Get it guys, Spanish speaking countries don't know or do not use the phrase "west indian" ok someone said it translates to "antillano", that word we use. So can someone translate west indian?
- Thread starter Query
- Start date
West Indian?
- Status
Get it guys, Spanish speaking countries don't know or do not use the phrase "west indian" ok someone said it translates to "antillano", that word we use. So can someone translate west indian?
Well said. A great post on Imix:
Who are West Indians?
The term "West Indies" originates from Christopher Columbus? erroneous belief that he had landed in the Indies, then meaning all of south and East Asia. Many years later, after further exploration and more precise cartography, it was evident that Columbus had committed a grave faux pas. It was obviously necessary to differentiate the ?true? Indies from the new one, and they were aptly renamed relative to the then ?known? world, that is, Europe, adding the words East and West for clarity.
The West Indies consists of the islands of The Bahamas and of the Antillean archipelago, commonly referred to as the Antilles. This chain of islands spans the northern, eastern and southeastern borders of the Caribbean Sea, a serene body of water ironically borrowing it?s moniker from a tribe of Indians who proudly, and often times ferociously defended their dominance in the islands. The Greater Antilles, comprising the ?big? islands of the group, bound the sea on the north and are made up mostly of continental rock. The Lesser Antilles are coral and volcanic formations, extending across the eastern border of the sea, to come within 11 miles off the South American continent. The 700 islands that make up the Bahamas lie outside the confines of the Caribbean Sea, North of Cuba, in the Atlantic Ocean. Nevertheless, they are a part of the geographical grouping commonly referred to as the West Indies.
From a geopolitical perspective, the West Indies encompasses all the people and cultures intertwined within the aforementioned geographical location. The indigenous inhabitants of the region were the Ciboney, Arawak and Carib Indians respectively, collectively called Amerindians. It has been speculated that they arrived in the islands from the South American continent, migrating up the chain of islands in search of better hunting grounds, and to flee warring tribes. The re-discovery of the islands by the Europeans, brought about the decimation of its original inhabitants, but more importantly, some may argue, the introduction of a compendium of races, ethnic groups, languages and cultures, which eventually forged the cultural identity of the West Indies.
The case of identity is constantly brought to the fore when making the argument against natives of the Spanish speaking islands. It is alleged that they cannot be West Indian because they do not identify themselves as such. They associate more with the Latinos. It is rather problematic for them to identify as West Indian, since the term, as it is used in English does not exist in the Spanish lexicon. The term ?Antillano?, which loosely translates to West Indian is nonetheless employed. In my own experience, I?ve met persons from the Dominican Republic and Cuba, to whom I posed the question of identity. Their initial response, and understandably so, they essentially said that they were simply Dominicana/o or Cubana. When I asked whether they considered themselves West Indian and offered a short definition of the term, they generally acknowledged that they fell within the geopolitical grouping.
The debate continues with the argument that culture plays a fundamental role in deciding who a West Indian is. All the islands forming part of what was called the British West Indies share a similar culture and tradition. There is a common bond between these islands; that is, they share the same colonizer. However, some of these same islands were colonized at different times by both France and England, yet still consider themselves West Indian. The Spanish islands share a similar history. Although the colonizer was different the history is parallel and therefore the cultures, though not exactly the same are comparable. In fact, the Spanish islands were colonized long before the English speaking countries. It was the Spanish who first came to the Caribbean, and mistakenly called them the Indies.
Visit any island in the Caribbean and listen to the sounds, look at the people, take in the flavors of the sumptuous dishes. There are so many similarities that it is easily discernible that British West Indians are the same people as their Spanish or French speaking counterparts. Owing to the history of the region, the islands all have traditional attire. They all have unique features but if you look at them, they are all variations of the same thing. The same goes for the traditional dances and music. The cuisine is another important aspect that must be considered. The same foods are consumed in all the islands and are prepared in pretty much the same way across the board. They may go by different names but that is also the case within the British West Indies, yet there is no ambiguity whether they are West Indians.
Carnival is an integral part of West Indian culture. Out of the entire year, the two days of carnival unites everyone, celebrating together in careless abandon. The Spanish natives do the very same thing. Many of the costumes used, parades and rituals performed are based on the same premise.
As with many cultures around the globe the Caribbean has its folklore. The islands all have variations of the same stories. In Dominica, a grandmother may tell her grandkids about ?la diablesse? while the abuela in Cuba recount the stories of ?el Diablo?. Even the moral values parents instill in their children are somewhat similar amongst all West Indians, including Cubans, Peurto-Ricans and Dominicanos.
Lack of knowledge of those around us plays a huge role in this discussion. Largely due to the common language and closer historical ties, British West Indians have grouped together while the Spanish West Indians do the same. The British West Indians, having a larger group had more influence and has somewhat seized the term and made it what they deem it should be. Influence however, does not determine truth. Both parties still have a lot to learn about each other.
Regardless of what one may call himself, doesn?t take away from what one really is. For instance, if I refuse to use my father?s name it doesn?t mean I am no longer his child. So too, if a Puerto-Rican doesn?t call himself West Indian, it doesn?t mean he automatically loses that identity. All oppositions brought forward were largely based on unconfirmed report and plain ignorance. Spanish speaking natives in the Caribbean are West Indians is every sense of the word. They have all the prerequisites, be they geography, culture, cuisine or history. The evidence is there. It is simply a matter of educating ourselves and finding a firmer grasp on our rich, diverse yet unique history. Instead of creating a divide in a region which could possibly be the last safe have on earth, it is important to unite and celebrate each other for whom we all are; true West Indians.
I used "west indian" as an example by how an Argentinean would feel by being called a Latino. Many would not appreciate the connotation. I believe you mistook my post. Earlier, I pointed out that my father growing up in Curacao did not consider himself "west indian", he later found out about the cultural reference when he learned english.
Who cares?
Me too, I just like to say that my background is Antiguan or just Caribbean...West Indian makes it all way too confusing for anyone to truly understand! If we dismissed the name altogether though, I wonder how the Bahamas and Bermuda would feel - they're not in the Caribbean Sea at all...
Me too, I just like to say that my background is Antiguan or just Caribbean...West Indian makes it all way too confusing for anyone to truly understand! If we dismissed the name altogether though, I wonder how the Bahamas and Bermuda would feel - they're not in the Caribbean Sea at all...
I agree..sort of... but it is only hard to understand when people want to break it down into their perception. I would never stop saying West Indian because it confuses people. You want to be specific, then I will tell you my island(s). If you listen to Caribbean songs played today (and back when),they include all the islands one way or another.
This is why I said, majority of the people who are from the Caribbean, really don't raise these questions or care. It is usually people who aren't and try to tell you what you are...
Many islands , one vibe. Too busy keeping it irie to give a d***
Princessa~
It's gone round in circles, this discussion.
"West Indies" is a term still used and understood in the English-speaking world.
The English-speaking Caribbean's cricket team is called the West Indies, the University of the West Indies has already been mentioned, letters are still addressed to (e.g.) St Lucia, WI.
However, it does sound a little dated. You don't hear people in the UK describing themselves as West Indian so much as Afro-Caribbean, or Caribbean. Although technically it refers to the entire geographical region, it is also used to specifically refer (politically, linguistically and culturally) to the English-speaking/former British colonies of the region.
The equivalent term "Indias" (Indies) exists in Spanish, but is completely archaic. People know that it means the greater Caribbean or the Antilles, although it originally meant all the Spanish new world colonies - as in the full name of the Colombian city Cartagena de Indias (as opposed to Cartagena in Murcia, Spain), Fray Bartolom? de las Casas' historical account about the treatment of the Indians in the new world Brev?sima relaci?n de la destrucci?n de las Indias, or the historical archive about the discovery and conquest of the new world, El Archivo General de Indias in Seville, all of which refer to the Caribbean region and beyond. But as for modern-day use, you'll never hear the region being called "Indias" or its people described in this way.
With reference to people from the real Indian subcontinent who live in the Caribbean, in my experience they are described as "East Indians" living in the West Indies - just to make the distinction.
"West Indies" is a term still used and understood in the English-speaking world.
The English-speaking Caribbean's cricket team is called the West Indies, the University of the West Indies has already been mentioned, letters are still addressed to (e.g.) St Lucia, WI.
However, it does sound a little dated. You don't hear people in the UK describing themselves as West Indian so much as Afro-Caribbean, or Caribbean. Although technically it refers to the entire geographical region, it is also used to specifically refer (politically, linguistically and culturally) to the English-speaking/former British colonies of the region.
The equivalent term "Indias" (Indies) exists in Spanish, but is completely archaic. People know that it means the greater Caribbean or the Antilles, although it originally meant all the Spanish new world colonies - as in the full name of the Colombian city Cartagena de Indias (as opposed to Cartagena in Murcia, Spain), Fray Bartolom? de las Casas' historical account about the treatment of the Indians in the new world Brev?sima relaci?n de la destrucci?n de las Indias, or the historical archive about the discovery and conquest of the new world, El Archivo General de Indias in Seville, all of which refer to the Caribbean region and beyond. But as for modern-day use, you'll never hear the region being called "Indias" or its people described in this way.
With reference to people from the real Indian subcontinent who live in the Caribbean, in my experience they are described as "East Indians" living in the West Indies - just to make the distinction.
There we go, a concise conclusion of what the term West Indies means in English and what it does not.
Thanks Chiri for the input.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, for those of you claiming (well, it's really only one DR1er on this thread) that Haiti is not a Francophone nation, because most of its people don't speak French is nonesense.
MOST francophone nations and states are in the third world and typical of mostly non-Latin American third world states (Haiti and a few others being very much the exception), there is a tremendous gulf in the language spoken by the western oriented elites vs. the masses. This is particularly true in the francophone nations that form what used to the French Africa in the northwestern part of that continent.
Haiti is a francophone nation, always has been and by virtue of cultural inertia it will most likely continue to be for many years to come.
The fact that the majority of the people speak Kreyol vs. the French spoken by the elites is typical of underdeveloped third world states. None the less, the Kreyol spoken by the majority is heavily influenced by the French language and the cultural aspect of Haiti are a mixture that includes heavy French influences as well among others.
I will not further elaborate on this.
-NALs
Chirimoya thank you for stopping ( I hope)this going in circles dance. I was getting really vertiginoso. The way I see it when someone asks me where I'm from or born, guess what I say, the Dominican Republic. I don't say I was born in the Caribbean, West Indies, East Indies or any other geographical place. Its really simple.
I have to disagree with you here. So if you speak French, you think you'll be able to go to Ounaminthe, let's say,and start talking with the average Haitian there on the streets?? me don't think so. He is going to have great difficulty grasping you.
Afrikaans is closer to Dutch than Kreyol is closer to French, much closer. Yet in South Africa, they don't say " Dutch-speaking country", they say Afrikaans. Kreyol is a mutant form of French, alright, but nevertheless, it ain't French! thus, Haiti is not Francophone. The 5% elite don't count. They cannot make Haiti " Francophone".
Now Africa, I don't know, is a difference case, you can't compare. In countries like Senegal, Mali, Niger, Cameroon, etc. French is used as lingua franca to talk to other neighbors, but all of them have their native languages, ex: Wolof, Fulani, Hausa, Mandinka, etc". You rarely see Africans around speaking French within their own tribe. I asked a friend from Niger if " everybody in Niger speaks and understand French?" He replied " yes".
I take his word, but I'm not sure. I think only the guys that had the opportunity to go to school like him and thus, " privileged" are the ones that can speak and understand French. So If you can talk with 95% of the people in Niger with French, then I would say it is a Francophone country. Otherwise, it isn't.
Asopao
In wikipedia Haiti is one of the countries considered to be francophone country. Haiti belongs to La Francophonie, an organization of French speaking countries. Read link, an eye opener.
Francophone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In wikipedia Haiti is one of the countries considered to be francophone country. Haiti belongs to La Francophonie, an organization of French speaking countries. Read link, an eye opener.
Francophone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited:
Bravo Chiri. Tordok 100% with you on this. We are basically dealing with an anachronistic geographical -sometimes ethnic -term.
For example, while doing some hobby research on the databases of the Ellis Island Project, I discovered some interesting entries. Their database, available online, covers a period from the late 1800s up to the early 1920's with actual photographs of passenger lists on ships arriving from overseas.
In logs from as late as 1924 the US immigration authorities of the time and the shipping companies kept detailed data about individuals, not unlike today. Things like age, place of birth, nationality, occupation, address in the US, reaon for visit, random medical observations (scars, limps, lice, boils, etc), and r-a-c-e were listed. On ship logs originating in the DR,
Dominicans were invariably described as coming from either Santo Domingo or San Domingo, W.I. (for West Indies) and for race: West Indian. This included people that I know were 'euro-dominicans' of that period. Distinct from others on board like those identified as Italians, Arabs, British, etc.
So West Indian is an outdated geographical misnomer, certainly when mistakenly used in reference to the Latin American nations of the Antilles. It is also true that in the Anglophone world it is still used to denote a cultural community within the Greater Caribbean.
It is an Anglocentric term with which Cubans, Puerto Rican, and Dominicans do not relate even if in other latitudes - on the basis of a geographical nomenclature of bygone eras- we can sometimes still be incorrectly lumped together with anglo-based cultures of other Caribbean Basin peoples as having a 'West Indian' identity.
- Tordok
A Francophone is a person who is able to speak the French language. Geopolitically, it is used to refer to a person that speaks French as a first language or who self-identifies with this language group. As an adjective, it means French-speaking, whether referring to individuals, groups or places.
In a narrower sense the notion of "Francophone" reaches beyond the dictionary definition of "French language speaker". The term specifically refers to people whose cultural background is primarily associated with French language, regardless of ethnic and geographical differences. The Francophone culture beyond Europe is the legacy of the French colonial empire.
Francophone countries include France, Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, Haiti and the French West Indies, and several countries in Africa that are former French colonies or Belgian colonies. These countries are members of the La Francophonie organization"
:cheeky: So Wikipedia to you is the " omniscient word of God"?
For Pete's sake, Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia, anyone can edit it, put their own agenda.
Some Jean-blaha blah blah , elite " creme-de la creme" in Haiti, who is one running the show in Haiti, decides that Haiti be defined as " Francophone", because, "all the signs in Haiti are in French,and we have French names ! :laugh: :laugh:
Oh Please ! If they don't speak French ( that is , about 90% of the population) , then it is NOT FRANCOPHONE ! PERIOD
What Wikipedia says is garbage.
Chirimoya,
Excellent post. I agree that is indeed an archaic term in spanish & french caribbean and still used by the english caribbean. But we tend to forget that most of these people are now living in the USA thus speak english "hopefully" and our realising for the first time that majority are from the same region and are influenced by one another.
We all know or should know that West Indies is the biggest misnomer in the World. And I would hope that people from that region don't believe that they have any rapport with India. Unfortunately, I read a post above where someone proved me wrong.
I must confess if someone asked me where I was from I would never say "west indian" rather the country where I am from. But if someone would ask if I am "west indian" I would say "yes" and specify exactly that I am from Haiti.
Asopao,
Haiti is indeed a francophone country 95% of the words in kreyol are archaic french words slight pronounced differently. A french speaking person can go to haiti and in 3 months will be able to speak kreyol. Haitian literature is well known in the francophone community and books are quickly sold out. One doesn't have to be from the elite group to speak french. We can compare it to dominican spanish to some extent. The more educated and cultured the person is the more intelligible his/her spanish will be. Although generally speaking all dominicans speak spanish. Kreyol has actually added a little spice into the french language. Haiti will forever be a francophone country.
Excellent post. I agree that is indeed an archaic term in spanish & french caribbean and still used by the english caribbean. But we tend to forget that most of these people are now living in the USA thus speak english "hopefully" and our realising for the first time that majority are from the same region and are influenced by one another.
We all know or should know that West Indies is the biggest misnomer in the World. And I would hope that people from that region don't believe that they have any rapport with India. Unfortunately, I read a post above where someone proved me wrong.
I must confess if someone asked me where I was from I would never say "west indian" rather the country where I am from. But if someone would ask if I am "west indian" I would say "yes" and specify exactly that I am from Haiti. Asopao,
Haiti is indeed a francophone country 95% of the words in kreyol are archaic french words slight pronounced differently. A french speaking person can go to haiti and in 3 months will be able to speak kreyol. Haitian literature is well known in the francophone community and books are quickly sold out. One doesn't have to be from the elite group to speak french. We can compare it to dominican spanish to some extent. The more educated and cultured the person is the more intelligible his/her spanish will be. Although generally speaking all dominicans speak spanish. Kreyol has actually added a little spice into the french language. Haiti will forever be a francophone country.
- Status