where is Columbus?

[Tony C]

Re: great perhaps, but good?

I am still waiting for defenders of Columbus to tackle the much-maligned Spanish Inquisition, so unfairly judged by PC historians who wish to judge the past using modern standards. Columbus was just the advance party for a horrific wave of enslavement, torture and extermination, all in the name of christianising the new world. Anyone care to justify that?

Chiri

Well I am going to say it. I don't care how Un-PC it is!

Fight Nice!!!!!!!! Timex
Name me one Indian who has made any significant contribution to Humanity? All we get from them is ridiculous Herbal Medicines and tacky Casinos!
The History of the World is just a series of events in which one group takes over from another. Do you see me bitching at the Brits for Spain's loss with the Spanish Armada?

 

[Indie]

Montezuma.

-Indie
I love his revenge!

 

[sanchegp]

Lets see:

Discoverer of the New World!
Brought Culture, Education and Medicine!
Started the Largest Empire the world has ever seen!
Single greatest economic find in History!

The Indians let their Dignity go. They lost! Get over it!

Can you name me one individual who accomplished more in the History of the world? A person who's actions have effected more people?



Lets see:

Discoverer of the New World!
"who discovered who?".....Juan Luis Guerra y 4.40

The problem with discovering, Tony C, is that the only voice heard is the one that is left alive....since all Indians were killed, they became the discoverees while Mr. Columbus and his crew became the discoverers....It's all about who you ask...

Brought Culture, Education and Medicine!

On Culture: Thank you Christopher (Columbus, that is!!) for the great Spanish designs you brought over from Spain, they fitted us just perfectly...although they were a bit wet from all the turbulence you experience while trying to deliver them!!

On Education: Thanks.....for teaching me and my brothers that a piece of mirror is more valuable than a pound of gold...I feel so smart!!

On Medicine: Thanks.....for the medicine you brought...unfortunately we could not use it because you can't cure death...!!

Started the Largest Empire the world has ever seen!
I am not sure about all the benefits that this one brought us, other than the fact that the only thing we don't import today are Platanos...not necessary a Dominican delicacy...

Single greatest economic find in History!
I Agree: Mr. Columbus redefined the word "find" and "discovery."...too bad we can't extend the meaning to find other existing treasures around the world!!

The Indians let their Dignity go. They lost! Get over it!
When you reach maturity you'll have an answer to this question without assistance


Can you name me one individual who accomplished more in the History of the world? A person who's actions have effected more people?

Yes, Adolph Hitler

 

[ERICKXSON]

sanchegp

hats off people thank you, but you stole my hitler line lol!

well said couldn't be better

 

[Tony C]

sanchegp

Your response is at best, illinformed and Illogical.

You blame Spain for all the DR's problems. How Silly is that? The DR's problems are caused by one thing and one thing only....Dominicans.

What is the Average life expectancy of an Indian Today? What was it at the time before Columbus's discovery?

As for your Adolf Hitler Comment it just shows your lack of historical Knowledge. Stalin Killed much more people and affected the lives of many more than Hitler ever did.
Of course I realize you use the Hitler Comparison as a way of insulting the Legacy of Columbus. That is typical of the way of the Liberal left. Reagan is Hitler, Bush is Hitler.... ect.
Stop applying your modern values(simplistic as they are) to a different era.

The only people in history that can even compare with Columbus in their effect on humanity would be Buhdda and Mohamed.

 

[ERICKXSON]

lets keep this threat about columbus keep the DR problems away

 

[Drake]

Colon

Firstly Columbus did not discover the New World. It was the Vikings. There remains were found in New England.

What did Columbus bring to the New World?

Small Pox - killed more native Indians than anything else.
Colonialism - established a system imposing thier culture and customs on the then present inhabitants ie The Inquisition
Sugarcane- would eventually lead to the introduction of African slaves.
Livestock-horses, cows, pigs- ate all the local flowers
Modern constructions
Social political law and order or in Spains case corruption.
Another legacy the spanish have left is the tradition of garbage or rubbish. That's why latin America is one big rubbish dump.

There is no denying that the Spaniards came here looking for Gold and spices. When they exhausted the local reserves they either continued on to the other Americas or switched to producing sugarcane introducing more slaves.

So was the discovery of the New World by Columbus such a great step forward? The Indians Enriquillo or Caonabo certainly did think so.

 

[jose?to]

Tony and his contradictions...

In one subject, Tony and his minions use science as one of the benefits brought on by the "discovery", while in another, they dismiss a physicist's explanation that a corked bat may not necessarily add distance. Go figure!

On thing is clear: Tony Dorticos is an elite-wannabe, who is forever engaged in a constant search for topics in which he could regurgitate his hatred of most things 'Dominican'. A walking bumper sticker and human billboard for one-liners, Tony is just an insecure cubanito.

The natives knew who they were; they knew where they lived. So any mention of "discovery" is somebody else's side of the story.

Human sacrifices or not, their culture should've been respected by the so-called civilized discoverers. Ironically, with all the "benefits" and advances brought on by the colonizers, the business of destroying cultures is alive and kicking. Not much progress there. Unless, of course, you ask one of the new breed of colonizers, and he'll tell you that it is done in the name of democracy and liberty. "Oh, I see...and my name is Daniel Ludwig, nice to meet you."

Got oil?

Jose?to
The straw that stirs the drink

 

[Chirimoya]

Re: Re: great perhaps, but good?

The History of the World is just a series of events in which one group takes over from another.

Shall we resist the temptation to cite a certain example of this in recent history which is not so pleasing to you?

Do you see me bitching at the Brits for Spain's loss with the Spanish Armada?

You pulled the wrong string there, Tone. I couldn't give a fying fluck (hee hee) about the escapades of two corrupt colonial powers. Are you familiar with Blackadder II?

Now, what about that esteemed institution, the Spanish Inquisition? If you have read anything about what they got up to in the name of 'civilisation' you will know that it makes the Indians and their gory antics look like a vicarage tea party. And what a great move that was, to expel all the smart people from Spain!

Chiri

PS edited to add - how do you insert two named quotes into one post?

 

[Hillbilly]

Strange twists to this thread

Seems to me that a lot of passions are being stirred up here.

Columbus: Incredible man, sort of like a Warren Buffet or Ted Turner or Bill Gates of his time. Ballsy for sure but he knew the earth was round. And he knew that there was "something" out to the West. All knowledgable mariners knew that. Remember, this is a guy that had already sailed to West Africa and had seen the debris from the Amazon in the ocean, but of course, he didn't know it was the Amazon....

Did he discover? Well he did discover for the western European nations, as far as that goes. They were not 100% positive, and supersitions were rife.

Inquisition: Nasty institution to guarantee religious orthodoxy. HOwever, it never killed Indians, en masse, in North, Central or South America, and remember it did document its doings. And it was not responsible for kicking the Jews and Muslims from Spain, either. That was Queen Isabel's religious fanaticism that did that in 1492.

Vikings? Sure, they were in North America as early as 950 - 1000 A.D. But ?Who knew? And they couldn't make a go of it. Then the Mini-Ice Age of the 1200s came and cut off Greenland and limited harvests in other Northern Climes and the whole "Viking"or Norse society pretty well went into the pits. Columbus, for better or worse brought European "civilization and culture"(for what it was worth) to the Western Hemisphere, and it has flourished.

Greatest? Important, no doubt. Perhaps Kepler or Newton, Pasteur, or Curie or Einstein deserve equal consideration. Magellan was a magnificent figure, flawed but great. Columbus was also flawed, but he did something that most of us would never do: (And someone ?Cris Colon? referred to this) He went into the unknown. Balls he had.

Now, whether the DR government will allow the bones to be examined is highly doubtful. Remember, this is an Article of Dominican National Faith. And a RD$550 million chunk of concrete says that it is true!!

Let's see what unfolds, without getting our passions all hot and bothered about something we are not going to change...

HB

Remember: The Plains Indians had lots of buffalo and beaver. The women did all the hard work. The men spent all day hunting and fishing and all night having sex. Then along came the White man and thought he could improve on that. How phucking stupid can you be?????

 

[AlaninDR]

And to think, this all started with a simple post wondering where the bones of Columbus really are. I've almost lost interest now. Maybe I will now hold a grudge against the Brits for jailing my 14th back grandfather for his religious convictions. Perhaps not though. Afterall, he was released from prison in 1605 and promptly left for the new world as an indentured servant. My grandfather 7 times back was killed by indians in Georgia, the year was 1793. An uncle who I obviously never met was shot down and killed in 1944 by a German ME-109 while on a bombing run over Romania. The US govt denied a service claim by another of my grandfathers for duty during the revolution. The US govt also never paid in full for the death of my previously mentioned uncle. Guess I must hold a grudge against the US govt also. This is too involved for an older person like myself. Let bygones be bygones. The good, the bad and the ugly were just doing what they chose to do at the time. People are people with their good points and faults. All this could have been avoided for me had young Thomas gone to DR in 1605 instead of the "other" new world.
My choice is now clear, i'll have a beer and ponder my navel.
Someday i'll meet up with Columbus, Hitler, Stalin and even Darby Hicks. I'll ask them "what the hell were you thinking?". Then i'll get back to everyone here with the details. Also at that time, I hope to find out where the bones of Columbus really are.

 

[Chirimoya]

Someday i'll meet up with Columbus, Hitler, Stalin and even Darby Hicks.

I hope not, Alan, you don't want to be where they are!

Sorry if you thought that the debate about whether Columbus and his sponsors (Queen Isabela and the Inquisition) were good or bad was a deviation from the OT. I don't think it is possible to look back on historical events and the individuals behind them without making some kind of judgement about them. Otherwise what would history be but a list of dates and dry facts?

Chiri

PS who is Darby Hicks?

 

[AnnaC]

"The road to hell is always paved with good intentions".

Not sure who said that but it makes sense.

 

[AlaninDR]

The bottom line is that history is only dates and dry facts. The only interesting point of history to me, since it can't be changed, is what was the motivating factor behind the various decisions that shaped the present. Had Columbus not been obligated to the Queen, would he have kept Hispaniola for himself? I never was a history buff until 1983 during a trip to England. I was standing outside the wall waiting to go in and view the Crown Jewels. On the wall was the history of that section telling about the destruction of it during wars and the rebuilding. I wondered how many had lost their lives defending it, how many were lost attempting to take it. Who was right and who was wrong doesn't really matter now. I had a real interesting experience with "vibes" (shows i'm an old hippie) on that day. Now, when i'm daydreaming, it's usually about what was going on at this (wherever I am) spot at some time in history. It keeps me closer to the real world and the natural order of things. I like what was said previously, maybe parts of Columbus are in several locations. That satisfies me for now.
I need less stress, more beer and a better understanding of my navel.
For Chiri
Who you ask is Darby Hicks? A mythical person from my childhood that could do anything. Perhaps somewhere in history he really existed.
For Anna and Chiri
I'm sure that Hitler, Stalin and even Hippo had good intentions in their own minds. Since i'm a traveler, I just want to make a short visit to see where eternity is for them.

 

[Arve]

Did Adam and Eve have navels?

Us Norwegians popped by Newfoundland around 1000 AD but
never quite made much of an impact. Those were the days
though, we roamed around Europe and North Africa, plundered
killed the women and raped the monks.

Some say that Irish monks also visited the place even before that. ( Come again? This doesn't look like the Vatican, does it? And that does not look like the pope.. Oh, what the hell, it's time for a pint, let's go back. ) Some = The Irish.

The inquisition. Not nice but maybe not as bad as we think,
judged by the standards of that time (...which I incidently can't
use, for obvious reasons so..so much for that ). As the old
Monty Python line goes: "He was a cruel man, but fair"..and
besides "he knew how to treat a female impersonator".

Great men: Let's not forget about Robbie Fowler, before all the
injuries got the better of him. Or Egil Drillo Olsen.

Colombus, had balls for sure- as has been said, but whoever finds out where his balls really lies will make a lot of enemies.
Spaniards, Dominicans or among both.

Slan go foill.