If that's the only reason you have to believe, and there is a higher being, you're in trouble! It's called Pascal's wager, IIRC.
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Catholicism and the Supernatural
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QUOTE LatinoRican
"Faith that a small, thin wafer made of flour will save your soul from hell is what makes religions what they are."[/QUOTE]
As a Catholic my belief is that the "thin wafer made of flour" becomes the Body of Christ. If you do not believe that you should never receive the Sacrament.
"Faith that a small, thin wafer made of flour will save your soul from hell is what makes religions what they are."[/QUOTE]
As a Catholic my belief is that the "thin wafer made of flour" becomes the Body of Christ. If you do not believe that you should never receive the Sacrament.
here is a thought
Santeria is heavily practiced in Cuba and Puerto Rico where there is a pretty big 'white' population. no offense to anybody, i know latinos are a diverse group of all colors, size, shapes, everything! but people are free to practice any form of religion they wish!
I used to have a puerto rican landlord who looked like Vigo Mortensen [lord of the rings] and he was into his santeria too, who would have thought?
Jaime
Santeria is heavily practiced in Cuba and Puerto Rico where there is a pretty big 'white' population. no offense to anybody, i know latinos are a diverse group of all colors, size, shapes, everything! but people are free to practice any form of religion they wish!
I used to have a puerto rican landlord who looked like Vigo Mortensen [lord of the rings] and he was into his santeria too, who would have thought?
Jaime
Now or Never?
The OP's main concern seems to be how many Catholics in the DR also dabble in what he names the "supernatural" or doing things of a spiritual nature that the Catholic church would frown upon. Being raised in the Catholic religion, I know that one of its basic tenants or beliefs is that if you are good, etc., you will receive your reward in the afterlife. I guess some people would like to benefit from these "rewards" (wealth, love, etc.) in this lifetime and will do whatever it takes to have them come their way!
The OP's main concern seems to be how many Catholics in the DR also dabble in what he names the "supernatural" or doing things of a spiritual nature that the Catholic church would frown upon. Being raised in the Catholic religion, I know that one of its basic tenants or beliefs is that if you are good, etc., you will receive your reward in the afterlife. I guess some people would like to benefit from these "rewards" (wealth, love, etc.) in this lifetime and will do whatever it takes to have them come their way!
a little history excerpt
Santeria orginated in Cuba as a combination of the Western African Yoruba Religion and Iberian Catholicism 2 . "It is one of the many syncretic religions created by Africans brought to the Caribbean islands as slaves." 56 . It was developed out of necessity for the African slaves in order to continue practicing their native religion in the New World. As in all countries where the African slaves were taken, Cuban slave masters discouraged and sometimes prohibited the practice of their native religions 40 .
The slaves in Cuba were forced to follow the practices of the Catholic Church, which went against the beliefs of their native religions. Noticing the parallels between their native religion and Catholicism, and in order to please their slave-masters and fulfill their own religious needs, they created a secret religion. Santeria uses Catholic saints and personages as fronts for their own god and Orishas (spiritual emissaries). Thus, when a slave prayed to an Orisha, it looked as if they were praying to a saint. 3
re: there are many guardians some names that sound familiar to me are Yemaya, Babalu, and Chango.
Santeria orginated in Cuba as a combination of the Western African Yoruba Religion and Iberian Catholicism 2 . "It is one of the many syncretic religions created by Africans brought to the Caribbean islands as slaves." 56 . It was developed out of necessity for the African slaves in order to continue practicing their native religion in the New World. As in all countries where the African slaves were taken, Cuban slave masters discouraged and sometimes prohibited the practice of their native religions 40 .
The slaves in Cuba were forced to follow the practices of the Catholic Church, which went against the beliefs of their native religions. Noticing the parallels between their native religion and Catholicism, and in order to please their slave-masters and fulfill their own religious needs, they created a secret religion. Santeria uses Catholic saints and personages as fronts for their own god and Orishas (spiritual emissaries). Thus, when a slave prayed to an Orisha, it looked as if they were praying to a saint. 3
re: there are many guardians some names that sound familiar to me are Yemaya, Babalu, and Chango.
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Chip00
Guest
Maybe in your mind they were one people but you don't speak for the majority the Dominicans and nor historians either.
Just because the DR was occupied by a foreign power speaking a foreign language for a very short period of time doesn't mean they were one people.
If you are referencing when the indians lived here or in the very beginning when there were just a few outposts these aren't relevant becasue the people then and their customs aren't connected today with what remains in Haiti nor the DR.
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Chip00
Guest
If you want to believe what yoiu want to believe, I have no problem.
However the comment about "mind control" is a cheap jab, and shows your ignorance.
FYI - I go to church whether Christian or Catholic not because of man, because men are failures - I go to give thanks to the Creator who made me, end of story. I have had this feeling in me since I was little and it has nothing to do with whatever the resident pastor is telling me. Every pastor, priest and even the Pope are men just like me and imperfect just like me. Their have their "impetus" from the Creator to do what they have to do just like I do.
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Chip00
Guest
- I was merely making a point, gracias!Good Point
I probably should have stated that the west africans that came over from nigeria mostly were all one people and they were spread around the island. or that the slave trade took a group made up majority of one people, or group, or tribe? not sure how to define this since i am not Dominican nor a historian, but i think it is agreed historically that a large percentage of african descent that came to the caribbean came from nigeria. now what i meant to say was that these people were brought over to the island, which at one time in history was one civilization [lack of better word, maybe location], so i would think it is logical to assume that western african tradition, culture, and even religion was spread about the entire island. all from the same people, at the very least the same source. now with the integration of the spanish, the indians, the hard push of catholicism, i dont see how a historian can debate the dominican/haitian diaspora [at least the african portion] is one common heritage/history now separated not only by border but by ideology and language.
i am sorry i should have been clearer in my original statement.
but on another note the island of Hispaniola was occupied by a foreign power for a pretty long time, a few centuries = generations and that does constitute quite some time and history. everyone had a piece in making the island what it is today, religion included!
I probably should have stated that the west africans that came over from nigeria mostly were all one people and they were spread around the island. or that the slave trade took a group made up majority of one people, or group, or tribe? not sure how to define this since i am not Dominican nor a historian, but i think it is agreed historically that a large percentage of african descent that came to the caribbean came from nigeria. now what i meant to say was that these people were brought over to the island, which at one time in history was one civilization [lack of better word, maybe location], so i would think it is logical to assume that western african tradition, culture, and even religion was spread about the entire island. all from the same people, at the very least the same source. now with the integration of the spanish, the indians, the hard push of catholicism, i dont see how a historian can debate the dominican/haitian diaspora [at least the african portion] is one common heritage/history now separated not only by border but by ideology and language.
i am sorry i should have been clearer in my original statement.
but on another note the island of Hispaniola was occupied by a foreign power for a pretty long time, a few centuries = generations and that does constitute quite some time and history. everyone had a piece in making the island what it is today, religion included!
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Chip00
Guest
No offense but you're assumptions aren't in agreement with recorded history of the DR nor are they even close. There isn't any recorded history of large amounts of slaves coming from Nigeria, they came from Spain. As far as the occupation of the DR by a foreign power for a "few centuries" that is false as well.
I realize anybody can make mistakes but it appears that you may need to brush up on the history of the DR. Check out the following link to get yourself up to speed:
History of the Dominican Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Chip00
Guest
No offense, but tell me where it can be found that says large amounts of African slaves from Nigeria were brought to the DR? I realize there are references that slaves were brought directly from Africa to the DR but was making the point that this guy seems to be assuming that the slaves came from Nigeria. Also, what about the occupation of the DR by another country for a "few centuries"?
If you don't Wiki here is another link as well by a historical analysys written in 1918 by a German author:
Santo Domingo by Otto Schoenrich - Project Gutenberg
BTW, I read more than just Wikipedia, it is just convenient to use and if you read it I think you would be surprised that it doesn't disagree too much with other references.
If I remember correctly, Isabela la Catolica funded Columbus' voyage and one way to show allegiance to her was to spread (enforce) the Catholic religion to the indigenous peoples.
I'm sure that the natives had no interest in changing their belief system, so maybe the apparent differences have something to do with how it was incorporated.
Many Latin American countries are Spiritists. This is not a religion but a philosophy, so it could be completely acceptable to be Catholic too. And be safe in that political environment.
mkohn
PS, the reference to the 21 or 23 grams/Sean Penn movie was the study on the proof of the existence of the soul.
I'm sure that the natives had no interest in changing their belief system, so maybe the apparent differences have something to do with how it was incorporated.
Many Latin American countries are Spiritists. This is not a religion but a philosophy, so it could be completely acceptable to be Catholic too. And be safe in that political environment.
mkohn
PS, the reference to the 21 or 23 grams/Sean Penn movie was the study on the proof of the existence of the soul.
Chip, the slave trade to the Americas was run from West Africa. The slaves in the Americas (including the Carribean) came from West Africa, Senegal, Guinea, Sierra Leone and Ghana, for example. Nigeria is a West African Country that used to be a UK colony. While many slaves were captured and collected inland, and transported/driven to a port, a town in Nigeria was known as the busiest slave port. The town is Badagry. It is estimated that 550,000 slaves were 'exported' from Badagry only.
So, it is not a stretch of the imagination by any means to say the UK, North America and the Caribbean received most of their slaves from Nigeria.
There were also some name changes of countries through time, and if memory serves, some part of Nigeria was previously called Biafra.
Having said that, a large portion of the original religion came with these people. If I look at voodoo/vudu or santeria ceremonies today, whether in a Dominican context or a Haitian context, even the rythms, the content, the songs, the chants, the body movements and the style to me spells Africa.
So, it is not strange to me that the people mix Catholocism (sp?) with their own original religions. Especially in the light of the fact that many ceremonial gatherings were hidden and protected by slaves and done in secret.
But the major port of export in Africa for slaves destinated for the Americas was Nigeria, although slave hunters gathered slaves from many countries in Central Africa. I see that you ask for where this information can be found? I'm talking for memory here but I'm sure you can find it in any reputable source that deals with the history of slavery.
LatinoRican, I think this is a very large topic and it will jump around a little.
The thread is also hanging by a 'thread' ... so let's keep closely to the original poster's question here.
So, it is not a stretch of the imagination by any means to say the UK, North America and the Caribbean received most of their slaves from Nigeria.
There were also some name changes of countries through time, and if memory serves, some part of Nigeria was previously called Biafra.
Having said that, a large portion of the original religion came with these people. If I look at voodoo/vudu or santeria ceremonies today, whether in a Dominican context or a Haitian context, even the rythms, the content, the songs, the chants, the body movements and the style to me spells Africa.
So, it is not strange to me that the people mix Catholocism (sp?) with their own original religions. Especially in the light of the fact that many ceremonial gatherings were hidden and protected by slaves and done in secret.
But the major port of export in Africa for slaves destinated for the Americas was Nigeria, although slave hunters gathered slaves from many countries in Central Africa. I see that you ask for where this information can be found? I'm talking for memory here but I'm sure you can find it in any reputable source that deals with the history of slavery.
LatinoRican, I think this is a very large topic and it will jump around a little.
The thread is also hanging by a 'thread' ... so let's keep closely to the original poster's question here.
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This Guy
I read more than just Wikipedia too but while we are on that topic:
African diaspora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and a large amount of slaves coming from Spain? somehow that doesnt make sense?
Forgive me if I mention Nigeria a lot, I will have to find my books on the slave trade that I had way back in college. There was enough evidence to support that a majority of the slave population that made its way to the Americas came via western Africa, hence why I keep mentioning Nigeria so much because it is documented that the slaves were mostly sought after from that region of Africa. On top of that keep in mind this thread is religiously motivated and my reference to Nigeria also underlines the point that most of this 'caribean' religion or afro religion for a lack of better term has proven origins from Nigeria [voodoo, santeria, palo, candomble you name it] and that these lovely nations/islands/people make that trip back to Africa to see where the root of their 'religion' came from. Most of those meetings are held in Nigeria...coincidence? i think not.
hey im not a historian, but I am not making this stuff up. there is no real way to pinpoint where the african origin in the island of Hispaniola really came from, but i am taking a logical guess from west africa.
maybe Hispaniola wasnt 'occupied' by another country per say, but a spanish colony since Columbus came over from europe until when? the Haitian revolution? isnt that like 300 years? wasnt that followed by DR's actual declaration as a republic/independent? and somewhere along the line the US gets involved [as it seems to be all the time]...but thats a whole other can of worms.
im sure this guy can find that in Wikipedia
Jaime
I read more than just Wikipedia too but while we are on that topic:
African diaspora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and a large amount of slaves coming from Spain? somehow that doesnt make sense?
Forgive me if I mention Nigeria a lot, I will have to find my books on the slave trade that I had way back in college. There was enough evidence to support that a majority of the slave population that made its way to the Americas came via western Africa, hence why I keep mentioning Nigeria so much because it is documented that the slaves were mostly sought after from that region of Africa. On top of that keep in mind this thread is religiously motivated and my reference to Nigeria also underlines the point that most of this 'caribean' religion or afro religion for a lack of better term has proven origins from Nigeria [voodoo, santeria, palo, candomble you name it] and that these lovely nations/islands/people make that trip back to Africa to see where the root of their 'religion' came from. Most of those meetings are held in Nigeria...coincidence? i think not.
hey im not a historian, but I am not making this stuff up. there is no real way to pinpoint where the african origin in the island of Hispaniola really came from, but i am taking a logical guess from west africa.
maybe Hispaniola wasnt 'occupied' by another country per say, but a spanish colony since Columbus came over from europe until when? the Haitian revolution? isnt that like 300 years? wasnt that followed by DR's actual declaration as a republic/independent? and somewhere along the line the US gets involved [as it seems to be all the time]...but thats a whole other can of worms.
im sure this guy can find that in Wikipedia
Jaime
Damn
b4 I go home for the night, just want to say THANK YOU for backing up the info! I will find my sources for what I have stated here, but I know I am not the only one that has Nigeria on their mind. History is so rich as is culture. THe whole caribean is rich with it and I think it is amazing how this 'religion' made its way over! I really had no idea how or where it originated all from!
I'll be back to post later! EVERYONE have a good night!
Jaime
b4 I go home for the night, just want to say THANK YOU for backing up the info! I will find my sources for what I have stated here, but I know I am not the only one that has Nigeria on their mind. History is so rich as is culture. THe whole caribean is rich with it and I think it is amazing how this 'religion' made its way over! I really had no idea how or where it originated all from!
I'll be back to post later! EVERYONE have a good night!
Jaime
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No problem Jaime. As I say, I'm talking from memory but I'm positive that most of what I say can be confirmed from reputable literature.
Something to add if one thinks of how the old African religions came to be here and mixed up with the religion of the colonial powers that owned the DR, it is actually hard to pinpoint where exactly slaves came from, given today's country names and borders. Do remember we're talking about a nomadic agrarian hunter tribal society and these people did not necessarily identify with the lines drawn and country names given by colonial powers in those days. Tribes moved to and fro across borders and the slave caravans hunted far and wide. The nomadic tribes very seldom planted their crops in the same spot twice .. they would plant, harvest and move.
Something to add if one thinks of how the old African religions came to be here and mixed up with the religion of the colonial powers that owned the DR, it is actually hard to pinpoint where exactly slaves came from, given today's country names and borders. Do remember we're talking about a nomadic agrarian hunter tribal society and these people did not necessarily identify with the lines drawn and country names given by colonial powers in those days. Tribes moved to and fro across borders and the slave caravans hunted far and wide. The nomadic tribes very seldom planted their crops in the same spot twice .. they would plant, harvest and move.
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Chip00
Guest
This still doesn't address the comment about Hispaniola being "one people" nor the comment about the colonization of Spain being an "occupation".
While I'm no expert on the DR's history I don't like to see history being re-written as is so common in other threads and when this fellow puts these comments in his threads a naturally a few red flags went up. The above statement IMO really should cause one to doubt the posters credibility.
As far as the origin of the "embellishments" to the Catholic faith in the DR, whether African or Taino rooted, it should be noted that the church has had to deal with this wherever it has grown, from Africa to Europe to the Americas and has more to do with lack of knowledge of one's faith more than anything else. Remember, in Europe, there were pagan tribes who had their rituals before converting to Christianity and how many generations do you think it took to root out these "practices"?
Why would anyone worry about it. If you are a good person, but turn out to be wrong in your beliefs, you'll surly not end up in the hot place. It's more about how you live...ie actions, than what you believe.
Santeria is a mixture of Voodoo and catholic religion, widely practiced in Cuba, the DR, and Haiti.
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