Us troops, helping haiti or themselves??

[engineerfg]

Hi There,


I've been to Haiti too, and being there isn't going to change 3 simple facts:


1. 'This' money may be donated - yes I agree. But it's a spit in the bucket compared to all of Haiti's working capital which the majority of which is debt. In fact the world bank debt total since day one exceeds 3 billion. Over 2 billion of which has been 'forgiven' now thanks to politicking. But if you count carefully, the interest paid on the debt has come from 'this' type of money -- if it were not for foreign aid, the interest payments on the debt could not be serviced. The interest payments on the debt (which at present stands at about a billion), have in fact repaid the majority of the 'canceled' debt. If you think I"m making this up, I encourage you to go to the world bank website, it's all documented, you can see an annual report and balance sheet for haiti's different restructuring loans all consolidated. You can do the historical math yourself...


2. After you follow step 2, you will then realize that much like the sub-prime loan scam, the indebtedness of haiti is by design. And that yes, 'this' money may be donated, but the donated money helps pay the interest on the debt that really pay for the majority of the capital infrastructure projects.


3. And finally I agree -- Haiti doesn't have the human capital to undertake these projects on it's own. Which is actually an interesting talking point. If you were the president of haiti, which path would you undertake:

1. Bring in the foreign firms, have real RFP's, negotiate the best price, and ensure all contracts have a 'haiti first' approach - where possible locals are employed, where possible locals are TRAINED for future development, or where possible all ventures are undertaken with a local joint venture partner (this is what China did for 50 years to get 'up to speed'); OR

2. bring in the foreign firms, let all the profit, human skills, and value from the contracts remain in the foreign firms, and pay an inflated price - let's be honest, bectel et al don't get haiti a 'good' rate, it's always marked up to ensure profitability and yes there are still near cost-plus projects going on always.


If you do your research, you will understand that one of the biggest criticisms of Aristide - what was called corruption - was that he wanted the biggest infrastructure project - water purification - to go through the route described in #1 above, and not #2.

 

[Chip]

I honestly doubt the Haitan governemtn will be allowed to do anything but put a stamp on the approval. After all it's not their funds and if it were you know as well as anyone else where it will go.

Fact is with major projects it's always the big companies who get them and one has to pay through the nose. If you are an engineer like your handle suggests, you should know this. In spite of this major projects have been done by firms as such over the last hundred of years or more with typically excellent results and benefits to the public that last for years. Why should we hope or expect anything different in Haiti?

 

[Chip]

1. Bring in the foreign firms, have real RFP's, negotiate the best price, and ensure all contracts have a 'haiti first' approach - where possible locals are employed, where possible locals are TRAINED for future development, or where possible all ventures are undertaken with a local joint venture partner (this is what China did for 50 years to get 'up to speed'); OR

With regard to this specific passage this is as "pie in the sky" as it comes. While you say you've been to Haiti have you actually had a chance to see any surveying or engineering plans?

I can assure you I have. I saw a survey for a client's property that was at a level one might expect of a survey done 400 years ago it was so bad. In fact I've seen surveys done over two hundred years ago in North Carolina that were better. Is there any professional organizations like the ASCE in the States to ensure good engineering or surveying? I think not.

Therefore to talk about "where possible locals are employed, where possible locals are TRAINED for future development" is just as far from reality as one can get. FYI, all good engineers and other professionals from Hatii move abroad to get experience. If you find a good engineer or whatnot in POP it's because he lived and trained abroad. Why would that be? Simply put because there is so little work involving engineers that none of the locals can get any experience.

Not to worry, when all of this infrastructure gets built someone will still have to maintain it and add more as it becomes necessary. As should be common sense, inevitably locals will be hired in some aspect for the mere fact that they speak creole. I look to see many Haitian professional living in Florida return to such positions. If the Haitian government doesn't completely blow it who knows they might just stay and contribute to a better Hati. This is the best and most realistic scenario that we can hope for. Everything else is wishful thinking.

 

[engineerfg]

Thanks for the response. Consider these points:

I honestly doubt the Haitan governemtn will be allowed to do anything but put a stamp on the approval. After all it's not their funds and if it were you know as well as anyone else where it will go.

That's a curious position that all my friends take too to rationalize the situation. I would agree with you if we're talking about aid - but since the majority of the working capital for all infrastructure projects comes from DEBT (as in they have to repay for it, either through foregoing investment in social development, or just future hand to mouth living), then technically it is 'THEIR" money. Imagine your bank lending you money but then saying -- actually you can only buy a blue car, and only if it's overpriced.


The second counter point to this rationalization is really this -- you're saying hey if we put 'their' money into 'their' hands, then they would distribute it to 'their' friends. Fair enough I agree. But just hold on a second, let's not forget that we are **DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING*** -- it's the American public's money (after all IMF and World Bank are just fronts and they get their money supply from their member countries fees, the fees are a function of GDP, so..do the math, at least on this hemisphere, this is mostly Canadian and American money, and sure enough, the big projects get distributed to the corresponding companies in those countries. So why throw stones from glass houses? "we" as in our governments, take 'our' public money, and distribute it to those that lobby them the hardest in the private sector.... that's not corruption? just because corporate shells and tax planning occurs, doesn't mean it's not the same level of theft... and most importantly, it's not 'free market economics' as our leaders espouse.

We preach to haiti to practice free markets, that they don't have their own human resources and they should lean on us by privitizing industries and letting our expertise do the trick, but then...when it comes to having real free market RFP's, all the projects go to 'our guys' who are 'in with the senators' etc.

Fact is with major projects it's always the big companies who get them and one has to pay through the nose. If you are an engineer like your handle suggests, you should know this. In spite of this major projects have been done by firms as such over the last hundred of years or more with typically excellent results and benefits to the public that last for years. Why should we hope or expect anything different in Haiti?

I am an engineer yes. And like I said above, I think it's a rationalization to just say 'oh well big companies always get the best deals'. It's not true, at least not in Canada or in California (that I know of). GOvernment RFP's are competitive, are thorough, and time consuming, and the government tries to get the best deal for tax payers -- after all they have to be accountable to their constituents.

There are OTHER models for Haiti to adopt. For example in malaysia, or China. In China as I noted, foreign firms are allowed to come in, but they have to have a joint venture partner that's local. So basically SOME of the profit stays in the country. Conversely in Malaysia, they have similar programs requiring a portion of the shareholders in each venture (or employees) to be local trained or local sourced. Yes some firms find that it's just cheaper to just pay people to sit around and do nothing, but at least SOME of the 'profit' that's 'their money' stays in the country...

 

[engineerfg]

With regard to this specific passage this is as "pie in the sky" as it comes. While you say you've been to Haiti have you actually had a chance to see any surveying or engineering plans?

I can assure you I have. I saw a survey for a client's property that was at a level one might expect of a survey done 400 years ago it was so bad. In fact I've seen surveys done over two hundred years ago in North Carolina that were better. Is there any professional organizations like the ASCE in the States to ensure good engineering or surveying? I think not.

Therefore to talk about "where possible locals are employed, where possible locals are TRAINED for future development" is just as far from reality as one can get. FYI, all good engineers and other professionals from Hatii move abroad to get experience. If you find a good engineer or whatnot in POP it's because he lived and trained abroad. Why would that be? Simply put because there is so little work involving engineers that none of the locals can get any experience.

Not to worry, when all of this infrastructure gets built someone will still have to maintain it and add more as it becomes necessary. As should be common sense, inevitably locals will be hired in some aspect for the mere fact that they speak creole. I look to see many Haitian professional living in Florida return to such positions. If the Haitian government doesn't completely blow it who knows they might just stay and contribute to a better Hati. This is the best and most realistic scenario that we can hope for. Everything else is wishful thinking.

Again I think this is an accidentally ethnocentric point of view. Yes I've been to Haiti. Yes our engineering is far superior to theirs - even though their engineering did build the citadel but that's another story - Yes they are primitive. But this isn't a conversation about 'now', public policy takes a generation to kick into effect.

If you went to China 35 years ago, you would call that country primitive, backwards, and well..agricultural. Now...well the policy has been one of China first.

The model being deployed in Haiti right now, is actually quite ingenious:

1. push debt to the third world country - using conduits like IMF, World Bank, CIDA in Canada, etc.

2. everybody knows the debt will never be repaid, but it doesn't matter, the government is essentially underwriting private company revenues through an offshore vehicle called Haiti

3. Haitis left holding the debt, generates little or no domestic profit or long lasting human resources skills from the project, and all the benefit is given to people like us

4. We 'feel good' about ourselves...you know, for 'helping' Haiti.


You can argue that 'hey we're not a charity' -- and I totally agree.

I would argue back that -- if it's a free market, then let Haiti deal with us in a free market way, instead of pushing them into just one direction --> ie. the one where we win everything and they lose everything.

 

[Chip]

I know what a rfp is, but I'm sure you don't understand the scope of the work that needs to be done in Haiti. In fact, there might just be one or two companies in Orlando that could possibly handle it. You can't hire a 50 person firm to do stuff like this. I'm sure you can't find even a firm like this in Haiti.

On top of that they don't have the surveying or engineering capability for a project of this scope. It would be like telling some junior in college to redesign the Hoover dam.

I base this on working as a civil engineer for 18 years all over the east coast and at big international firms and small ones as well. I currently have my own consulting firm.

 

[engineerfg]

I know what a rfp is, but I'm sure you don't understand the scope of the work that needs to be done in Haiti. In fact, there might just be one or two companies in Orlando that could possibly handle it. You can't hire a 50 person firm to do stuff like this. I'm sure you can't find even a firm like this in Haiti.

On top of that they don't have the surveying or engineering capability for a project of this scope. It would be like telling some junior in college to redesign the Hoover dam.

I base this on working as a civil engineer for 18 years all over the east coast and at big international firms and small ones as well. I currently have my own consulting firm.

I'm sure you're a great engineer. I don't doubt you do great work. But...back to Haiti.

Let's take your example then shall we? And I will give you my own example --

* There are 2 firms in Orlando that can do the work

* So...there are 2 firms in Houston too? And Paris? And Montreal? And Caracas? And and and... okay so let's make a short list of maybe 100 firms that can do the job?

IF WE LET HAITI ACT LIKE A REAL FREE MARKET:

* Then it would act in the way that states in the US and provinces in Canada act. You know, have an rfp, invite all 100 firms, convince them to reduce prices, negotiate terms, drive value to the shareholders (citizens), demand 'make work for locals' clauses -- which my company has done to enter China, and Thailand, and Malaysia, and even Venezuela... even if it's just to win the deal etc.



BUT HAITI IS NOT ALLOWED TO ACT LIKE A REAL FREE MARKET:

* I know for a FACT that Canadian, French, and American government wonks right now are calling up engineering firms with the pitch -- 'got any old equipment you're not using? even if it's just a rig of some sort, bring it to Haiti ASAP! Haiti has an operating line now from the UN and they are guaranteeing per hour rentals -- even if your machine sits empty and unused, you will get $70/80/90$/hour that it's in the country. Do it quick we can help you as we have some 'reserved spots'.

* What's happening right now is now is we are using the catastrophe as a vehicle to quick quick quick push decisions through cost plus and it's a FEEDING FRENZY for many of the firms that are 'connected' with the right government people.

* It's no different than a Tony Soprano 'no shows contract' type of gig.


Anyways. I'd be happy to share with you more of my experiences in private as I don't feel comfortable going through more publically, but I'll just end it with saying if you can rationalize the 'feeding frenzy' as helping haiti, you're not alone. I think it's good too. After all there's nothing wrong with profiting from disaster, if the job gets done and some people get rich, c'est la vie. But what's difficult to guage is where does 'profiting from disaster' turn into 'price gouging'? And more to the point - since when is it Uncle Sam and Captain Canada's job to help private industry take public money (US tax payers and Canadian tax payers) and convert it into private profit through foreign aid??

 

[Chip]

Speaking of RFP, how do you think the American money is going to be distributed? That's right through the rfp process at USAID which will be handled by the US governments one shop stop at fbo.gov.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=list&tab=list

Honestly you should already know this. With all due respect unless you have some evidence to back up all your conjecture I'm just going to have to assume that it's just that.

 

[pedrochemical]

There never was a legitimate RFP process in Haiti.
To make a contract appear llegitimate there may well be a request for quotes but get real, if you are intending to catch contracts in Haiti then you need to be a little more creative.

 

[Chip]

There never was a legitimate RFP process in Haiti.
To make a contract appear llegitimate there may well be a request for quotes but get real, if you are intending to catch contracts in Haiti then you need to be a little more creative.

What do you expect? After all wasn't it the UN dispensing these contracts?

I imagine that Canadian and/or French companies got all the good engineering contracts? (at least from plans I saw) I know Ing Estrella got some highway construction contracts though.

 

[pedrochemical]

What do you expect? After all wasn't it the UN dispensing these contracts?

I imagine that Canadian and/or French companies got all the good engineering contracts? (at least from plans I saw) I know Ing Estrella got some highway construction contracts though.

Some contracts yes and some no.
Even private contracts are supposed to be awarded on a fair basis - there are rules about this sort of a thing.


Canadian, French, Dominican and Haitian companies seemed to fare well in Haiti pre-quake. Maybe because they were the only people crazy enough to do business in Haiti.

I still get RFP emails from the UN.
At least the UN go through the motions.

But essentially the big bucks are going to end up where you might expect.
All the usual suspects.