at least four deaths in plane accident in punta cana

[MikeFisher]

yes, Vanp for van P. would make easy sense.

Mike

 

[KateP]

Could have been dual-citizen also travelling on a Belgian passport...?

 

[donP]

Nearby Beach

I've read in some of the spanish local papers that the pilot reported an engine fire.

It was also said, that according to air traffic communication, one engine had caught fire in flight and thus an emergency landing would be attempted.
A previous pilot allegedly had warned that the aircraft was not in a good airworthy condition...

ATC would have to know more about it....Of couse, on a single engine aircraft 'one engine' is one too many on fire... :cross-eye
I wonder, whether the nearby sea (only about 2000 m) would have been a choice to ditch the plane (especially if there was fire onboard), even with a fixed gear.
Again, that would have very much depended on the altitude the mishap occured.

There are just too many unknown facts...

donP

 

[playacaribe2]

ATC would have to know more about it....Of couse, on a single engine aircraft 'one engine' is one too many on fire... :cross-eye
I wonder, whether the nearby sea (only about 2000 m) would have been a choice to ditch the plane (especially if there was fire onboard), even with a fixed gear.
Again, that would have very much depended on the altitude the mishap occured.

There are just too many unknown facts...

donP

You answered your own thought.

I would not put a fixed gear plane in the water.....almost certain to flip after the gear catches a wave or the water.

While it is speculation on my part...the pilot tried to land it in the best possible place...the golf course.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[KateP]

One of the versions I heard on the radio supposedly came from a plane that was flying nearby. The pilot said all of a sudden smoke started coming out of one of the motors and from then on the plane practically nosedived. No time to do much more then try to level out and hopefully find an open space. Airport said they didn't receive a distress call from the pilot so it looks like everything happened very very quickly.

 

[Contango]

The question remains, if the pilot hadn't hit the tree, would they have landed safely? This pilot would have been a hero..

 

[wrecksum]

It appears that the pilot was distracted during taxy out and did not put the fuel selector in the correct position.This allowed him to take off and fly until the small auxiliary tank ran dry and the engine stopped.Why he didn't reselect another tank and re-start or opt to do an emergency landing in the shallow water just a small way away we shall never know.

Probably scared for his job and tried to save the plane and not just his a$$ ---which is not what we are taught but the pressure is there.

 

[playacaribe2]

It appears that the pilot was distracted during taxy out and did not put the fuel selector in the correct position.This allowed him to take off and fly until the small auxiliary tank ran dry and the engine stopped.Why he didn't reselect another tank and re-start or opt to do an emergency landing in the shallow water just a small way away we shall never know.

Probably scared for his job and tried to save the plane and not just his a$$ ---which is not what we are taught but the pressure is there.

That is certainly a possibility, but the reports, however accurate, were that someone at PC reported seeing the engine on fire.

If the engine stalled because of no fuel, I think he had sufficient time to switch tanks and re-start....and as you suggest,. that is pilot 101 when an engine stops. A back of the envelope calculation would indicate he probably was at least at 1,500-2,000 feet, and while that does not give him a lot of time to react, it does give him time to attempt to re-start....even with a full compliment of passengers.

I however disagree with choosing water over a golf course in an emergency if you have a choice....with a fixed gear low wing aircraft such as this....but that decision always rests with the pilot-in-command.....and might be a different choice in a high wing Cessna.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[Curacaoleno]

Somewhat akin to Harrison Ford in L.A. a few months back...fortunately for him, the trees are few and far between in L.A. Anytime you attempt a landing on a golf course, you run the risk of running into obstacles and terrain changes that could flip your craft.

He was lucky where Jim Groce was not.. His plane actually hit the one pecan tree that was around..

 

[beeza]

I would choose water for an engine out emergency any day. Flying a single engine aircraft you are always looking for emergency landing sites and this country has some very hazardous terrain. Mountains, jungle, very few suitable paved roads wide enough without posts and cables. Luckily we are on an island, so my first choice of landing site would be a beach and I would probably elect to put her in the water just off the shore line. Put the flaps full down and keep flying her close to the water surface holding the nose up until she finally stalls into the water. In our C172 we would probably be doing less than 40 knots, so even if we do flip over, at that speed, the chances of injury would be minimal.

 

[dv8]

the engine of the plane will be sent to USA for analysis: Z 101

 

[wrecksum]

That is certainly a possibility, but the reports, however accurate, were that someone at PC reported seeing the engine on fire.

If the engine stalled because of no fuel, I think he had sufficient time to switch tanks and re-start....and as you suggest,. that is pilot 101 when an engine stops. A back of the envelope calculation would indicate he probably was at least at 1,500-2,000 feet, and while that does not give him a lot of time to react, it does give him time to attempt to re-start....even with a full compliment of passengers.

I however disagree with choosing water over a golf course in an emergency if you have a choice....with a fixed gear low wing aircraft such as this....but that decision always rests with the pilot-in-command.....and might be a different choice in a high wing Cessna.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

OK.
Go for it.

The Bavaro visual departure, which I flew the same day as the accident but earlier, calls for a left turn out to the coastline to 12 NM not above 2000'. following the coastline visually. This would allow many possibilities for an engine out emergency along the coast. Statistics show that ditchings are survivable in most cases and there are not many mango trees in the shallows of Punta Cana. Low wing or high wing planes have an almostzero record of tipping over during ditching and the progressive entry into water absorbs the shock.
So, you take the golf course over lots of populated hotels and tons of concrete full of tourists to find an acre of green in a golf course.. Fine.
I'm off for a swim and the insurance can pick up the wet bits and I walk (or swim a bit) with my pax, to the shore.

I fly almost daily and flying does not forgive omission or complacency or my stupidity...

And I never forget that....

 

[playacaribe2]

OK.
Go for it.

The Bavaro visual departure, which I flew the same day as the accident but earlier, calls for a left turn out to the coastline to 12 NM not above 2000'. following the coastline visually. This would allow many possibilities for an engine out emergency along the coast. Statistics show that ditchings are survivable in most cases and there are not many mango trees in the shallows of Punta Cana. Low wing or high wing planes have an almostzero record of tipping over during ditching and the progressive entry into water absorbs the shock.
So, you take the golf course over lots of populated hotels and tons of concrete full of tourists to find an acre of green in a golf course.. Fine.
I'm off for a swim and the insurance can pick up the wet bits and I walk (or swim a bit) with my pax, to the shore.

I fly almost daily and flying does not forgive omission or complacency or my stupidity...

And I never forget that....

At this point we are both speculating and neither of us will likely know the conditions the pilot faced.

As I said, given the option, which the pilot may or may not have had, I will take the golf course every time over water. Even at stall speed, a fixed gear, low wing aircraft hitting the water at gear level is likely to trip and flip the aircraft. And if that happens the airframe may be compromised.....and if that happens...good luck opening the door....unless you unlatched prior to crashing....because you are not opening a window in this model and merrily swimming away.....likely upside down, unable to open the door or escape out a window. This is not a high wing Cessna with a window that opens out.

I don't know what type of aircraft you fly almost daily, but I also fly and have over 3,000 hours in the Piper family from Arrow, Archer, Cherokee six up to my current Saratoga.

And I don't discount your theory of how you might handle the situation, but based on my experience with this type of aircraft, I just disagree.

Fair enough.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[redserge]

We will agree to disagree then.

An overloaded (weight) plane can put undo stress on both the air frame and power plant. This stress could have started a series of events involving the power plant failure that led to the crash.

Second an overloaded plane (weight) with a dead stick will descend faster than a lighter one. While variations in weight do not affect the glide angle, the heavier one ends up on the ground faster....leaving less reaction time for the pilot.

Crashes of aircraft with under 9 passengers are usually not just one event wonders. They generally involve a chain of events that both can and often do include mechanical error coupled with pilot error.

I have a unique interest in this particular crash because it is a plane (not this particular one) that I have flown many times and is the forerunner to the Saratoga I currently fly. They are extremely capable aircraft....when properly maintained AND properly flown.

Lets hope IDAC does a better job of determining causation than the other agencies did at releasing the victims names/nationalities.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

I want to thank you for your input. You are obviously a subject matter expert and well versed in the world of aviation. It gives us all a better perspective when trying to understand what might have, or could have gone wrong.

Thanks

 

[hansvanputten]

Hello to all of you,

My name is Hans van Putten. My cousin (Anouk van Putten) was on this plane.

We as a family, we dont know what happend and there is a lag of information.

The only thing we know is what we see on the internet.

So my question is: is there more information or is there not?
A forum member said that he had pictures. even horrible. We would like to have all pictures if this is possible.

Sorry for my bad english.

Thanks and waiting for a reply.

Hans van Putten

 

[playacaribe2]

Hello to all of you,

My name is Hans van Putten. My cousin (Anouk van Putten) was on this plane.

We as a family, we dont know what happend and there is a lag of information.

The only thing we know is what we see on the internet.

So my question is: is there more information or is there not?
A forum member said that he had pictures. even horrible. We would like to have all pictures if this is possible.

Sorry for my bad english.

Thanks and waiting for a reply.

Hans van Putten

Hans:

Condolences to you and the family.

If you go to post#42, there are a number of pictures in the link..taken by a poster who lives there. Try this:

http://postimg.org/gallery/2gj7rajwu/

Information is sketchy and not always accurate in the DR. Be patient and perhaps further info will be posted on the board as reports come out.

Again, my condolences.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

 

[dv8]

my condolences as well.

this thread is pretty much up to date. you can check info (and pictures) in various links provided from dominican press. as playa said, not much is yet known and i would not expect a solid info on the cases of the crash for some time. the engine of the plane is supposed to be sent to the USA, to the manufacturer for testing and analysis.

 

[MikeFisher]

my condolences to you and your family, Hans.
aside of the first hours, when some bordmembers been on the scene/one lives there where the plane crashed, we willnot get any further info than what is posted in the press, which should be available for you with your Embassy as well after such occurance with citizens of your country involved.
I am very sorry for your family's loss, but i don't think that we will be able to bring up anything further than what will be posted in the press, and as DV8 stated, it may take some time before anything new comes up, as the research on the engines etc takes time and is done in the USA, so a final result from them will most likely just a short small note in the Press down here on the Island.

Mike

 

[wrecksum]

At this point we are both speculating and neither of us will likely know the conditions the pilot faced.

As I said, given the option, which the pilot may or may not have had, I will take the golf course every time over water. Even at stall speed, a fixed gear, low wing aircraft hitting the water at gear level is likely to trip and flip the aircraft. And if that happens the airframe may be compromised.....and if that happens...good luck opening the door....unless you unlatched prior to crashing....because you are not opening a window in this model and merrily swimming away.....likely upside down, unable to open the door or escape out a window. This is not a high wing Cessna with a window that opens out.

I don't know what type of aircraft you fly almost daily, but I also fly and have over 3,000 hours in the Piper family from Arrow, Archer, Cherokee six up to my current Saratoga.

And I don't discount your theory of how you might handle the situation, but based on my experience with this type of aircraft, I just disagree.

Fair enough.


Respectfully,
Playacaribe2

AOPA statistics ,crash analyses and insurance reports do not bear out the tipping theory, either high or low wing.Strangely float planes are more vulnerable,because of the high CG I guess.
I've flown quite a few of the Piper models and found them to be nice handling and reasonable to fly (other than the horrible Tomahawk!} but nicely landing the Twin Com was always a challenge.Didn't try the Cherokee 6.

The info on the probable cause I got was from the pilot's friend who also flies a Cherokee 6 but for a different company.

 

[donP]

Wetting the Tail

My flying life is over.
But I'd go near the water line, stick all the way back, getting the tail wet first...
Not good?

donP