesley?

-Unfortunately, I am not sure what you are asking. I read your post several times and I'm not sure what you are trying to clarify. As well, my original post states 'preguntemos' and not 'preguntamos'. The latter would not be correct to convey 'let's' question or not. Maybe someone else can clarify this for you.

Right Chip, verbs of emotion and words like cuando, si, quizas and tal vez might require the use of the subjuntive form. Although only when referring to certain times (past or future). For example, when using cuando AND refering to the future (presente de subjuntivo) or the past (imperfecto de subjuntivo). Quizas and tal vez also require the usage of subjunctive but only if they come before the verb. That is just a few examples, you could write a book on the usage of subjunctive (There are probably many actually!)

Another important usage of subjuntivo are exclamations (Ojala!) or (Que lo pases bien!) and repetitive expressions (Pase lo que pase)

Perhaps Lesley could expand on the subject, she is the resident expert

-Thanks montreal. I have said it many times in the past, the subjunctive in Spanish is a topic in itself. As a result, I have never started a thread on it. It's too big and deep and I believe people should have a certain level of knowledge first to understand it or it can become a huge challenge for the OP. As well, this is Norma's thread so I will gladly let her run with it. For once I can watch.

Lesley, I don't think one can safely utter such a statement, for if it is true, then many individuals from Spanish-speaking regions don't speak their mother tongue with fluency.

Norma

-Please go back and read my opening paragraph. The phrases before the one you quoted clearly indicate that I am referring to foreigners when they are assessing their own Spanish. What I mean by 'fluent' in this case is using the subjunctive as a benchmark. To rephrase this if someone is learning Spanish and is assessing their level, the subjunctive can and should be a benchmark or one of the criteria in determining if one is a beginner, intermediate or advance in their level. Not fluency in the sense of speaking (la fluidez- 2. Facilidad, soltura para hacer algo: habla alem?n con fluidez).


Maybe this definition of fluency clarifies what I mean:

fluent-
c: having or showing mastery of a subject or skill <fluent in mathematics>

-the mastery of skill in this case as per the definition would be understanding the usage of the subjunctive.

I think your example is a regional anomaly.


-LDG.

 

[Chirimoya]

Wasn't there a TV ad a few years ago with a person saying "nosotros vengamos de La Vega"?
This gave the impression it was a recognised regional quirk. And yes, it does seem like overcorrection, an uneducated person's attempt to 'talk proper' like the insertion of unnecessary Ss.

 

[Norma Rosa]

I do believe it is an overcorrection. Although in certain regions of the DR there is a problem with the subjunctive mood, judging by what I have observed, the problem is mainly with those verbs of the second and third conjugation (er, ir) in the present tense, first person plural.

In forming the subjunctive, er & ir verbs take the opposite vowel (a) which is the same vowel upon which the stress or accent falls. This causes the first person plural (nosotros ) to sound quite odd, awkward, to say the least.
Ar verbs are not that problematic. They take the opposite vowel (e) and the resulting sound is a very pleasant one: cantemos, bailemos, juguemos, hablemos, preguntemos- in spite of the fact that this vowel also carries the stress.

Let's look at some er/ir verbs – (first person plural - present subjunctive)
comer - comamos.ser - seamossaber - sepamos
caber - quepamosvenir - vengamos decir - digamos
salir - salgamos morir - muramos

The brain seems to have a disdain for such sounds; it likes comfort. Educated people accept the phonetic discomfort of these verbs because we know that they are grammatically correct. Many of us were exposed to them from early childhood through a decent learning environment, reading, TV and radio programs, good teachers, etc. and we know that they are supposed to be just so in spite of their ungraceful sound. What do some uneducated people do with them? I have observed two things:

1. They apply the same rule that governs ar verbs, thus producing an erroneous subjunctive with certain verbs: venguemos, salguemos.
2. They accept the opposite vowel (a) but transfer the stress to the third syllable. The word then becomes, by its accentuation, esdr?jula: mu?ramos (also incorrect ).
Today, radios and TV sets abound and campesinos hear the news and watch telenovelas. There is language input like never before. In their effort to absorv and produce what they hear, oftentimes they err. Perhaps their children or maybe their grandchildren will get it right.

Norma

 

[Norma Rosa]

Here is that list again which is not very clear on the above post. Sorry, no time to edit.

Let's look at some er/ir verbs – (first person plural - present subjunctive)


comer-comamos, ser-seamos, saber-sepamos,
caber-quepamos, venir-vengamos, decir-digamos,
salir-salgamos, morir-muramos
Norma

 

[montreal]

I believe the use of subjunctive is a very high-level that native speakers struggle with frequently. I can understand how those who never had the chance to learn the rules of subjunctive usage, use it erroneously. They hear the use of sabe and others times sepa, supiera or supiere without noticing the minute difference in phrase construction. I believe it all boils down to the lack of education and to a lesser degree, the will of people not caring to speak "well".

Perhaps by throwing in subjunctive (even if unnecessary) they think they are speaking "better"

 

[wuarhat]

May I recommend this book (501 Spanish Verbs; Barrons; Language)?

Amazon.com: 501 Spanish Verbs: with CD-ROM (Barron's Foreign Language Guides): Christopher Kendris, Theodore Kendris: Books

It has very good introduction in the use and formation of fourteen tenses, four of which are subjunctive, followed by the complete conjugation of 501 verbs in all the tenses, plus the imperative mood. After which there is a list of another 1100+ verbs with a pointer to one of the 501 models, which is conjugated the same way.

 

[Norma Rosa]

I believe the use of subjunctive is a very high-level that native speakers struggle with frequently. I can understand how those who never had the chance to learn the rules of subjunctive usage, use it erroneously. They hear the use of sabe and others times sepa, supiera or supiere without noticing the minute difference in phrase construction. I believe it all boils down to the lack of education and to a lesser degree, the will of people not caring to speak "well".

Perhaps by throwing in subjunctive (even if unnecessary) they think they are speaking "better"

This mood is problematic not only in the DR.
Let's keep in mind that school is not the only learning vehicle there is. In fact, when it comes to the developing of one's native tongue, one learns mainly by imitation. But, as with everything else in life, good role models are important.

Some people do not care how they speak,that is true, but there is also group pressure.

Norma

 

[Marianopolita]

montreal-

I partially agree with what you have said. The reason being is you have to specify what level of the subjunctive usage in Spanish challenges speakers. Since people learn to speak before they learn anything about grammar (if at all) verbs forms and usage are already embedded in their speech.

In my experience basic subjunctive usage is not a problem which includes knowing the actual verb form and correct usage. It's the more complex structures that pose difficulty and 'los verbos vac?os' that cause problems. An example is the verb decir. It totally depends on what the speaker wishes to convey. If I say 'digo que viene' vs.'digo que venga' there' a difference. Both phrases are correct but have different meanings. This is a classic 'verbo vac?o' in Spanish. I have not heard struggles with basic subjunctive usage in all four tenses and if so in my opinion it's rare. The more complex structures do cause speakers grief but still not to the level where it poses a threat to its disappearance or selected usage by speakers like in English. In English only a small percentage of speakers use it and I believe repetitive errors and incorrect forms over a long period of time are the primary reasons for the change from the subjunctive to the indicative. I find it annoying to hear 'I wish I was rich' instead of 'I wish I were rich'. The former just makes no sense. It's a contrary to fact statement. In Spanish these types of phrases are not problematic and if used incorrectly it is normally regional.

The future subjunctive, supiere as you mentioned is not used in Spanish so I am not sure what you are referring to in your example. You may still find the form in legal documents or the Bible but not in the spoken language. The subjunctive mood is a fundamental component of Spanish grammar. It's very difficult to speak and write correctly without it at all levels. Some may err on knowing the correct forms but most speakers have a solid grasp of the subjunctive since from day one you hear-espero que sea, quiero que me digas, es posible que venga, ?que te diviertas! (mandato), me avisas cuando termines etc. those are basic forms that are an essential part of speaking Spanish.

In socio-linguistic studies it has been noted that the subjunctive is relatively sound in the first generation of Spanish speakers who are raised outside of Spanish-speaking countries but it is not as strong in the second generation and almost non-existent in the third. Therefore, you may be referring to this break down by generation in your post. I have heard incorrect usage by the first and second generation along with other grammatical errors that people who grew up in a Spanish-speaking country normally do not make. For example, it's cold- es fr?o and it s/b 'hace fr?o. Es fr?o= English.


-LDG.

 

[Chirimoya]

And on the other hand, if your first language is Spanish or French and your second language is English, you tend to overuse the subjunctive in English.

He asked that I hold his hand.

instead of the more natural:

He asked me to hold his hand.

 

[sokitoumi]

I think this makes me want to give up trying to learn-can anyone explain the positive tu form of the subjunctive and why the end letter changes

 

[Norma Rosa]

And on the other hand, if your first language is Spanish or French and your second language is English, you tend to overuse the subjunctive in English.

He asked that I hold his hand.

instead of the more natural:

He asked me to hold his hand.

Yes, because the structure of one's first language overshadows the other one is trying to learn. This happens mainly with adults because our brains are already 'programmed'. It takes many years and a lot of practice to be able to fully disconnect one language from the other - if that ever happens.

Can one serve two masters?

 

[Norma Rosa]

I think this makes me want to give up trying to learn-can anyone explain the positive tu form of the subjunctive and why the end letter changes

Sorry, sokitoumi, my brain is not functioning well today. What do you mean by "positive tu form"?