Catholicism and the Supernatural

[jalencastro]

Yes Sir

Looking closer at the map from that link it seems that many came from the area called Bight of Benin now called Nigeria. If you follow the arrow it starts there and goes into the Caribbean area. This jibes with what member jalencastro has been stating about the Nigeria area.

thanks to everyone for continuing this thread and posting all these interesting links! Like I said before, I know I read somewhere about Nigeria being mentioned as the place where most of the slaves came from. Now I know that cant be totally true as we have a nice map/diagram showing a whole continent of where slaves were brought over....truly amazing and sad, but this is history.
Keep up the good posts! remember to keep it clean folks! LOL

Jaime :bunny:

 

[Chris]

IMO atnd others there is definitely a slant away from organized religion here -

Yes, and I tried to convey this from the beginning. And this is why I let the thread develop initially, instead of cutting it off before it started. This is not about anyone's personal religion. It is about the integration of Christianity in the form that it exists in the DR, with the Earth religions - brought to the DR to a large extent by slaves and also from the original inhabitants of the area.

however, some should understand that there are some normal God-fearing people too who actually respect everybody's right to think and believe what they want.

By definition, others are not normal? You say you respect everyone's right to think and believe what they want, but in the same sentence, you say that you're normal and by definition others are not? How respectful is that? And how can it lead to fair discussion on the board. In my mind, it can only lead to 'my religion is better than yours' type discussion?

Fair dinkum! I don't understand the logic but it sure does not feel very respectful to me?

Back to the point --- I really enjoyed the Yvonne Schaffler article.

 

[Texas Bill]

There is such a thing as Christian Spiritualists.
My understanding, Spiritualism believes in the continuity of life. Translated as "the communion of saints" or "eternal life."
Why, even Depak Chopra reminds us that matter is neither created nor destroyed, and I'd like to believe that I am matter.
And there is a movie with Sean Penn where a body was scientifically weighed before and after death - the difference was twenty some grams. What left?
So, who knows? Isn't it possible that since thoughts are things that they are real to those who think them?
No, I am not a Christian Spiritualist - only a thinker and matter. :ermm:
Thanks to the OP for a lively topic.
mkohn

The loss of the water vapor in the lungs could account for the loss of weight.
Did they take that phenomenon into consideration, or did they totally ignore the physical dehydration factor?
I am of the opinion that many of the "religeous" and "saintly" aspects of all faiths are the result of emotional manipulation by the "Priestly Sect" of those religions in an effort to elevate their status within the cuerpo populus, thereby gaining power over that same factor.
I had a religion professor at Baylor university express that "the Bible is a beautiful fairytale designed to capture the minds of the simple and the uneducated.
Is it any wonder then that all sorts of superstitions are given credence in the name of "Religion"??

Just my dos pesos worth.

Texas Bill

 

[Rick Snyder]

?acceptable norms of behavior?

Devotion to anything is in the eyes of the beholder. If I say I am a devote antagonist but agree with everyone then you have the ability to tell me that you don?t think I am an antagonist and you can even explain as to why you think that way. You by no means have the right, as it relates to DR1, to call me ?ignorant? for my declaration. In posts #3 and 29 are the only posts in this thread that calls anyone names and one post was deleted so I can?t comment on it. In post #49 there was a mention, name calling if you will, directed toward all religions and beliefs and due to its broad scope I wouldn?t classify it as name calling. Post #51 called someone ?funny? but it is very obvious the word ?humorous? is what the author of that post meant and I don?t consider that name calling.

I will once again state for the record that under normal circumstances this subject wouldn?t be allowed on DR1 but as the discussion has been going in a very understandable straightforward direction it is being allowed. The other rules and regulations of this board are still in effect and must be adhered to. Carry on.

Rick

Jalencastro, for your information Chris is female. Just thought you should know.

 

[Texas Bill]

Looking closer at the map from that link it seems that many came from the area called Bight of Benin now called Nigeria. If you follow the arrow it starts there and goes into the Caribbean area. This jibes with what member jalencastro has been stating about the Nigeria area.

The use of the "N" word in theStates had its origin in the fact that MOST of the slaves were imported friom THAT region of Africa while ignoring the other origins of the people themselves. These people were furnished, by and large, by the leaders of the tribes of origin. Sometimes entire villages were sold of by the then leader for personal gain and to eliminate desension in his teritory.
Belief in an "immortal soul" is not the exclusive teaching of Christianity. It was taught and practices by many of the ancient (and still in use) religions. The Pharonic episodes reaveal this as being practiced over thousands of years, not only by the Egyptians, but by many of the Eastern Cultures as far back as the Babylonian times.
So, is it any wonder that the co-existance of basic religious philosophy is interwoven in theDR and the entire Caribbean area. Its the same the world over. The DR is NOT unique in this matter. It is the nature of man to compromise and adjust to meet the times and the demands of the existing sociatal mores.

Texas Bill

 

[Chris]

The use of the "N" word in theStates had its origin in the fact that MOST of the slaves were imported friom THAT region of Africa while ignoring the other origins of the people themselves.

I never knew that Texas Bill! Wow! What we learn daily ... lol

 

[Norma Rosa]

thanks to everyone for continuing this thread and posting all these interesting links! Like I said before, I know I read somewhere about Nigeria being mentioned as the place where most of the slaves came from. Now I know that cant be totally true as we have a nice map/diagram showing a whole continent of where slaves were brought over....truly amazing and sad, but this is history.
Keep up the good posts! remember to keep it clean folks! LOL

Jaime :bunny:

It is quite an ordeal to try to figure out from what part of Africa slaves came to the Americas. Although shipment took place at the western coast, one should not assume that that was their place of origin.
A bit of history: Domestic slavery had been a traditional custom on the west African coast long before the Portuguese exploration of the Atlantic coast of Africa in (1433?) These slaves were sold in exchange for European goods. When the supply of slaves became exhausted, the coastal tribes then turned to raiding their neighbors in the interior. Captives were brought to the coast and imprisoned to await purchase and shipment by European traders. By 1460, between 700 and 800 slaves were being imported annually to Portugal. Spain soon followed Portugal?s example. In 1517, Bartolom? de las Casas, Bishop of Chiapa went to Spain to plead to Charles the V that negro slaves be sent out to the colonies. His suggestion was approved and for nearly four centuries the African continent was RAIDED to supply the demand for labor in the New World. There are no accurate figures available as to the number of negroes that crossed the Atlantic. Some scholars have suggested that some 30 millions were brought to North and South America in the course of the slave trade (not counting those that died in the passage). Is it possible to point at the specific place in Africa where these many people came from? Perhaps, but that is something extremely difficult. Some wealthy black Americans have traced their African roots using DNA.
I hope I did not insult anyone's intelligence with my post. I love history and appreciate the opportunity to look into some aspects of it.

Here to help and learn,
Norma

 

[mkohn]

Hi Texas Bill,
I hadn't thought about water vapor, but anything's possible. I know they put them on a cot that was pre-weighed, but I don't know if they put on a "mask" to collect anything that might have been exhaled...and I haven't yet watched the movie. I guess assuming the breath would be completely exhaled, I wonder how they'd go about measuring it. And how much it would weigh.
I was thinking that the music of the DR is often described as Afro-Caribbean, and doesn't appear to have Christian influences.
There was a really interesting show on cable yesterday about Miracles in different Religions. It did a short bit about vodoo where the priestess did a ceremony, but left the source of the miracle as a mystery.
I'd have loved to have someone do something on the DR.
Thanks for adding this bit of food for thought.
mkohn

 

[Chip00]

?acceptable norms of behavior?

Devotion to anything is in the eyes of the beholder. If I say I am a devote antagonist but agree with everyone then you have the ability to tell me that you don?t think I am an antagonist and you can even explain as to why you think that way. You by no means have the right, as it relates to DR1, to call me ?ignorant? for my declaration. In posts #3 and 29 are the only posts in this thread that calls anyone names and one post was deleted so I can?t comment on it. In post #49 there was a mention, name calling if you will, directed toward all religions and beliefs and due to its broad scope I wouldn?t classify it as name calling. Post #51 called someone ?funny? but it is very obvious the word ?humorous? is what the author of that post meant and I don?t consider that name calling.

Rick - first of all I'm a little surprised that a person of your obvious credentials and intelligence was offended by my use of the term "ignorant". Yes, I realize to many "ignorant" has become a "negative" term used for name calling but that was not my intention. Therefore, instead of "ignorant" I believe "unaware" and/or "uniformed" will equally suffice.

Furthermore, I have no issue with people believing whatever they want to believe but I don't understand why if, I, as a lifelong member of the Catholic Church and with the credentials of actually having been trained in the established and approved beliefs cannot defend her against attacks based on mistruths. I understand many, many, many people do not like the Catholic Church in any way shape or form and it is their right, which I, as a proponent of laissez faire do not wish do deny them. I only wish to address the issue of uninformed speaking on the Catholic Church's behalf or it's purported beliefs. If someone attempts to "smear" a dear friend of yours and you know the information is misguided at best or worst, would you not defend this person and speak the truth you know?

 

[Chris]

Like I said to you in a pm Chip - We do not talk about our religions here, we don't defend them, and we don't attack other people's religions. The only reason this thread is still alive, is that people are in a discussion ... not in a personal mode of defending or attacking anything. You are not permitted to do this on the board and all the moderators will enforce this, as we've seen what happens if we don't.

The 'religion'? that developed from all the sources in the Caribbean - slaves, original inhabitants and Spain, is generally called Santeria. Santeria is commonly known as a syncretistic Caribbean religion. It is not a Catholic religion, but has grown from, and borrowed from the symbols and rituals and specifically the Saints.

No-one has attacked that, or defended that. No-one has attacked the Catholic faith but you persist in attacking all and everyone - even the protestants as per your post number 2. You assume nobody knows what is Catholic, and what is not. Note, in this thread, you are the only person whose religion is even visible. No-one else has made statements about what they are, and how they worship. It is against the policies of this board - and is not to be discussed here.

Rick will certainly come to his own conclusion here, but it is becoming more trouble than what it is worth. You are now going directly against what two moderators have repeatedly told you.

 

[bob saunders]

This link gives a fairly accurate descrition of Voodoo, and provides many links, Also provides some interesting information on tolerence and respect of others beliefs.
VODUN (and related religions: Candomble, Lucumi, Macumba, Voodoo, Vodoun, & Yoruba)


This link provides descrition of Santeria
Santeria: African Gods In America

 

[A.Hidalgo]

This link provides descrition of Santeria
Santeria: African Gods In America

Interesting article in that it gives a historical perspective on Santeria in Latin countries. We must be mindful that it is written by a Protestant Evangelical author who has his own agenda to execute. Further into the article he criticizes the Catholic Church for making the mistake of not performing the conversion to the faith properly, but that the evangelicals have the correct formula. Which brings me to the bottom quote

Anyway, in almost every belief that uses a documented book as a source of teachings of that belief there is one phrase that they all contain. Though the wording varies a little in each book they all convey the same message. That message, if followed by those believers, would insure a very peaceful coexistence between all people, regardless of their beliefs, throughout the world.


Rick

History has shown the difficulty in attaining this when one group thinks they have the answer because their's is the correct interpretation.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Chip,

I really had no desire to go here but as your post used my quote, and everyone should know by now what that indicates to me, I must respond directly to you. You will note that my prior post was directed at no particular person through a name and all quoted words were used with quotation marks with no reference as to the person that made such statements. I did use post numbers but that was used to prove the validity of my statements and required a person to go back in the thread if they were so inclined to determine who had used the words as stated.

First off let me say that I was not offended by the use of the word (ignorant/ignorance) especially as it wasn?t directed at me, except in a proxy setting which holds no significance. As indicated by you, ?I realize to many "ignorant" has become a "negative" term used for name calling?, and regardless as to your ?intension? the words "unaware" and/or "uniformed" would definitely have been more appropriate but as you didn?t use either of those words we are in our present mode. I, as a moderator, must weigh that which I read and try to determine if the ?DR1 rules? have crossed that proverbial line in the sand. Like you I too know how some people feel about the word ?ignorant/ignorance? and therefore try to never use it and point it out when it is used.

Now I wish you to see your statement from the post above again, ?I have no issue with people believing whatever they want to believe but I don't understand why if, I, as a lifelong member of the Catholic Church and with the credentials of actually having been trained in the established and approved beliefs cannot defend her against attacks based on mistruths? and now present the post from Windeguy whereas he said;

?You are of course correct that that anything is possible, despite how unlikely it could be. I see no reason to believe in an eternal soul and/or supreme being(s), reincarnation, etc.

At latest count, how many "one true religions" are there in the world? Nothing I have seen would ever lead me to "believe nor have faith" in such things. The various religions have various levels of mind control over the population which is sometimes referred to as the opiate of the masses. These religions try to provide an explanation for why we are here and what will happen with different explanations depending upon the religion.?

From looking at his post I see no attack on the ?Catholic church? much less the word ?Catholic? contained therein. I will admit that there may or may not be an insinuation of the ?Catholic church? in his use of the words, ?The various religions?, but regardless of that ?supposed insinuation? I see no reason for you to say to him, ?shows your ignorance?.

Therein lies the only problems in this thread. Of the 8 pages, 19 participants and very interesting information there has been no attacks made directly on any one belief.

If you feel deep in your heart that you must defend your beliefs against all attacks both real and imagined then I suggest you do it elsewhere. Though there is a lot of truth in your words of, ?I understand many, many, many people do not like the Catholic Church in any way shape or form?, it is this understanding that should allow you to show a little compassion and not revert to name calling as a form of your defense against an imagined attack.

I had made the suggestion earlier that if a person felt the least bit taken aback by this subject matter then they should ?unsubscribe? from this thread.

Because of my interest in learning things that I was unfamiliar with before I wish to thank people like Bob Saunders for supplying some wonderful links to expand my mind. When linking to such sources of information I am greeted with the subject matter and organization supplying the information. Upon reading the subject and the organization I have the ability to read on or disconnect depending upon my threshold of wanting to learn of that subject.

If you should make one more post to this thread which has no bearing on the subject matter I will delete it. From the words of our infamous leader Robert, ?You call it censorship, we call it moderating. You call it freedom of speech, we just laugh and suggest you go find another website?.

Rick

Sorry board members carry on.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Get it back on proper track.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Cobraboy,

You brought this subject matter to the forefront and we have gone through 8 pages of discussion. A person such as myself has learned a lot of useful information as it applies to religion here in the DR which helps me better understand the workings of religion here in everyday life. I must admit that I have always wondered why some people, such as my in-laws, claim to be devote Catholics and read from the bible every time things seem to go astray and then go out to the back house to light candles, concoct brews to sprinkle on their premises and dance around chanting words that I can't deciper and all done without the proverbial bible in attendance. I now am sure I understand why and for that I thank you for bringing this subject up.

It would appear that the reasoning for your original question has been answered and there is no reason to go into whether a person should consider it wrong or right or to converse on other aspects of beliefs.

Due to that I have decided that this thread is now closed as any further discussion is more than likely to cross the bounds of acceptability as it relates to rules on DR1. I am doing this as it seems to be the prudent thing to do at this time and would suggest that if anyone feels they have something they wish to say to any particular person that they do so by PM.

Rick