While Dominicans are poverty-stricken, Government officials live high on the hog

[A.Hidalgo]

Stop comparing the salaries of idiot ignorent cement mixers and maids with the salary of people who run the country!!! Those people can't manage and organize themselves out of a paperbag. Those that do rise to the top and expect to get the cream or they pack up and leave.

sjh I know you're smarter than that...not a nice thing to say.
We all benefit from the services provided by cement mixers. I'm sure the roof over your head is a testament to that. I wonder what a politician's home would be without the services of a maid. A job is a job and if done honestly and productively its neither idiotic or ignorant.:ermm:

 

[shadInToronto]

what makes you think they are all getting caught? i suspect the FBI,media, etc catch 5% of what goes on.

Agree ... one guy stole an election then proceeded to rack up deficits; start a war with 'lies'; sack employees without just cause; lied to the public and encouraged his sidekick to lie; .... et al. He hasn't been caught yet. Not only in the DR is correct .... corruption in the DR pales in comparison to one 1st world nation. :speechles

 

[sjh]

A. Hidalgo : do you actually live here? do you work with these guys? I work with them EVERY day. about half of them are little more than placeholders. Some of them are hard workers but even then can't do more than read write their own name if even that. When i say they are idiots and ignorant, i am not kidding and ANYONE who has tried to work with them knows what i am talking about.

second all these cement mixer guys can be replaced by a readymix truck and a cement pump truck for CHEAPER than the can do it.

You clearly know very little about life here.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

A. Hidalgo : do you actually live here? do you work with these guys? I work with them EVERY day. about half of them are little more than placeholders. Some of them are hard workers but even then can't do more than read write their own name if even that. When i say they are idiots and ignorant, i am not kidding and ANYONE who has tried to work with them knows what i am talking about.

second all these cement mixer guys can be replaced by a readymix truck and a cement pump truck for CHEAPER than the can do it.

You clearly know very little about life here.

Can't understand why in the world you continue to depend on those idiots.

 

[sjh]

hidalgo:

do you live here? if so, what gated community? if not which AI did you visit?

 

[A.Hidalgo]

hidalgo:

do you live here? if so, what gated community? if not which AI did you visit?

Dude I was born there so I think I know a little of what goes on. One thing for sure, even if I were living there now I would never demean workers the way you do, besides what does living there or not have to do with how you treat people. But as the moderators say, back on topic.

Corruption is found all over the world, of course at different levels. Some countries have attained a higher level of transparency than others. According to Transparency International index the Dominican Republic is in 100th place among 163 countries. By corruption it must be stressed that it does not mean that the majority of people of a country are corrupt, on the contrary the majority are not, but that some individuals in power are and these leaders and institutions fail to control or prevent corruption.

Besides Transparency International there is the Dominican FINJUS institution that are working to make the country more transparent for the betterment of the society.

2006 / cpi / surveys_indices / policy_research / home - Transparency International
Fundaci?n Institucionalidad y Justicia

 

[Chip]

Agree ... one guy stole an election then proceeded to rack up deficits; start a war with 'lies'; sack employees without just cause; lied to the public and encouraged his sidekick to lie; .... et al. He hasn't been caught yet. Not only in the DR is correct .... corruption in the DR pales in comparison to one 1st world nation. :speechles

Hey don't knock the canuks, they were at the top of the list. Got to have something nice after all, what with darkness year round and all that snow, brrrrr

 

[NALs]

According to Transparency International index the Dominican Republic is in 100th place among 163 countries. By corruption it must be stressed that it does not mean that the majority of people of a country are corrupt, on the contrary the majority are not, but that some individuals in power are and these leaders and institutions fail to control or prevent corruption.

Don't confuse reality with perception.

You will notice that the Transperacy International index gauges the perception of corruption in various countries, not the actual amount of corruption.

There is no question that perceptions NEVER equals reality.

I suppose they do this by analyzing public perception within each respective country.

Can this be trusted?

Does the general public accurately understand things or is their understanding based on mere guesses, perceptions, and speculation?

Is the general public easily influenced by the media?

Is the media biased towards one particular way of seeing things (eg. a redundant pessimism permeates most stories, socialist tendencies, politically influenced, etc)?

If so, how can this bias distort the public perception of any particular topic away from reality?

We have seen evidence of a biased media which can have an impact on the perception people may have of a place. An example would be the article written for the Los Angeles Times regarding the planting of trees in Santo Domingo, an article that on this site was regarded as wrong and misleading - which it was. Another example would be the articles written concerning the LOFT club incident and it being perceived to be something that is clearly not. Those are examples of media having a potential effect on the perception of a place in the absence of accurate information - something that exist on DR1 due to various reasons, including people who know the DR extremely well. The people without access to accurate information will simply accept those news articles as they read them and their perception of the DR will be based on what they read in those stories.

If the answers to the questions above are of the type that makes it clear that public perceptions can be manipulated through repeated biased media reports and by pure ignorance, then how valuable can an index based on public perception be?

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Geez....Nals shut up please.........."A" you're my heeero!!!!

My mouth has been shut. Ah, the power of computers and the internet. Messages flows from the brain directly to an audience without even opening one's mouth! :cheeky:

-NALs

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Don't confuse reality with perception.

You will notice that the Transperacy International index gauges the perception of corruption in various countries, not the actual amount of corruption.

There is no question that perceptions NEVER equals reality.

I suppose they do this by analyzing public perception within each respective country.

Can this be trusted?

Does the general public accurately understand things or is their understanding based on mere guesses, perceptions, and speculation?

Is the general public easily influenced by the media?

Is the media biased towards one particular way of seeing things (eg. a redundant pessimism permeates most stories, socialist tendencies, politically influenced, etc)?

If so, how can this bias distort the public perception of any particular topic away from reality?

We have seen evidence of a biased media which can have an impact on the perception people may have of a place. An example would be the article written for the Los Angeles Times regarding the planting of trees in Santo Domingo, an article that on this site was regarded as wrong and misleading - which it was. Another example would be the articles written concerning the LOFT club incident and it being perceived to be something that is clearly not. Those are examples of media having a potential effect on the perception of a place in the absence of accurate information - something that exist on DR1 due to various reasons, including people who know the DR extremely well. The people without access to accurate information will simply accept those news articles as they read them and their perception of the DR will be based on what they read in those stories.

If the answers to the questions above are of the type that makes it clear that public perceptions can be manipulated through repeated biased media reports and by pure ignorance, then how valuable can an index based on public perception be?

-NALs

Again you are obfuscating the matter here. I wonder how us humans go about interpreting reality...last time I checked it was through perception. Look up the meaning. Now there are correct and incorrect interpretations of reality, but that we need to perceive first that is fundamental. It seems to me that you are trying to diminish or bastardized the word's meaning to fit your argument. Why is it that I get the impression that you seem to think you have a monopoly on what's accurate. Trying to place Transparency International on the same level as the stories you quoted above is totally of the mark.

If you bothered to look on the page that describes the methodology used by TI you will see that they do not analyze "public perception" by questioning the general public or the man on the street.

Focus group participants include anti-corruption and governance experts drawn from government (including donors, where relevant), the private sector, the professions ( e.g. lawyers, accountants and engineers), media and civil society.

highlighted by me

methodology / nis / policy_research / home - Transparency International

 

[sjh]

hidalgo: So, and I was born in california. I left as a child and i have no memory of it whatsoever. How long has it been since you lived here? Were you 3 years old when you left? Have you ever operated a business here? built a house? do you or have you had a live in maid?

Do you vote here in the elections? Do you know any politicians personally? You ever pay a bribe here? You ever contribute positively to a local DR community? Do you listen to local campaign speeches?

Americans are told from the time they are little that they live in the very bestestest country in the whoooooole world. Perhaps thats true elsewhere too but i havent lived elsewhere. we are told all our leaders are self sacrificing and honest. We are told there are one or two bad apples but we catch them early and send the to prison. The truth is the US is a police state, with power greedy officials overregulating everything and taking money left and right from special interest groups. the last election was a mockery the world over. Perhaps you didnt read the news when the DR was offering to send up some overseers to help out in the last election. At best one in 100 get caught doing something illegal and get 6 month sentences that are either commuted or sent to a country club prison.

Its the same **** thing all over the place. maybe 1 in 20 politicians are in it for the good of the people. The guys/gals are in their field to be a success at what they do. that means getting relected and making money while doing it.

 

[Chip]

hidalgo: So, and I was born in california. I left as a child and i have no memory of it whatsoever. How long has it been since you lived here? Were you 3 years old when you left? Have you ever operated a business here? built a house? do you or have you had a live in maid?

Do you vote here in the elections? Do you know any politicians personally? You ever pay a bribe here? You ever contribute positively to a local DR community? Do you listen to local campaign speeches?

Americans are told from the time they are little that they live in the very bestestest country in the whoooooole world. Perhaps thats true elsewhere too but i havent lived elsewhere. we are told all our leaders are self sacrificing and honest. We are told there are one or two bad apples but we catch them early and send the to prison. The truth is the US is a police state, with power greedy officials overregulating everything and taking money left and right from special interest groups. the last election was a mockery the world over. Perhaps you didnt read the news when the DR was offering to send up some overseers to help out in the last election. At best one in 100 get caught doing something illegal and get 6 month sentences that are either commuted or sent to a country club prison.

Its the same **** thing all over the place. maybe 1 in 20 politicians are in it for the good of the people. The guys/gals are in their field to be a success at what they do. that means getting relected and making money while doing it.

Earth to spacet, your batteries are running low.

Explain how politicians in the DR make more than US congressmen which is many many times more than the local professionals and yet you can't get in touch with them and they aren't interested in what you have to say.

If you take of those kaleidescope goggles, you will be able to see better.

 

[Chip]

Primo, BTW very good article about transparency.

You know what I don't understand is how, even faced with facts, that people still want to diminish DR's corruption and SOMEHOW put the US corruption at the same level?

It's like why in the world is EVERYBODY in the damn world, especially Dominicans trying to get to the US. To get abused by the politicians? To pay politicians a salary 50 TIMES, YES 50 TIMES more than they should be paid like here in the DR(based on other nations salaries). To have poor or non existent services such as ambulances, police protection, sewer, potable water and electricity.

There are SO many people who have no check on reality and when faced with facts continue to spout rubbish. I guess they feel like since there are others who think the same way, well by gosh by golly they must be right.

The bottom line is the corruption in DR is way more severe than in othere European countries or the States and as long as people keep diminishing that, Dominicans and foreigners, we won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Then again, I have the sense these people really aren't concerned by most Dominican's interests, just their own petty ones - such a pity.

 

[Chip]

A further comment about the corruption here in the DR. I am a registered professional engineer in VA and FL and in my almost 15 years of working in many states on the east coast NOT ONCE have I had to deal with "paying off" anybody to get my project's permits. Try that in the DR haha. I have a good Dominican friend who is an Architect in Orlando who left the DR for that very same reason.

The only places that I have ever heard of that there is corruption at the permitting level is Miami and NY. Even then, they say your permit won't be denied if you follow all of the regulations, but that it will take a long time if you don't "know somebody".

Furthermore, for all of the Einsteins that think corruption in the DR is equivalent to the US, try this experiment. Run the next traffic light in front of an AMET and then give him RD1000 when he pulls you over. Next, the next time you are in the States, run a red light in front of a police car and then offer them US50. If you need a good lawyer, just give me a call! hahaha

 

[NALs]

Again you are obfuscating the matter here. I wonder how us humans go about interpreting reality...last time I checked it was through perception. Look up the meaning. Now there are correct and incorrect interpretations of reality, but that we need to perceive first that is fundamental. It seems to me that you are trying to diminish or bastardized the word's meaning to fit your argument. Why is it that I get the impression that you seem to think you have a monopoly on what's accurate. Trying to place Transparency International on the same level as the stories you quoted above is totally of the mark.

If you bothered to look on the page that describes the methodology used by TI you will see that they do not analyze "public perception" by questioning the general public or the man on the street.
highlighted by me


methodology / nis / policy_research / home - Transparency International

Here, read this:

Is it right to rank? (Make sure you read section 2.2).

Make sure you read the part where it states "TI (Transparency International), being concerned of this matter, also states on their website that the most important sources of information about corruption are media, friends and contacts."

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Earth to spacet, your batteries are running low.

Explain how politicians in the DR make more than US congressmen which is many many times more than the local professionals and yet you can't get in touch with them and they aren't interested in what you have to say.

If you take of those kaleidescope goggles, you will be able to see better.

You can't compare apples to oranges.

Lets compare congressmen to congressmen, senators to senators, presidents to presidents.

U.S. congressmen start at the following:

Senate Leadership
Majority Leader - $183,500
Minority Leader - $183,500

House Leadership
Speaker of the House - $212,100
Majority Leader - $183,500
Minority Leader - $183,500

Source

Dominican senators earn the equivalent of US$46,875 (simply take the figures, divide them by 32, and multiply by 12).

Dominican deputies earn the equivalent of US$43,688.

Some additional income received through various other means amounts to roughly 100,000 pesos a month which is the equivalent of an extra US$37,500 a year bringing the average yearly salary of Dominican senators to US$84,375 and Dominican deputies to US$81,188.

Other income is earned through outside sources as is the case with senators who own businesses, but those are not reported in the DR or in the US.

Source

The president of the United States earns US$400,000 (source) .

According to the organization CIDOB (Centro de investigaci?n de relaciones internacionales y desarrollo) based in Barcelona, Spain; these were the salaries of all Latin American presidents in 2003:

- Argentina: US 1.052 mensuales.
- Bolivia: US 3.000 mensuales.
- Brasil: Us 3.300 mensuales.
- Chile: US 4.200 mensuales.
- Colombia: US 3.500 mensuales.
- Costa Rica: US 3.000 mensuales.
- Ecuador: US 6.400 mensuales.
- El Salvador: US 5.000 mensuales.
- Guatemala: US 5.600 mensuales.
- Honduras: US 3.500 mensuales.
- M?xico: US 14.000 mensuales.
- Nicaragua: US 10.700 mensuales.
- Panam? US 7.000 mensuales.
- Paraguay: US 1.650 mensuales.
- Per?: US 8.400 mensuales.
- Rep?blica Dominicana: US 2.600 mensuales.
- Uruguay: US 4.200 mensuales.
- Venezuela: US 1.250 mensuales.

Notice, the Dominican president only earned US$31,200 a year in 2003.

(Source)

That was in 2003, today the actual amount is estimated to be closer to US$40,000.

Of course, all those figures are not counting additional income from outside sources.

-NALs

 

[Chip]

Here are some references about government salaries and "perks too". Christmas bonuses of up to 8 TIMES one's salaries.


http://www.dr1.com/news/2003/dnews102003.shtml

http://www.dr1.com/news/2006/dnews092906.shtml#2

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=21470

Hey Nals, what about Christmas bonuses, hahah?

Also, who in their right mind would think paying a Dominican deputy US80k for the work they do when other professionals make a tenth of that, huh? Like I've posted before the mayor of Orlando makes around US140k a year whereas a civil engineer Pm will make close to US100k a year - a difference of 40%.

A civil engineer here in the DR will be LUCKY to make US20000 a year, more than likely 1/2 of that. Why in the world would you think the no good worthless, unacessible, coffer robbing numnut politicians here are worth a salary that is 6 times more. Hey, are you counting how much they legally rob.

Oh brother, you must have family who are politicians.

 

[Squat]

I tend to agree with Chip...

The whole thing about denying that Dominican politicians are just a bunch of crooks seems like a joke to me.

The spirit of corruption is way higher here in DR that it can ever be in Europe or the US... It's a fact.

I understand Nals doesn't agree and tries hard to give us facts, and it is very interesting to read his posts, but it would also be fair to state both minimum wages and average wages alongside the congressmen, diputado, etc..

I know both rich and poor, both Dominicans, Gringos, Haitians, Europeans. I don't like to play anyone's game. But I am not blind...

Dominicans are corrupt from the poorest to the richest... The "clean" ones are the exception. It runs deep inside the culture.

-What can I say ? I know it is not politically correct... I still love it down here... But I don't see how anyone can deny that...

And yes, government officials are a bunch of thieves. Yes, they take money that would otherwise go to better quality "obras publicas, escuelas, hospitales"... and so on... It's a shame, but it's for real... Nals, you should come down here more often, with eyes wide open...

 

[Funnyyale26]

Dominicans are corrupt from the poorest to the richest... The "clean" ones are the exception. It runs deep inside the culture. -What can I say ? I know it is not politically correct... I still love it down here... But I don't see how anyone can deny that...

Yes, I agree with that. We dominicans are savage animals.

 

[Chip]

Yes, I agree with that. We dominicans are savage animals.

Please save the dramatics. Squat says he still LOVES it down here and the fact is I like it very much too.

The thing that Dominicans have up on the Western world is their friendliness, something that appears to be increasingly rare in Western society. While I miss the organization of the US when I'm here, I also miss the Dominicans friendliness when I'm in the States.

Bottom line is, there is no place on God's green earth that is perfect and we have to take the good with the bad but it is wrong IMO to accept blatant abuse as in the case of corrtption here.

One final note, of the many, many Dominicans that I have met in the US a good majority complain of the corruption in the DR as for one of the reasons they left or would probably not return permanently. Can all of these people be wrong?