1852 newspaper "Petition to Recognize Hayti"

[GWOZOZO]

Duvalier rose to power with his negritude movement and reignited much of the anti-white and to an extent anti-mulatto feelings. Needless to say Haiti has not recovered yet from the economic damage Duvalier and his son subjected Haiti.

That is not Negritude.

Negritude deals with rediscovering the negro african contribution and stating pride in that ancestry and culture.

It is international response to Euro-centrism. Cesaire of Matinik and Senghor of Senegal are it's best known authors.

Both blacks and mulattos have followed that movement.


You are thinking of "Noirism" which is strictly a Haitian thing based on blackness to the exclusion of those of mixed race.

It was born out of resentment and envy toward the mulattos.

Of course many of the so called "noiristes" married light skinned women.

Noirism was short lived and went out of favor decades ago, as the people saw the hypocrisy of these so called "noirist intellectuals".

 

[NALs]

I would imagine that those "fresh off the boat", or within a generation or so, from Africa ... just might be "centered" on Africa.

And as I look at the history, I am reminded of other places ... yes, including Liberia. We know what ultimately happened there. We might even imagine what could eventually happen in Haiti ... if .........

But there just might be some reason why the minority gained and continued to hold power over the majority. Your thoughts on that, NALs? (After all, I am just a novice student of history, trying to learn and understand.)

The Haitians were severely mistreated by the French, so much of their way of being, particularly of certain groups that from time to time got control of the country, was simply a reaction to that. Lets not forget that the preliminary findings that the fears of ancestors can be engraved in people's genes and be passed down to future generation probably applies to many Haitians too. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many Haitians that instinctively have a general dislike towards whites and anything that can be considered as representative of that, even before they learn about Haiti's history. The French were often criticized even by many of their own Frenchmen that visited Saint Domingue or Haiti because of the brutality they subjected the blacks that was more often the rule than the exception over there. But this doesn't excuses that whenever groups with those deeply embedded feelings rose to power they put in place policies that unjustly targeted even the mulattoes.

As for why despite that Haiti has been for the longest time the most anti-white country in this hemisphere and at times it was one of, if not the most, anti-mulatto countries as well and the mulatto/white minority still managed to stay on top could probably be due to the unbroken lineage from people that in the past founded many of those businesses and passed to the next generations the know how. Most of Haiti's population, descendants not just of slaves but of some of the most mistreated slave populations anywhere, were never founders of businesses, they were never taught about business or anything. They were mostly illiterate people that were plucked out of their rural based communities in Africa and all they truly knew was how to be small subsistence farmers. That's what their ancestors knew and people can't teach their offsprings things they don't know.

There was also an exclusivity imposed by the bilingualism that has always characterized Haiti and for whatever reasons was never tackled by those in power, regardless if the people in power were pro-black or pro-mulatto or pro-all Haitians. Most Haitians never learned to speak French, a consequence of the large percentage of African born slaves at the time of the revolution (and that was a consequence of the brutality of the French slave system, by comparison in the Spanish part not only were the slaves a minority not just of the general population but also a minority of the population of color, but most were criollos and not bozales, in other words had been born for many generations on the island while about half of the slaves in Haiti were born in Africa and most of the other half were not more than 2 generations born on the island; the average slave of the French died prematurely from exploitation while the average slave in the Spanish part died of old age and many even lived long enough to see their freedom because it was accepted as a religious piety to free the slaves as part of the death will of the owner).

In Haiti up until the 1980's the only official language was French. Anyone that didn't understood French had 0 possibilities of doing anything the legal way in a country where at least 95% of the population only knew Haitian kreyol.

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

Both Fran?ois and Jean-Claude Duvalier married mulatas of the elite class.

 

[NALs]

Both Fran?ois and Jean-Claude Duvalier married mulatas of the elite class.

Yes, but women are often seen as 'property-like' regarding the men not just in Haiti, but the world over.

Aristide was another Haitian leader that made it very clear and very public his dislikeness towards mulattoes while his wife was (or is) a very light skinned mulatto herself.

Jean-Claude's ex was so light and with such fine features that in many Latin American countries she would be seen and accepted as white. The woman that accompanied him during his return to Haiti was a white French.

Men have a habit of keep what is often considered to be their rivals property, whether they are things or people of second-class citizenship of sorts.

At the time of the massacres ordered by Dessalines, the white wives/girlfriends of certain Haitian leaders were spared from the bloodshed. Many of these men were very anti-white themselves.

I think it was Richie, who was a leader in Dessalines army and later became president of Haiti, who said that to show his loyalty to Dessalines he killed his wife and kids with his own hands for the sole reason that they were mulatto. Search for that quote.

 

[Major448]

What was I thinking! I am neither Haitian nor Dominican, And yet, I had thought about learning a bit about Haitian history. I will admit that I was curious. And so, I posted a few documents and links. But now, I have discovered that if I really want to know anything about Haitian history, all I need to do is ask a Dominican, such as yourself. And I will find out all that I need to know. So thanks! I will now discontinue my effort. No need for me to post any more links.

Yes, I have seen the history books about those bloodthirsty savages in Haiti. How dare they murder those kind, innocent, slaveholders. They should have used the legal system, like any civilized people would do. And they used machetes and farm implements to kill with, so I hear. All just because a few French mistreated some Haitians. And it's not like they had any discipline, or even any real military exposure. They were just a savage mob out of control. Killing all the Whites and Mulattoes. And doing who knows what to White women, against their will. I know because I read that somewhere. And you have confirmed it.

And those Haitians are Black. Their victims were White and Mulatto. So that's all I need to know. Surely that also means they were racist. When those people committed that level of violence, and the victim was White or Mulatto, why it just has to be racism. After all, no "civilized" group of people have ever massacred innocent people, while claiming it to be some military action ... or political purge ... or acquisition of resources. Otherwise, it would have been in the history books.

Now, I am aware that those Haitians may claim that they were doing what they did out of their own self interest ... whatever they think that was. But the world knows differently. And they tend to call it like they see it. Right?

By the way, I have been defending the DR decision on deporting undocumented Haitians. I really do believe it is based on law, and that it is not racially motivated. I believe that it is in the self interest of the DR to do that. I have even discussed this with some who were unaware. But, we both know how SOME people think ... when it comes to OTHERS ... and what THEY think the real motivations are.

And so ... how's that working out for you ---> http://dr1.com/forums/government/151321-deportations-haitians-can-i-get-facts-please.html

 

[GWOZOZO]

Both Fran?ois and Jean-Claude Duvalier married mulatas of the elite class.

Not quite,

Francois married a lower middle class lighter tint black girl raised in an orphanage. Not someone from the elite and not a mulato.

 

[GWOZOZO]

what was i thinking! I am neither haitian nor dominican, and yet, i had thought about learning a bit about haitian history. I will admit that i was curious. And so, i posted a few documents and links. But now, i have discovered that if i really want to know anything about haitian history, all i need to do is ask a dominican, such as yourself. And i will find out all that i need to know. So thanks! I will now discontinue my effort. No need for me to post any more links.

lol lol lol

 

[GWOZOZO]

The Haitians were severely mistreated by the French, so much of their way of being, particularly of certain groups that from time to time got control of the country, was simply a reaction to that. Lets not forget that the preliminary findings that the fears of ancestors can be engraved in people's genes and be passed down to future generation probably applies to many Haitians too. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many Haitians that instinctively have a general dislike towards whites and anything that can be considered as representative of that, even before they learn about Haiti's history.

That is pure nonsense.

The Haitian people are the least anti-white blacks in the region.

Ask any white person who has visited Haiti and the other negro islands.

The reason is simple, the whites left a long time ago and haitians of several generations have no memory of white racism.

The struggle within Haitian society has been between the children of the slaves and those of the free people of colour ...black and mulatto. Whites have not been part of the equation.

There is no hatred or even ill felings towards whites in Haitian society and culture.

 

[GWOZOZO]

Yes, but women are often seen as 'property-like' regarding the men not just in Haiti, but the world over.

Aristide was another Haitian leader that made it very clear and very public his dislikeness towards mulattoes while his wife was (or is) a very light skinned mulatto herself.

Jean-Claude's ex was so light and with such fine features that in many Latin American countries she would be seen and accepted as white. The woman that accompanied him during his return to Haiti was a white French.

Men have a habit of keep what is often considered to be their rivals property, whether they are things or people of second-class citizenship of sorts.

At the time of the massacres ordered by Dessalines, the white wives/girlfriends of certain Haitian leaders were spared from the bloodshed. Many of these men were very anti-white themselves.

I think it was Richie, who was a leader in Dessalines army and later became president of Haiti, who said that to show his loyalty to Dessalines he killed his wife and kids with his own hands for the sole reason that they were mulatto. Search for that quote.

Wrong again,

Aristide never stated dislike for mulattos.

Aristide's fight was class based not race.

Several of his supporters were mulattos and Arabs...and some like Palestinian-Haitian Izmery lost his life for supporting Aristide.

Nowhere in the civilized world would Jean-Claude's wife be seen as white. She is actually a descendant of Black king Henry Kristoff.

The white woman who returned with him is the grand-daughter of a former Haitian president.

And No, Richie did not kill his wife and kids.


Your dominican racial views are preventing you from understanding the nuances of Haiti.

 

[NALs]

This guy from Jeremie was 11 years old when Duvalier's massacre against the mulattoes of Jeremie took place. I read this many years ago, but it came to my mind a few minutes ago and gave it shot at seeing if I could find it again.

#2447: Duvalier - Jeremie Massacres 1964 (fwd)

 

[GWOZOZO]

Here is a great website with a list and some pictures of the victims of Duvalier (pere)

Click on Gallery and see pictures of families of all hues and social classes who paid for acts done against papa doc or for associations with people suspected of not liking papa doc.

Fordi9.com

 

[GWOZOZO]

The Estiverne family and the 1969 terror at Grand-Bois.

Duvalier terror on a poor black peasent town.

Jail house

 

[GWOZOZO]

The overthrow attempt that led Papa Doc to massacre the extended families of those involved.

This is the list of those from Jeremie, more were killed in other towns.

And that is how Papa Doc kept control, your entire family and circle will pay for your indiscretions against him.


"The J?r?mie Vespers refer to a massacre that took place in August, September and October 1964 in the Haitian town of J?r?mie. It took place after a group of 13 young Haitians calling themselves "Jeune Haiti" landed on August 6, 1964 at Petite-Rivi?re-de-Dame-Marie with the intention of overthrowing the regime of Fran?ois 'Papa Doc' Duvalier.

The 13 were: Max Armand, his brother Jacques Armand, G?rald Marie Brierre, Miko Chandler, Louis Drouin, Charles Forbin, Jean Gerdes, R?ginald Jourdan, Yvon Laraque, Marcel Numa, Roland Rigaud, Gusley Villedrouin and Jacques Wadestrand.


The massacre was called the "vespers" because many of the families killed by the regime are remembered as the families who took many aforementioned "vesper" picnic excursions.

Several of the group were from the town of J?r?mie. During two months they fought in the hills, the regime ordered the arrest and murder of Jeune Haiti's family members. 27 people were murdered, ranging in age from 85-year-old Mrs Chenier Villedrouin to 2-year-old R?gine Sansaricq.

The murdered were:
Louis Drouin Sr., father of Louis Drouin Jr.
Louise Degraff, his wife
Guy Drouin, brother of Louis Drouin Jr.
Alice Drouin, sister of Louis Drouin Jr.
G?rard Guilbaud, Alice's husband
Mrs. Chenier Villedrouin (n?e Corinne Sansaricq) (85 years old), mother of Guy and Victor Villedrouin
Victor Villedrouin
Roseline Drouin, Guy Villedrouin's wife and sister of Louis Drouin Jr.
Fernande Villedrouin, sister of Guy and Victor
Guy Villedrouin, brother of Victor Villedrouin
Adeline Chassagne, Victor Villedrouin's wife, and the aunt of Canadian indie rock band Arcade Fire's R?gine Chassagne
Lisa Villedrouin(18 years old), their daughter
Frantz Villedrouin (16 years old) their son
Pierre Sansaricq
Louise Laforest, Pierre's wife
Jean-Claude Sansaricq, their son
Graziela Sansaricq, Jean-Claude's wife
Lily Sansaricq, sister of Pierre Sansaricq
Fred Sansaricq, son of Pierre
Hubert Sansaricq, son of Pierre
Reynold Sansaricq, son of Pierre
Marie-Catherine Sansaricq (10 years old) daughter of Pierre
Edith Laforest, Louise Laforest's sister
Jean-Pierre Sansaricq (6 years old), son of Jean-Claude and Graziela
St?phane Sansaricq (4 years old), son of Jean-Claude and Graziela
R?gine Sansaricq (2 years old), daughter of Jean-Claude and Graziela
Pierre-Richard Sansaricq
Alphonze Bazile, Son of Pierre and Vesta Bazile

The members of "Jeune Haiti" were killed one by one in combat with Haiti's army, until the last two survivors, Louis Drouin and Marcel Numa, out of ammunition, were captured alive, brought back to Port-au-Prince and shot in public against the cemetery wall on November 12, 1964."

 

[Major448]

This guy from Jeremie was 11 years old when Duvalier's massacre against the mulattoes of Jeremie took place. I read this many years ago, but it came to my mind a few minutes ago and gave it shot at seeing if I could find it again.

#2447: Duvalier - Jeremie Massacres 1964 (fwd)

The first comment after that post that you provided included a link to "The Library of Congress" ... a country study on Haiti.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/httoc.html

I took a look at the link for Fran?ois Duvalier, 1957-71. (Since it is a "temporary" link that results from a searvh, I cannot post it. But one can just click on the link and see the results. Just be patient ... the search results will take a while.)

Interesting reading ..... thanks for the resource. I will go back and look at some of the other links later.

 

[Major448]

The overthrow attempt that led Papa Doc to massacre the extended families of those involved.

This is the list of those from Jeremie, more were killed in other towns.

And that is how Papa Doc kept control, your entire family and circle will pay for your indiscretions against him.

Thank you for the resources and the insights. Very valuable stuff for my understanding of the history.

I looked at some of the Library of Congress write-ups, and it's interesting how they frequently made reference to "the planters", instead of "the slave-holders". But they did point out that a very large percentage of the Mulatto population owned slaves during that time. Enough said on that for now.

We know that prior to, and during, the revolt a large number of "planters" and their slaves traveled to places like New Orleans, and Charleston SC in the US. (Yes, the same Charleston where we had the recent church massacre.) I could also post a link to video about the group who went to New Orleans, and how they lived. And how the Mulattoes eventually became "Black" due to the US one-drop rule -- with the resulting loss of a very privileged lifestyle. All of that occurred right AFTER the US took control of Louisiana. And it's just one of the reasons why we avoided some potential power struggles between Black and Mulatto in the US. After all, ALL of us were Black in America ... with all that that meant.

From Haiti to New Orleans ....
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb8Ig5IMhZU
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haDM83oa9Dk
Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5SEPl-XtY4
Part 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvJL5XIe5w4

In addition, and concerning Charleston ... Charleston (where the majority of slaves entered the US) almost became the site of the largest slave revolt in US history. And note that there were definite links to Haiti, as well as a link to the church where the recent shooting occurred.

(ref: Denmark Vesey --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark_Vesey

They were well aware of what was taking place in Haiti. And the plan was to escape to Haiti, after the revolt.

It seems obvious that it was important to those in power to demonize Haiti --- "psychological manipulation" was in full force.

 

[GWOZOZO]

For foreigners trying to make sense of Haiti's black/mulatto issue, here is a little "tour de tete"

Michelle Bennet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michèle_Bennett the mulatto wife of Jean Claude Duvalier (the son of noirist Francois Duvalier) is a descendant of black king Henry Kristof.

Michelle's two children from a previous marriage have a grandfather https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alix_Pasquet who was killed trying to overthrow the grandfather of her two children with jean-claude.



It has been a constant battle among the holders of power since the country's birth.

The free people of colour (mullato and black and those in between)who actually started the revolution have kept the reign of power while the ex-slaves (overwhelmingly black)continued working the land on their small plots.

The goal was always to gain entry into that first group either thru education, marriage, or government.


The mulattos, and later european and arab immigrants controlled the economy while the blacks contolled the social services and other government institutions. Foreign businesses (all white) favoured dealing with the light to white economic elites over a blak business owner.

The children of the ex-slaves however were kept out of any power sharing. Every time that majority attempts to put someone in power, that first group sometimes backed by foreign powers intervene.

If all the mulattos and arabs of the elite class were to flee tomorrow, that division will still remain. Their black associates will simply takeover and continue.


There is a saying in Haiti "A poor mulatto is a black and a rich black is a mulatto". In a sense the racial terms have taken a secondary economic meaning.


The term MILAT (mulatto) is now used to describe anyone who is not mostly black (light mulattos, arabs, whites)

while the term NWA (black) is used to describe anyone mostly black ( pure blacks, slightly admixtured blacks and dark mullatos)

Haiti is a unique country with a unique history. Trying to understand it thru foreign understandings of race will always lead to the wrong conclusions.

 

[GWOZOZO]

Thank you for the resources and the insights. Very valuable stuff for my understanding of the history.

I looked at some of the Library of Congress write-ups, and it's interesting how they frequently made reference to "the planters", instead of "the slave-holders". But they did point out that a very large percentage of the Mulatto population owned slaves during that time. Enough said on that for now.

We know that prior to, and during, the revolt a large number of "planters" and their slaves traveled to places like New Orleans, and Charleston SC in the US. (Yes, the same Charleston where we had the recent church massacre.) I could also post a link to video about the group who went to New Orleans, and how they lived. And how the Mulattoes eventually became "Black" due to the US one-drop rule -- with the resulting loss of a very privileged lifestyle.

It is reported that the "free people of colour" mostly mulatto but also some black owned 25% to 30% of the plantations and slaves in St-Domingue. making them the richest "black/mixed" population on the planet at the time.


A statement that is often made in error is that the planters bought their SLAVES with them when they left for Louisiana and other parts.

There were no slaves at the time of the revolution, France had already abolished slavery in St-Domingue. The revolution was fought because of Napoleon's attempt at reinstituting slavery.

These were free blacks who moved to other shores.

The Louisiana refugees were approximately a third white, a third mulatto and a third black ( no slaves).

This famous american from my hometwon of les cayes left at the start of the full war. His father sent for him and his part black sister in 1791. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Audubon

 

[Major448]

It is reported that the "free people of colour" mostly mulatto but also some black owned 25% to 30% of the plantations and slaves in St-Domingue. making them the richest "black/mixed" population on the planet at the time.


A statement that is often made in error is that the planters bought their SLAVES with them when they left for Louisiana and other parts.

There were no slaves at the time of the revolution, France had already abolished slavery in St-Domingue. The revolution was fought because of Napoleon's attempt at reinstituting slavery.

These were free blacks who moved to other shores.

The Louisiana refugees were approximately a third white, a third mulatto and a third black ( no slaves).

This famous american from my hometwon of les cayes left at the start of the full war. His father sent for him and his part black sister in 1791. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_James_Audubon

Yes ... I knew about Audubon. The other information corrects my knowledge about the history. Thanks again!

I am sure that, by now, some are in shock over all the direct historic links between Haiti and the US. And we are just getting started ....

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

There were plantation owners who came from Haiti to Louisiana with slaves, especially household servants. Of course, it was illegal in Haiti where they left from, but Haiti was in a state of anarchy and laws were not enforced. Perhaps these people did not know they were not slaves, but slavery was legal in the US. Some came through Cuba first. Even more Plantation owners came to Louisiana, bought slaves there and started new plantations.

The US benefited more from the Haitian struggle for independence than the Haitians did. They convinced Napoleon that his empire was not going to be on the American Continent, and to sell Louisiana to the Americans, who probably would have taken it anyway, if not the British.
Americans should be more grateful to Haiti for this.

 

[GWOZOZO]

There were plantation owners who came from Haiti to Louisiana with slaves, especially household servants. Of course, it was illegal in Haiti where they left from, but Haiti was in a state of anarchy and laws were not enforced. Perhaps these people did not know they were not slaves, but slavery was legal in the US. Some came through Cuba first. Even more Plantation owners came to Louisiana, bought slaves there and started new plantations.

The US benefited more from the Haitian struggle for independence than the Haitians did. They convinced Napoleon that his empire was not going to be on the American Continent, and to sell Louisiana to the Americans, who probably would have taken it anyway, if not the British.
Americans should be more grateful to Haiti for this.

Of course some slave owners left with slaves at the start of the conflict as they have always done.

1794: France abolishes slavery in all its possessions. (However, slavery is restored by Napoleon in 1802 except in revolutionary St-Domingue).


After that date, some may have come with servants but not slaves.

The bulk of the St-Domingue refugees arrived in Louisiana at the very end of the 1700s and early 1800s

It is an error that is often repeated, where some keep referring to the newly freed blacks as slaves.