What is defined as good Spanish?

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Chip

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The examples you gave of Physics and Engineering are not really compatible as they are facts based ie none will change the laws of motion or the Dynamics of flight they will always be what they are unless they can be proved to be wrong in which case they will get up dated but anything that is correct is a fact for all time.

Skippy, no offense, but in the scientific world we don't have "facts" either. We have theories that are used until something else better comes along. This is something I learned from many math and physics undergraduate and graduate classes on my way to getting an engineering degree. There are many more examples of theories that have changed than those that have not, believe me.

If a man tells you something and you understand him perfectly without any need to correct his grammar then is the language any less effective?

The above statement seems to suggest we get rid of all standardizations and protocols with regard to language. I understand that language is a fluid object, but that is a given as most educated adults are aware of this. However, in todays day and age language is a very important part of the structure of society and laws. Language rules and definitions are increasingly important in todays law prolific and technological society. I have to deal with this all the time and any lawyer will tell you the same thing.

I also believe it can be proved that the magnitude of changes language have had historically is much less now in the modern era due to a number of factors.

Again, I don't believe anyone is disputing your observation of language over the last few centuries, but it appears you are proposing doing away with all language "laws", which would be impossible and impractical to say the least.
 

Skippy1

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Chip,
I have an engineering background too (BSc and MSc in Electrical Engineering) and while you are right theories change what remains constant are the facts Gravity is what it is will never change. Gases expand when heated a given etc. If some theory is wrong it will be corrected eventually but what is right will remain. We will not give Bromide another name or change it from a noun to an adjective.

I dont advocate doing away with anything I just wanted to point out that language is about communication not history. True Lawyers put a tremendous amout of store in definitions and language and it causes no end of problems when the people go and use the words for other meanings in the relentess development of language.
One of the biggest drivers of language is technology Just look at the Spanish IT phrase book and see how much has changed and how many English words are now being adopted where Spanish ones are not effective enough.
I do not propose anything just observe that the language of today will not be the same spoken in 100 years from now. Most of the rules and grammar will be intact but there will be changes that will make significant changes to use of the language.

I fully expect that at some stage many of the worlds languages will no longer be used it is hard to see how Welsh will ever dominate world trade or even be widely used in Wales much beyond this century.
So with more people speaking less languages there will inevitably be a time when there is an almalgamation of perhaps English/Spanish Chinese/Russian and Spanglish or Russanese will go forward to a new era in the world. (Lets not forget English its self is a mixture of at least 5 other languages already) When and if this happens what will be the good Spanish or good English of the day then?
The most widely spoken language is Chinese but for many reasons English is still the language of Commerce. Interesting to see who wins in 500 years time English the most widely understood language or Chinese the the most spoken.

What language do you earn you living in English or Spanish out of interest.

Skippy1
 

Chip

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What language do you earn you living in English or Spanish out of interest.

Skippy1

I earn my living mostly in English, but have Hispanic clients as well that prefer to speak in Spanish.

Also, I see your points, but I believe the time has really passed for the whole scale transformation and evolution of languages due to widespread communication and standardization, laws etc.

Obviously, new words and expressions will be added but sentence structure, conjugations etc will no longer change as they once did.
 

Skippy1

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Let me just throw a spanner in the works......

What if the European Union decide that English will be the predominant language in a greater States of Europe scenario and all the other languages become moribund?

Or what if Russia invades Europe and forces its language on us.
or...
Nuclear war with China and the only safe land place is Australia what language would we speak then?
 

Chip

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Let me just throw a spanner in the works......

What if the European Union decide that English will be the predominant language in a greater States of Europe scenario and all the other languages become moribund?

Or what if Russia invades Europe and forces its language on us.
or...
Nuclear war with China and the only safe land place is Australia what language would we speak then?

and I thought engineers were realists and pragmatists??? :)

Really though, back to language - what do you you propose we do with all the language rules and regulations we have now?
 

Skippy1

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You may laugh but history is full of exactly those issues changing the language the people speak well except the nuclear one ...lol

as for the other bit....Nothing just let them evolve like they have for the last 500 years.

But I know what I wont do is tell a Dominican his Spanish is inferior and that his way of communicating with his friends and family are wrong.

Skippy1
 

lollipop

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I don't know if it is because of the stress and whatever is going on w/their daily lives but some people seem to be quite aggressive and radical when giving their opinions here.

Anyway, back to the topic: Rules are needed in every aspect of our lives including language, they're not insulting or demeaning.
 

Skippy1

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The problem with written language it is easy to confuse light hearted banter with aggression.....you cant see the person laughing or the wry smile as the finger comes off the post button....

Skippy1
 

Chip

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But I know what I wont do is tell a Dominican his Spanish is inferior and that his way of communicating with his friends and family are wrong.

Skippy1

I don't believe anybody here is proposing such, I believe the purpose is to discuss normally accepted standards of Spanish. This is done in other languages too.

Also, you would have to agree it would be laughable for a gringo machucando the Spanish language to correct a native speaker. Even if one did that they would be just ignored and then laughed at later on.
 

Skippy1

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I don't believe anybody here is proposing such, I believe the purpose is to discuss normally accepted standards of Spanish. This is done in other languages too.

Also, you would have to agree it would be laughable for a gringo machucando the Spanish language to correct a native speaker. Even if one did that they would be just ignored and then laughed at later on.

Very true!
Funny how UK and America are both English speaking countries yet there are many diehards in England who regularly spit out their coffee or frosties every time the BBC adopts another Americanism. Prompting reams of correspondence on the demise of the English language. No difference to the Spanish Dominicanism argument.....yet no American would be refused a job in the Uk based on the language problems nor vice versa.

Is American English Inferior to Uk English.......? personally I am not bothered as long as I can still watch the latest Holywood blockbuster or get a cheap flight to Orlando when I want one.

Skippy1
 

lollipop

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One thing is regionalism (we have a dictionary of "Dominicanismos") and another thing is lack of knowledge of a language, specially if it is your mother tongue.
 

Tordok

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I regret the lenght of the post and I must a priori acknowledge that I can only give opinion, since I am not a language scholar, and thus I couldn't genuinely provide professional references or a technical analysis. Therefore it is as a humble user of Spanish that I provide anecdotal perspective on Lesley D's opening post.

I suggest that it is a common-sense collective understanding that 'buen espa?ol' roughly correlates with the language as used by persons who combine a solid fundamental knowledge of basic grammar with a well-developed ability to successfully exchange ideas -in writing or spoken language- anywhere in the spectrum from the nivel vulgar to the nivel culto.

And of course I do not mean erudites of the language, as good Spanish should not require deep poetic, literary or oratory skills. There's IMO yet another level for people like that: "excellent Spanish". A few good writers, some public speakers, actors, radio newscasters, etc do attain that level of superior language skills.

But simple "good Spanish" should be the type that although perhaps above average from standard speakers, it is not as rare or sophisticated as that of those with excellent Spanish. It appears to me that most people with a good education (and good reading habits) typically can -and do- reach the good Spanish level, only very dedicated individuals reach excellent Spanish level.

Our so-called "el buen dominio del idioma" must by default be independent of expected national and educational-level variations. Whoever 'has' good Spanish should navigate those fluctuations and adapt to them in a seamless manner. For examples: If you are a Dominican on plane from SDQ to MIA and next to you is seated a Chilean diplomat and the two of you can have a courteous, effective conversation without awkwardness, then you use good Spanish. If you are a Spanish tourist and your jeepeta gets a flat in Laguna de Nisib?n and you can get a local campesino child to help you without misunderstandings; you are a user of good Spanish. If you have to make a TV appearance for an interview and people from anywhere where Spanish is spoken can understand you, then you use good Spanish. If you read materials other than news clips and technical texts - like novels, poems, essays, etc- then you are very likely in possesion of good Spanish. If the Mexican-born professor in your New England college classroom, you and your Argentine classmate can discuss Ch?vez and Castro beyond monosyllables and empty rhethoric, then your Spanish is likely of the good level. If you write a letter that conveys your thoughts and emotions in a way that the reader can connect the dots, surely good Spanish. The lista can go on and on. So it is IMO about knowing enough about the language to discern when to take verbal shortcuts or when to enhance an adjective or which euphemism to implement or how to detect elegant sarcasm, ect all of these things in response to contextual requirements.

Good Spanish should the one that is "good enough" in as many different scenarios as possible.

saludos,
- Tordok
:pirate::paranoid::ermm:
 

Chirimoya

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Good post, Tordok. Give this man some reputation points!

My initially-not-so-good Spanish, learned by ear through everyday street and family use, had to improve when I started travelling and working in Latin America, because it didn't really get me very far apart from everyday chit chat and practical exchanges, and even then, it was inadequate in some situations.

One of the first things I did was enroll in an upper-intermediate course in Caracas to polish my rough edges and fill the gaps - especially grammar. A few years later I got to the point where I was able to write a report and give a presentation in Spanish, as well as engage in informal e-mail type correspondence and day to day work exchanges. My mother's verdict (her Spanish is perfect) on my first presentation was that "you can tell that the person who wrote it is not a native speaker, but otherwise, it's accurate and clear". (This is why I still don't translate into Spanish.)

These days, when I meet my Madrid cousins, it crosses my mind that I might sound a bit strange to them - is it the equivalent of a Londoner speaking to a Trinidadian? :) But speaking to them, or indeed to the sort of educated Latin Americans mentioned by Tordok I feel I can express myself fluently at a reasonably educated and informed level.

The point about making yourself understood at all levels is also relevant. I've noticed some Dominicans glaze over when confronted with a perfectly clear accent that happens to be from another part of the Spanish-speaking world, like Ecuador. I've also met Spanish people who despite having lived and worked in the DR for years insist on using vosotros all the time which jars and must confuse a lot of less cosmopolitan speakers.

As some posters here have said, it can go too far - I have a Cuban friend who is a novelist and he has a magnificent vocabulary - but I find his writing inaccessible precisely because of that. I suspect that even most educated Spanish speakers would also have to reach for the dictionary several times a page when reading his work. I recently had to translate an article by an art critic - and it was completely unintelligible to the point where I suspected that even she didn't know what she was talking about. It used obscure and pretentious words when a simple alternative existed. As a translator, you have to be faithful to the text, but there is also that small detail of your readers needing to understand what you write.

Some Spanish speakers (and probably other languages too, but I've observed it a lot in Spain and Latin America) confuse pompous, pedantic, flowery and repetitive verbosity [this sentence might well be accused of the same thing] with erudition. You see it in journalism and literature, and in the way some people speak on TV discussion shows.
 
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Skippy1

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The Spanish as spoken in Spain is its self under threat from many angles.

Who will win the battle of the Tu and Usted even vosotros usage, will informality win through? Some 1st person 2nd and 3rd person variations are dying out with some irregular verbs hardly ever conjugated in some tenses......I will If some Non believer wants post examples but I am limited here as I am on my mobile and in the UK and the search function is very limited at the moment.

There are far too many tenses and variations for some Spanish speaking countries so its no suprise some are never used.
Some repetition in tenses...can't remember which one but there are two ways to conjugate the same verb in the same tense...that surely can't stand the test of time to come.
Some things you want to say in Spanish take too many words and it is quicker and easier to use a local common term.

I used a verb conjugator for the verb Hablar and got 29 different words over 9 different conjugations not including Plusqualmperfecto. Some using the verb haber conjugated + the verb you want to use result in a 30+ letter two word combination that means something that can be said with one word of less than 7 letters in English.

English only has two tenses present and Past for a verb ........no brainer if you want to compare which is easier to remember.

Good Spanish! the jury has yet to decide what the real parameters are and which outdated structure to drop and which new ones to adopt.....so its not being completely accurate to claim Good bad or indifferent Spanish yet.

Skippy1
 

montreal

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English only has two tenses present and Past for a verb ........no brainer if you want to compare which is easier to remember.
Skippy1

Skippy please don't post innacurate information, research what you are saying before posting. Some people actually might believe the above comment.

In English there are four tenses in the present, four in the past and four in the future.

Have a nice day.
 

Skippy1

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Sorry but I think you will find only two the rest are created by using other words to form the different conjunctions

I AM .......Present
I WAS .....Past
I WILL BE... Future
I Have BEEN...
I Had BEEN
The last three use a modal verb to form another tense so there is only two tenses for verbs on their own. The word been on its own has no sense.

Compare with Ser or Estar
Perhaps you can show me where I have made an error

Skippy1
 

Chip

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Some Spanish speakers (and probably other languages too, but I've observed it a lot in Spain and Latin America) confuse pompous, pedantic, flowery and repetitive verbosity [this sentence might well be accused of the same thing] with erudition. You see it in journalism and literature, and in the way some people speak on TV discussion shows.

Don't forget news reporters and politicians.
 

montreal

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They are composed BUT tenses nonetheless. The false info is your statement claiming that there are only 2 present tenses in English. There ARE 4.
 

Skippy1

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They are composed BUT tenses nonetheless. The false info is your statement claiming that there are only 2 present tenses in English. There ARE 4.

Ok let me put it this way for each verb there are only two tenses if you want to create another tense you need to use a modal verbs in conjunction.
If you use the method of conjunction for each verb there really is only two tenses.

I will go
I have gone
I shall see
you could try
We may visit

each verb is formed in one of two tenses present or past to form the next. That is my point and if you can think of anything as an example please let me know to prove me wrong........I do not mind being wrong by the way its how I and we all learn. To say anything in English you need only learn the past and present conjugation of the verbs then you compare that with Spanish is really what I am saying.

Skippy1
 

Chirimoya

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Don't forget news reporters and politicians.
Absolutely - they are the worst offenders, precisely who I was thinking of when I wrote: "You see it in journalism... and in the way some people speak on TV discussion shows".

The example of English tenses is a good one - perfect tenses are less common in US English (Brits say "I've eaten"; Americans say "I ate") where linguistic evolution has tended towards simplifying grammar and spelling.

Eliminating "vosotros" could be said to be an Iberian/Latin American parallel, but we mustn't forget that both American and Caribbean English as well as Latin American Spanish have also preserved archaic vocabulary and grammar that has died out in Europe, so it's not a simple question of New World English and Spanish being simpler and more practical than the old fashioned Old World versions.
 
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