Luis, I think most people here appreciate your info but the way you come off is a bit arrogant, regardless of how good your intentions are. Anyways, Criss Colon is a Vietnam veteran, who put his life at risk for his country (USA). With me being in the USAF, I really appreciate the effort that people like CC put foward so we can live a decent lifestyle nowadays. There's other war veterans on the site too who risked their lives. Let's keep it civilized in here, gentlemen. It is a interesting debate.
- Thread starter Tony C
- Start date
Balance of power.
Luis,
Lighten up dude!
I asked about the Venezuealan AF bececause I have heard some stories from various sources. I deferred to you because you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject.
I am also aware of the the Ven. Navy's Capability but Criss makes a Valid point. Nobody has called you a coward but the Combat abilities of the Venezuealan armed forces have to be questioned until they see action.
In the last 20 years only 3 Latin-American Countries Airforces have seen any meaningful action.
Peru and Ecuador with dubious results.
Argentina with mixed much sucess but nobody who reviewed their performance during the Falklands conflict can question their Bravery. The Argentininean Airforce and naval Air Arm were the victims of poor leadership(Military and Political) and superior technology. I have talked to Royal Navy Pilots who have said that the Pilots from Argentina were the Bravest they ever saw.
I do know what RED FLAG is. I am quite aware that they invite many countries with large Air Forces but I also know they invite countries with small AF's to participate as well. Most of these smaller Airforces are invited for Political Reasons.
Even a Airman will admit that many decisions made by the US arm Forces are made more for Political reasons than military.
Yes I know that even the "Ruskies" as you call them have participated in RED FLAG.
By the Way I use to live in the DR and even had the oppourtunity to be flown in a FAD A-37 back in the 80's!
Lighten up dude!
I asked about the Venezuealan AF bececause I have heard some stories from various sources. I deferred to you because you seem quite knowledgeable on the subject.
I am also aware of the the Ven. Navy's Capability but Criss makes a Valid point. Nobody has called you a coward but the Combat abilities of the Venezuealan armed forces have to be questioned until they see action.
In the last 20 years only 3 Latin-American Countries Airforces have seen any meaningful action.
Peru and Ecuador with dubious results.
Argentina with mixed much sucess but nobody who reviewed their performance during the Falklands conflict can question their Bravery. The Argentininean Airforce and naval Air Arm were the victims of poor leadership(Military and Political) and superior technology. I have talked to Royal Navy Pilots who have said that the Pilots from Argentina were the Bravest they ever saw.
I do know what RED FLAG is. I am quite aware that they invite many countries with large Air Forces but I also know they invite countries with small AF's to participate as well. Most of these smaller Airforces are invited for Political Reasons.
Even a Airman will admit that many decisions made by the US arm Forces are made more for Political reasons than military.
Yes I know that even the "Ruskies" as you call them have participated in RED FLAG.
By the Way I use to live in the DR and even had the oppourtunity to be flown in a FAD A-37 back in the 80's!
Balance of Power
It's a sad day when some people take umbrage at generalized statements that aren't directed at them personally! I've seen a lot of this "jumping to conclusions" on this site and probably have been guilty of doing so myself a time or two. I think we all need to take a good long look at what is being said and why before we fly off the handle and become ultra defensive.
Pride and Vanity are the twin buggers of misunderstanding and later remorse over commentary, however innocently transmitted.
So, Luis, take a line from Kiplings "IF" and settle down.
Texas Bill
It's a sad day when some people take umbrage at generalized statements that aren't directed at them personally! I've seen a lot of this "jumping to conclusions" on this site and probably have been guilty of doing so myself a time or two. I think we all need to take a good long look at what is being said and why before we fly off the handle and become ultra defensive.
Pride and Vanity are the twin buggers of misunderstanding and later remorse over commentary, however innocently transmitted.
So, Luis, take a line from Kiplings "IF" and settle down.
Texas Bill
joel pacheco said:
Might be possible. In 1977 Fidel sent Migs to intimidate the Dominican Republic. They came from Santiago, Cuba and made fly by's thru SDQ and POP!! Travel time was about 50 min. and they had enough fuel to make low passes at the airport, the palacio nacional and some other army posts and return to Cuba.
Our Mustang P51's didnt even bother to take off!!
Fidel's Migs were not as modern as the new versions of the fighter.
There is a cool story about it in the Dominican army site.
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Ehmm... I may of course be mistaken, but..
I don't really think "balance of power" theories are that
useful right now. There's the USA and then there's not much
else. That is particularly true for that region methinks, so such a
purchase wouldn't make that much of a difference. A somewhat
simplistic analysis maybe, but it'll do for now.
The role of the Dominican armed forces would, in my humble and
fairly uninformed opinion, not really stretch much beyond
providing priviledges to fortunate ones.. Civilians could probably
do the the same jobs just as well/poorly.
Luis Puesan. I just want to say I quite like your informative
posts.
Offensensivity. Always been a mystery to me. Colon makes fair
points about most things, and though others might not find the
way they are presented as entertaining as I do, I don't see the
use in getting stressed up about it.
As for stories about wars, I tend to trust only those who've been
there, or authors like Tolstoj, but they have usually been
there too.
Personally I am a coward, and one of the few things I'm not
afraid of is admitting it.
Being lazy and slow I'd probably be
better off hiding, but if the ruskies every came I'd be the first to
make a run for it. The army didn't want me, and I didn't want
them.
Being on balancing theories, a sissy might just balance out
all that macho stuff. Now if I can be excused, I'll go and look up
"take umbrage at"..
I don't really think "balance of power" theories are that
useful right now. There's the USA and then there's not much
else. That is particularly true for that region methinks, so such a
purchase wouldn't make that much of a difference. A somewhat
simplistic analysis maybe, but it'll do for now.
The role of the Dominican armed forces would, in my humble and
fairly uninformed opinion, not really stretch much beyond
providing priviledges to fortunate ones.. Civilians could probably
do the the same jobs just as well/poorly.
Luis Puesan. I just want to say I quite like your informative
posts.
Offensensivity. Always been a mystery to me. Colon makes fair
points about most things, and though others might not find the
way they are presented as entertaining as I do, I don't see the
use in getting stressed up about it.
As for stories about wars, I tend to trust only those who've been
there, or authors like Tolstoj, but they have usually been
there too.
Personally I am a coward, and one of the few things I'm not
afraid of is admitting it.
Being lazy and slow I'd probably be better off hiding, but if the ruskies every came I'd be the first to
make a run for it. The army didn't want me, and I didn't want
them.
Being on balancing theories, a sissy might just balance out
all that macho stuff. Now if I can be excused, I'll go and look up
"take umbrage at"..
A Venezuelan MIG29 can easily reach the DR from Venezuela, and should be able to return to base as well. The range is on the order of 900 miles without aerial refueling, or additional wing fuel tanks. FYI.
Tom (aka XR)
Waiting for the expert, Pasha's, opinion.
Tom (aka XR)
Waiting for the expert, Pasha's, opinion.
Tom, you devil....
At the risk of repeating myself, the West German AF inherited a squadron of 29's when the Wall came tumbling down and was ordered to integrate them into the Force.....whereupon the Chief of Air Staff went running to the MoD to say that his pilots were too valuable to die in a second-rate fighter. Whereupon the MoD told him that he [COStaff] had caused a couple of gazillion Marks to go down the tube by previously claiming that the M29 was THE hottest shiT thing on the street.....and that the 29's would be integrated.
I last saw the 29 perform at the Dubai Defense Show a couple of years ago....doing the vaunted "COBRA Maneuver' .....but the question was then and I suppose still now: Other than an aerobatic stunt that might suck a money out of Arab pockets, what the hell good is it? Basically it looked like an elongated hammerhead stall whilst maintaining same altitude. Sure death at missile range.... stopped and blowing a helluva lot of hot air. Mighta been great in WWII or Korea, but engagements these days are over horizon or near so. Guns are just to make the jocks feel like real men....mano a mano stuff.
Anyhow, does anyone really thing that Venezuela is going to attack anyone out there? Seriously? And just what is it that he might attack? And would Venezuelan pilots actually obey and fly the missions, or would they just stay in barracks? Sounds like whoever's putting this story out is a master tempest-in-teacup brewer.
Best, P
Are you being sarcastic? But now that you mention it, I do think that Russian equipment is improving but it's still basically Crapcrapcrap.XanaduRanch said:
At the risk of repeating myself, the West German AF inherited a squadron of 29's when the Wall came tumbling down and was ordered to integrate them into the Force.....whereupon the Chief of Air Staff went running to the MoD to say that his pilots were too valuable to die in a second-rate fighter. Whereupon the MoD told him that he [COStaff] had caused a couple of gazillion Marks to go down the tube by previously claiming that the M29 was THE hottest shiT thing on the street.....and that the 29's would be integrated.
I last saw the 29 perform at the Dubai Defense Show a couple of years ago....doing the vaunted "COBRA Maneuver' .....but the question was then and I suppose still now: Other than an aerobatic stunt that might suck a money out of Arab pockets, what the hell good is it? Basically it looked like an elongated hammerhead stall whilst maintaining same altitude. Sure death at missile range.... stopped and blowing a helluva lot of hot air. Mighta been great in WWII or Korea, but engagements these days are over horizon or near so. Guns are just to make the jocks feel like real men....mano a mano stuff.
Anyhow, does anyone really thing that Venezuela is going to attack anyone out there? Seriously? And just what is it that he might attack? And would Venezuelan pilots actually obey and fly the missions, or would they just stay in barracks? Sounds like whoever's putting this story out is a master tempest-in-teacup brewer.
Best, P
This thread in my opinion belongs with the rest of those really valuable threads in the airline info forum.
Chris said:This thread in my opinion belongs with the rest of those really valuable threads in the airline info forum.
Chris,
Thanks for that astute geo-political insight.
Back to the subject.
Latin America has been blessed or cursed(depends on your point of view) with a lack of major military confrontations between nations for quite some time. That is not to say it won't happen in the future.
Argentina/Chile, Ecuador/Peru, Colombia/Venezuela are all powder kegs that can ignite at any time.
During the Cold War the US was quite adept at keepin a balance of power in Latin America but those times are changing. Russia is having a Fire Sale with their MIG's and now I hear that China has been having talks with some SA countries.
The DR being a small and poor country will soon have to deal with this. Imagine if Chavez did have those MIGs! With all his bluster about the DR harboring Coup plotters would it be beyond him to escalte this to a possible military confrontation? IF Fidel had no problem buzzing the DR would Chavez? How about a couple of Venezuelan frigates appearing over the Horizon off of Santo Domingo?
Don't think there's much...
airline business being being discussed....only hi perform fighters.
So what if all those countries are powder kegs waiting to explode? Seems irrelevant to the question of balances of power. Or is anyone suggesting that there's one LA/SA country that really wants to seize another? Hmmm. All seems highly doubtful.
Best, P
airline business being being discussed....only hi perform fighters.
So what if all those countries are powder kegs waiting to explode? Seems irrelevant to the question of balances of power. Or is anyone suggesting that there's one LA/SA country that really wants to seize another? Hmmm. All seems highly doubtful.
Best, P
Re: Don't think there's much...
Hmmm...Forgot about the Falklands? Chile and Argentina almost came to blows over some Islands in the straights of Magellan. It wasn't that long ago where Peru and Ecuador were fighting over territory.
How long do you think Bolivia would hold back from attacking Chile over their lost access to the sea if they had the Money and military power. Luckily for Chile that is not going to happen soon.
Nowadays most military incursions are not about one country wanting to conquer another but over Economic, Political or Soverignty issues.
I, in know way, believe that Venezuela will invade the DR but I do not put it past Chavez to lob a few shells to take his people's minds off of the Mess he has made at home.
pasha said:
Hmmm...Forgot about the Falklands? Chile and Argentina almost came to blows over some Islands in the straights of Magellan. It wasn't that long ago where Peru and Ecuador were fighting over territory.
How long do you think Bolivia would hold back from attacking Chile over their lost access to the sea if they had the Money and military power. Luckily for Chile that is not going to happen soon.
Nowadays most military incursions are not about one country wanting to conquer another but over Economic, Political or Soverignty issues.
I, in know way, believe that Venezuela will invade the DR but I do not put it past Chavez to lob a few shells to take his people's minds off of the Mess he has made at home.
I have to be careful how I say this ...
... but I think there would be more than a few people here in the Dominican Republic that would be, ah, less than greatly upset, if someone started lobbing shells at ol' Baldy considering the mess he's created here.
Tom (aka XR)
... but I think there would be more than a few people here in the Dominican Republic that would be, ah, less than greatly upset, if someone started lobbing shells at ol' Baldy considering the mess he's created here.
Tom (aka XR)
Interestingly (in my opinion, anyway), Ecuador, a country on par economically with the DR, has a relatively powerful military out of necessity. It's constant wars with Peru have left it no other choice. No, it never wins its wars with Peru, but it does create a deterent.
The DR's greatest deterent to military aggression is that nobody would want the place. No oil and 10M hungry mouths to feed.
The DR's greatest deterent to military aggression is that nobody would want the place. No oil and 10M hungry mouths to feed.
Well guys.....
I reckon I have to bow to your superior collective wisdom and experience, but Porfio struck a cord with me: who the hay needs 10M extra mouths to feed? Maybe the real goal is to have total access to those beauties in Santiago that AZB talks about so often......AZB do you know you're fomenting all out war in the region with those loose lips [of yours I mean]?
Someone mentioned the Falklands. Right. Another case of a determined First World military power kicking the bejeezus out of an outgunned, second rate one. Kind of hard to call that war......about like Gulf Storm was a war. The Malavines Campaign was so pitiful that the submarine commander who sank the Amiral Belgamo [sic?] got sick to his stomach over the unnecessary slaughter....or so I've been told.
Anyhow.....I'll be tuned in, sleeping with one eye open to see which of those great powers makes a move on the other anytime soon.
Best, P
PS - was just at a conference where one of the main speakers was a Professor at Lima University in Peru. According to him the Bolivians actually beat the snot out of the Peruvians in the last fracas, but in some sort of back room land/pipeline deal that benefited Bolivia, it was agreed to publically say that Peru was the victor. Go figure.
I reckon I have to bow to your superior collective wisdom and experience, but Porfio struck a cord with me: who the hay needs 10M extra mouths to feed? Maybe the real goal is to have total access to those beauties in Santiago that AZB talks about so often......AZB do you know you're fomenting all out war in the region with those loose lips [of yours I mean]?
Someone mentioned the Falklands. Right. Another case of a determined First World military power kicking the bejeezus out of an outgunned, second rate one. Kind of hard to call that war......about like Gulf Storm was a war. The Malavines Campaign was so pitiful that the submarine commander who sank the Amiral Belgamo [sic?] got sick to his stomach over the unnecessary slaughter....or so I've been told.
Anyhow.....I'll be tuned in, sleeping with one eye open to see which of those great powers makes a move on the other anytime soon.
Best, P
PS - was just at a conference where one of the main speakers was a Professor at Lima University in Peru. According to him the Bolivians actually beat the snot out of the Peruvians in the last fracas, but in some sort of back room land/pipeline deal that benefited Bolivia, it was agreed to publically say that Peru was the victor. Go figure.
Tony C said:
Astute yes! Geo-political no! I still have to find the relevance of this thread -- is it about the DR, well, no, not really. Besides, Imagine if..... Well, I can come up with many imgine ifs.... and these imaginary ifs don't necesarily include airplanes from -- uhm, where was it again?
Saber Rattling
The DR angle is this:
Is Chavez just Saber Rattling when it comes to the DR? Does the DR need to fear Venezuela now? Not just militarily but economically?
Posted by Chris:
"Astute yes! Geo-political no! I still have to find the relevance of this thread -- is it about the DR, well, no, not really. Besides, Imagine if..... Well, I can come up with many imgine ifs.... and these imaginary ifs don't necesarily include airplanes from -- uhm, where was it again?"
Oh wow! I guess you proved that you are sooooo much smarter than me!
The DR angle is this:
Is Chavez just Saber Rattling when it comes to the DR? Does the DR need to fear Venezuela now? Not just militarily but economically?
Posted by Chris:
"Astute yes! Geo-political no! I still have to find the relevance of this thread -- is it about the DR, well, no, not really. Besides, Imagine if..... Well, I can come up with many imgine ifs.... and these imaginary ifs don't necesarily include airplanes from -- uhm, where was it again?"
Oh wow! I guess you proved that you are sooooo much smarter than me!