Why no outrage?

[Rick Snyder]

I will concede to the possibility that the Islamic influence that the Umayyad dynasty had over Spain so many centuries ago may have had a bearing on their thinking and therefore their concepts of ruling. I will also concede that this concept may have been passed down somewhat to the present day thinking and now used as an excuse as to why a person may think that they are above the laws that have been stipulated by society.

The problem with discussions on the Caliphates is that such discussions then become religious in nature and we all know that religion on DR1 is a ?not here? option. When discussing Caliphates it must be remembered that when there was such a thing there was only one and therefore only one person that was considered above the law and even that thought was addressed a number of times throughout history.

The problem that exists in LA and especially here in the DR is the vast amount of people that consider themselves above the law. Rather then blame this as a religious psychological behavior I think it better to put them blame where it truly lies if that is your purpose of this thread and religion isn?t the culprit but rather in human nature and what one is able to get away with, allowed.

Texas Bill, in his discussion on democracy, hit the nail on the head when he said, ?democtratic rule depends on the checks and balances imposed by a constitution which seperates the individual powers of the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial?. Though he stated this as being Western in nature I would surmise that this is a necessary ingredient for any democracy to function correctly. If the right hand has no idea as to what the left one is doing and has no redress when it finds out then in reality you don?t have a democratic system. It has been my experience that the DR government has some checks and balances in their laws and constitution but not enough of same and it has been my hope that with this new constitutional reform that is going on that more of same will be implemented.

The other and more important problem that the DR faces is their unwanted desire to punish those that do in fact put themselves above the law. They consider themselves above the law not because there isn?t a law but rather because they know they won?t be punished.

This breaking the law by high ranking government officials is not unique to LA or the DR but also happens in places like the US. But when a US official gets caught and convicted he goes to jail and pays a hefty fine unlike here.

Getting back to the OP and after reading all the responses to this thread I have a question for the OP. You will have to excuse me because I?m a little slow on the uptake and have trouble understanding so help me out. Remember I?m a simple American. What outrage were you expecting and toward whom or what specifically?

Rick

 

[cobraboy]

What outrage were you expecting and toward whom or what specifically?

Rick

Word.

What are Dominicans supposed to be outraged about, why, and at whom?

<Another slow, dense, anglo-centric capitalist pig American Gringo here...:bunny: >

 

[Rick Snyder]

I thought I was the only one ........ Sorry

 

[drbill]

Third time through, I've got to say that this has been an interesting and informative thread.

Theocratic Moors and caliphates and emergent Latino hegemony, all here at DR1... .

I'm not prepared to personally opinionate, though.

Really good stuff.

 

[Chip00]

Somewhat uneducated opinion

Being new I have a lot to learn about the state of things down here but I haven't been completely oblivious to things and I'm here to stay so I'm hoping and have been for some time that some type of morphoses will happen here, i.e people will realize if they keep voting in the same type of politicians that nothing will change. This has got to come from the children in my opionion because as far as the adults there are two classes in: one, the apathetic ones who are fed up but find justification with a simple "sin verguenza" and two, those who are on the receiving end of the parrot's crumbs. The problem is with those in group one is that seem to ready to jump into group two if there is a half a chance. It is a cultural problem here that is a never ending cycle of complaining about the current status quo and using that as a reason to have no hope which opens the door to justification of self-serving actions when give the chance. The impetus for the morphoses should be a free press and an interested public. But how do you get enough of an interested public when all people want to do is say "las sin veguenzas" and leave it at that. As I haven't quite reached vago stautus here I don't have as much time as I would like but I would like to be involved/create an education lobby started by furriners like ourselves and the bone would be foreign investment in a society increasingly educated. Any ideas?

Chip

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Being new I have a lot to learn about the state of things down here but I haven't been completely oblivious to things and I'm here to stay so I'm hoping and have been for some time that some type of morphoses will happen here, i.e people will realize if they keep voting in the same type of politicians that nothing will change. This has got to come from the children in my opionion because as far as the adults there are two classes in: one, the apathetic ones who are fed up but find justification with a simple "sin verguenza" and two, those who are on the receiving end of the parrot's crumbs. The problem is with those in group one is that seem to ready to jump into group two if there is a half a chance. It is a cultural problem here that is a never ending cycle of complaining about the current status quo and using that as a reason to have no hope which opens the door to justification of self-serving actions when give the chance. The impetus for the morphoses should be a free press and an interested public. But how do you get enough of an interested public when all people want to do is say "las sin veguenzas" and leave it at that. As I haven't quite reached vago stautus here I don't have as much time as I would like but I would like to be involved/create an education lobby started by furriners like ourselves and the bone would be foreign investment in a society increasingly educated. Any ideas?

Chip

Problem is the children will never get the proper education as long as the adults (politicos) are in control of the budget and what gets taught in the schools. There are some organizations out there trying to enlighten the population, but as you stated some are too busy getting "the parrot's crumbs"

What this country needs is a leader who is progressive, a maverick willing to take chances and think out of the box. Well I can dream.

btw good post.

The organization in the link has received funds from USAID.

Participación Ciudadana_República Dominicana.

 

[tflea]

To respond

To the OP's original question, and aside from the excellent discussion here, I"ll just say...."NO, they don't care on which side of the canyon they fall".

 

[Rick Snyder]

Chip00,

As you are new I will give you a couple of links that I would suggest that you maybe read in your spare time. I will only suggest a couple out of so many that happen to come to my mind due to the responses that were posted to these threads. These two threads were started by me and I think they might help in your efforts to get a handle on things here;

http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/48626-my-idea-better-education-here-dr.html
http://www.dr1.com/forums/dr-debates/52247-corruption-stealing.html

Expect a PM from me in the near future as I wish to discuss your idea of getting involved. As I am a vago I have almost all the time in the world.

Rick

Sorry everyone, back on subject???

 

[Tuan]

Rick: I want neither religion nor faith in my discussion. I won't have it.

A population's world view stems from their cultural heritage. European heritage differs from Iberian in the sense of how rules are made. In the centuries of European Dark Ages council traditions emerged not unlike those used by AmerIndians including the Taino. The Iberian peninsula, however, was under its 800 years of the Caliphate rule. The Koran is both religion and a civil code. It is that exceedingly workable civil code that gave Iberia such a highly sophisticated society while the rest of Europe languished in near savage feudalism.

The hispanic Caliphate history is germane to a discussion of Dominican attitudes toward their democracy. It is P.C. gone wild to ignore the value and historic effect of the Koranic civil code because of its associated faith. It is the same as ignoring the truck hurtling down on you just because you're on the sidewalk. You should and you can ignore the faith part while understanding the civil rules.

Cobraboy: Why should there be outrage? Actually, there was a little. Apparently by a gringo who said on the DomToday comments something like: "where's this guy coming from, Mars?" That gave me pause. I wondered if Villeya would respond in the press. Indeed, it seemed no one would. Just that lonely gringo. The silence became deafening.

We're not on Mars. We're in the world, the Western World, where men are chosen to seek compromise from the many. Bengoa's comment clearly shows he thinks he's been chosen to RULE the many -- and who the heck do these business people think they are, sticking their nosey opinions into what he's doing while he rules? Has he curly-toed shoes too?

Here's what's happening. Councilors get chosen to knit policy from disparate views of the citizenry, but the councilors proceed at their public functions thinking they got chosen to decide for themselves. Conflict ensues, treasure dissipates, progress cripples --- in fact, the story of Latin America because of their Caliphate heritage.

The DR could as well be an Emirate as a Republic for most purposes. But the DR constitution says they are a Republic. It IS an outrage when the governors in a Republic try to intimidate or suppress qualified views from the governed.

 

[Chirimoya]

So, how does that account for differences between attitudes across Latin American countries, or would you say they are all basically the same? Why blame the Islamic mindset and not Catholicism?
There was a thread long ago that analysed this, and attributed a lot to the type of settlers and their motivation. Basically the colonies settled by people in search of quick riches evolved into much more corrupt countries compared to areas settled by migrants with more modest ambitions.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Thank you Chiri that is the point I have been trying to stress without getting into the religious debate. I honestly don't think religion has any thing to do with it.

Religious aspects deleted

Due to the basic thought of survival which progresses to wanting to survive better then Jose next door to wanting everything you can get away with having is where we are at and has nothing to do with religion or its teachings.

Taun I want to thank you for your post #29 because my slow self now knows where you are coming from. I will respond to your post later in the day.

Rick

 

[Rick Snyder]

It looks like that outrage is finally hitting the proverbial fan. Or has been since Friday and I just happened to have been asleep at the wheel, so what's new.

Needless to say everything that is being said is true but as so many of us here know that the hot air will not change the way that politicians operate. The government officials just get upset when they are criticized for their lack of doing the right thing.

My apology to you Taun as you were right on your reasoning and title of this thread. Told you I was slow.

Rick

 

[Rick Snyder]

Just poking around I came up with some articles that explain exactly what the government officials are upset about for those that may not be aware of what is being said. This is just some of the many examples of non-politicians getting involved in politics.

They don?t like it when someone points out that they are crooks and/or lazy.

Edited to add;
Everyone knows why there were deletions and editing done right?
Please don't go back to the religious theme.

 

[Tordok]

You make perfect sense. The issue is not confused.

Bengoa's comment is important because, as an official of the 2nd rank, it demonstrates how ingrained pre-Enlightenment precepts and the Koranic code really is in LA overall. That's because DR ought to be the most enlightened given its dependent size and its geography, it's status as "51st State" (but that didn't help Cuba, did it?). It should have had the old ways somewhat rubbed off by proportionately close ties to the US. Didn't happen.

So don't count on DR staying in the West's camp in the conflict, starting with
Hugo's takeover -- er, Bolivarization -- of LA.

Tuan,
I rarely lose it here, but you have provided too much for me to ignore.

This whole theory is so outrageous that I suggest that you produce some legitimate scholarship on this stuff. If you cannot do that I suggest you check with your nearest hypnotist, who might be able to revert your brainwashed self back into the real world.

Your very attempt to so categorically conclude such a distorted argument is indicative of what your euphemisms can't cover:
1- a serious misreading of historical processes in general, and
2- a very particular and presumptuous eurocentric interpretational bias that is so strong that renders your input absurd.... East versus West as exemplified by Bengoa?....Western Supremacy of values? Do you really think that this is so simple? Do you really think that you are correct? Are you serious? Islamic groupthink in Latin America?

What precisely is it that the US should be rubbing off on Latins? Look at your own enlightened history and explain how Enlightened it was for good ole' Tommy Jefferson to own Black slaves? I'm sure he read the Koran. Explain to Japanese-Americans why they, but not German-Americans where detained with no charges? Very constitutional, just like the taxation without representation of D.C. residents? How very logical and institutional. Consistent. Solid. Freaking Transcendental human achievements that the rest of us subhumans cannot fathom to ever be able to understand. Right?
....why was it that the A-bomb was dropped in Asia and not in Europe? Why is it that taking land from Cherokees and Navajos, or from Mexicans, and from Spaniards in Puerto Rico or the Philipines is OK if its done by the US. Oh, I forgot sometimes the US actually purchases new countries: like Alaska from the Enlightened Russian Tsar, or the French Lousiana from the Enlightened Emperor Napoleon. And makes you think that we are not living under King George? ...the man who as governor executed dozens of human beings, a Christian value I'm sure. ...the man who -in the name of Democracy and Freedom- calls for people to be A-ok with getting arrested without warrants, denied access to Justice, rendered to torture....or is Justice not the kind of Enlightement you hold so dear, isn't it....Is it Enlightened, or more like Blinded by the Light? I get a sense that you and a certain mustachoied Austrian have....let's say a special sense of kinship, a true understanding of the human race, a deeper awarenes of perfection, don't you?

Yours is yet another variant of so-called aryan supremacy bullcrap, intellectualized into the en-vogue "American Exceptionalism" theory, which is just as Enlightened as the "Divine Right of kings" that Europeans held in such high esteem for such a long time. Paranoia-lite. Intellect at the service of bigotry.

If you truly bothered to look beyond your misguided logic, you'd see that History has many examples throughout time and across the many different cultures and civilizations of the globe that can demonstrate cases of both good and bad governments; of bad and worse religions; of almost clean and downright unscrupulous institutions, of good and bad apples in any basket of fruit.

Yours sir, is a very offensive and indecent political illusion created by a very dangerous narrow-mindedness.

- Tordok
aranoid:

?He who learns but does not think, is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger.?
Confucius, non-enlightened dude from some place in the East....:chinese:

 

[macocael]

well Tordok, I am glad you tackled that one. I really dont know where I would have begun, given the idiot logic that is being adopted in most of the posts here. Really folks, where did you learn your rules of rhetoric and logic? didnt you ever learn that generalizations like Eastern Thought and Western Thought are merely heuristic devices intended to facilitate the delineation of basic themes and are in no way meant to serve as the basis for logical analysis and conclusions if no real evidence and concrete details are to be introduced into the mix? You must all have read your history in the eighth grade and never opened another book on the subject! "Dark Ages"? "feudal savagery"? What do you all really know about those centuries, other than these silly clichés? Real analysis of the history of the centuries after the break up of the Roman Empire and the Pax Romana reveal that in fact the period was no darker, no more bereft of government (both ecclesiastic and secular), and no less full of creative and intellectual ferment than the centuries before or since. And then to make logical jumps, without any kind of mediation, between Spain under Islam and The Spanish Empire,as though the ideology and behavior of the people were continuous and uninterrupted, not to mention full of the usual discrepancies, multiplicity and contradictions that all human societies embody. I dont know which logical abuses are worse: the linear cause and effect thinking (ever hear of overdetermination?); the post hoc ergo propter hoc, which is a concomitant to the previous error; The fallacy of composition; the vague generalizations; the red herrings, false conclusions and faulty premises; the lack of adequate evidence or even the simplest fact adduced in defense of even one single proposition; or finally, the glaring ideological assumptions governing your positions, of which none of you seems to be aware.

Kipling was a great author, but even great authors write great rot, and that particular line about East and West is one example of an author's failure of imagination. Unfortunately it is the bane of such authors that their worst lines are often the only ones remembered by those who never bother to read further.

 

[Rick Snyder]

And with the posts from these two intelligent minds, my opinion, we bring this to a close. It is apparent that this thread is why off course and not likely to verge back.

Rick