Changed to solar and...... Wow!

[william webster]

ww. you may be a nubbie... Just kidding. But I like what you have done.

So... what country are you in?

Today ? Canada, just finished dinner w/ friends.

On the shores of the Great Lakes, The great lake called 'Huron'
Very 'fallish', cool temps, angular sun.... Cdn's will know what I mean.
Time to go south.

Oh, thx for forgiving my newbie status.... I'm pushing forward towards a higher level w/o knowing what's there.

Waiting for my new Great Dane to be big enough to travel. Just 3 weeks old now.

 

[windeguy]

Lawyers and a detective needed to find an almost 2,000 watt load gone missing

You mentioned using 65 KWH daily for 30 days is 1, 950 KWH per month at 10.86 $RD/KWH which is $RD 21,177 monthly which agrees with your past bills.

I used an online solar panel calculator at
Solar Panel Calculator - Solar Panels Calculator

I had to use 240 watt panels since the calculator did not have a selection fo 210 watt panels, which I compensated for in the final analysis. I used 8 hours of average sunlight per day, which I think is probably optimistic.

8 panels of 240 watts each with 8 hours of sunlight per day on average these panels would supply 380 KWH per month using the solar panel calculator. Correcting this to your 210 watt panels the amount generated by the 210 watt panels is 210/240 X 380 = 333 KHW per month.


333/1950 = 17% of your energy is from solar power based upon your original usage of 1,950 KWH per month. Now your Edenorte bill would be $RD 1,950-333 KWH => 1,617 KWH X 10.86 $RD/KWH = 17,560 $RD for a savings of $RD 3,616 monthly from your solar panels.


Keep in mind that the 333 KWH monthly at $RD 10.86 /KWH produced by this estimate from the solar panels is worth $RD 3,616 per month. That is the amount of savings monthly based upon the solar panels once you go over 700 KWH of usage in a month.

Figure the total cost of your installation and divide it by $RD 3,616 and that will give you the number of months it will take at current rates to pay back your system.

If 8 panels were $500 each that is $4,000 US or $RD 15,600 divided by $RD 3,616 is months or 4.3 years just to pay back for the cost of the solar panels and not including the cost of the charge controllers, battery inverter system, iinstallation, and any maintenance, etc.

To complete the analysis it would be interesting to know that the total system cost was.
Please check my work allowing for rounding errors to see if I plugged in the correct numbers in my calculation.

What does not make any sense at all is going from 65 KWH per day to 11.5 KWH per day.
The solar panels are providing about 11.1 KWH per day so there is a ?missing? 42.4 KWH daily that has thankfully but mysteriously disappeared from your meter readings. Something that was drawing almost 2,000 watts all day long is no longer connected so it is like turning off a pool pump that was running 24/7. How did you ever get charged for that indeed!!

 

[Hillbilly]

I am pretty impressed with this and I will say that after my son's experience, it is totally possible to reduce CDE-EdeNorte bills to about 30 dollars a month..no matter what kind of a house you run. He has TVs, computers, fans, appliances, water pumps, A/C units and even with guests there for weeks on end, he pays around RD$3500 with A/C units on all the time!!

So as soon as one of the properties goes, I am going solar and will call up your expertise!!

HB

 

[Tom F.]

I would probably switch the 8 hours of full sun production to 6 hours. Whenever I did the calculations in the past (when panels were more expensive) it was closer to 8 years. My guess is would be closer to 6 years with today's prices. There needs to whi 10-20% included in line and battery lose while using the system.

 

[windeguy]

I would probably switch the 8 hours of full sun production to 6 hours. Whenever I did the calculations in the past (when panels were more expensive) it was closer to 8 years. My guess is would be closer to 6 years with today's prices. There needs to whi 10-20% included in line and battery lose while using the system.

I believe the on line solar calculator that I used to generate the monthly output would take into account the losses in the charge controller/battery/inverter systems. If it doesn't then it would be completely misleading potential customers.

I do agree that 6 hours of production on average daily is more reasonable. I mentioned that 8 hours was optimistic. That would reduce the solar panels contribution by about 25% from what I calculated. That would mean Ringo's 8 panels are probably producing about 250 KWH monthly on average which is worth about $RD 2,715 a month in savings.

 

[Tom F.]

I would doubt the solar calculator takes into account using and charge controller, batteries and an inverter when calculating the production of a system when most systems in the US use net metering and avoid the battery bank. Just an idea. I do not remember the exact lose we measured but it was in that 10-20% range.

 

[Ringo]

EXCELANT WORK AND INFORMATION W.G.

You mentioned using 65 KWH daily for 30 days is 1, 950 KWH per month at 10.86 $RD/KWH which is $RD 21,177 monthly which agrees with your past bills.

I used an online solar panel calculator at
Solar Panel Calculator - Solar Panels Calculator

I had to use 240 watt panels since the calculator did not have a selection fo 210 watt panels, which I compensated for in the final analysis. I used 8 hours of average sunlight per day, which I think is probably optimistic.

8 panels of 240 watts each with 8 hours of sunlight per day on average these panels would supply 380 KWH per month using the solar panel calculator. Correcting this to your 210 watt panels the amount generated by the 210 watt panels is 210/240 X 380 = 333 KHW per month.


333/1950 = 17% of your energy is from solar power based upon your original usage of 1,950 KWH per month. Now your Edenorte bill would be $RD 1,950-333 KWH => 1,617 KWH X 10.86 $RD/KWH = 17,560 $RD for a savings of $RD 3,616 monthly from your solar panels.


Keep in mind that the 333 KWH monthly at $RD 10.86 /KWH produced by this estimate from the solar panels is worth $RD 3,616 per month. That is the amount of savings monthly based upon the solar panels once you go over 700 KWH of usage in a month.

Figure the total cost of your installation and divide it by $RD 3,616 and that will give you the number of months it will take at current rates to pay back your system.

If 8 panels were $500 each that is $4,000 US or $RD 15,600 divided by $RD 3,616 is months or 4.3 years just to pay back for the cost of the solar panels and not including the cost of the charge controllers, battery inverter system, iinstallation, and any maintenance, etc.

To complete the analysis it would be interesting to know that the total system cost was.
Please check my work allowing for rounding errors to see if I plugged in the correct numbers in my calculation.

What does not make any sense at all is going from 65 KWH per day to 11.5 KWH per day.
The solar panels are providing about 11.1 KWH per day so there is a ?missing? 42.4 KWH daily that has thankfully but mysteriously disappeared from your meter readings. Something that was drawing almost 2,000 watts all day long is no longer connected so it is like turning off a pool pump that was running 24/7. How did you ever get charged for that indeed!!

But let us keep in mind that it is an Edenorte problem and bill that we are attacking. We have been paying these outragous bills for years and have complained several times. I have hunted and hunted, turning things off and checking using our generator meters and have NEVER COME CLOSE to what Edenorte bills us for. So at my hunting wits end, I had to change the game.

Your figures are correct on pay back time IF I was replacing equal KWh. But I'm NOT swapping one equal for another. I'm getting rid of a D.R. $20,000. per month Bill and getting it to a $2,200 Bill. That is where it should be anyway. So running my pool pump for 5 hours per day at about 1.5 KWh per hr should be 7.5 KWh per day. I've just re-checked my daily averages and they have gone from 7KWh at the first of this month to 14KWh as of yesterday. NO changes made. So I have doubled my Edenorte use in 17 days. How the HELL can that happen? (I'll give you two guesses and the first does not count.) Your last para is right on.... how and where does/did ALL THAT POWER GO?

Keep up the good work and info guys. I really helps.

 

[Ringo]

I am pretty impressed with this and I will say that after my son's experience, it is totally possible to reduce CDE-EdeNorte bills to about 30 dollars a month..no matter what kind of a house you run. He has TVs, computers, fans, appliances, water pumps, A/C units and even with guests there for weeks on end, he pays around RD$3500 with A/C units on all the time!!

So as soon as one of the properties goes, I am going solar and will call up your expertise!!

HB

Thanks for your support HB. When you are ready, I'd be more then pleased to help and make sure Windeguy is with us. Your son had better be on sight too so WE can learn.

 

[Ringo]

I believe the on line solar calculator that I used to generate the monthly output would take into account the losses in the charge controller/battery/inverter systems. If it doesn't then it would be completely misleading potential customers.

I do agree that 6 hours of production on average daily is more reasonable. I mentioned that 8 hours was optimistic. That would reduce the solar panels contribution by about 25% from what I calculated. That would mean Ringo's 8 panels are probably producing about 250 KWH monthly on average which is worth about $RD 2,715 a month in savings.

We start seeing solar power at around 7:30AM; .5 amps. and until around 6PM. About 8 KWh per day. Of course this will decrease in winter.

 

[Ringo]

I did say the PEAK output for the solar panels above.

?Peak 8 solar panels: Peak watts 210. Peak volts 28.7 Peak amps 7.32 EACH. (That is NOT what you will get.) ?. And I have said that the most I have seen in about 25 amps. (27 is the highest I've seen) from all 8 panels with about 8KWh per day. This is the OUTPUT from the controller to the batteries.

The input FROM the panels to the controller is much different from the usable output to the batteries.

So here is my 4:00 PM readings under partly cloudy skys for most of the day.

Edenorte meter: .06 amps +1KWh in the last 3 hours.
(one 7 watt light on and lower drawer of wine cooler.) This appears fine. It is when I see 3 to 7KWh ?pop-ups? for the same time of day that I get pizzzed and lost.

Peak X 8 = 29.6 volts 58.62 amps.
Controller INPUT: 78.2 volts 7.1 amps.
Controller OUTPUT: 48.7 volts 11.2 amps. 5.9KWh produced this day at this time.
Inverter meters: 48.2 volts 3 amps load. (8.2 +- going to charging)

So I'm gaining again for today with Edenorte. Total as of 4PM is 15KWh's. (If I gain 1KWh per day, what will be my average Kwh be per day in 6 months?)

I also looked up my pool pump. It is rated @ 1.1KWh... not 1.5. I know it is not much of a difference until you add and multiply. (about 60KWh per month?)

Thanks people. I love to see you work

 

[whirleybird]

Wow! you really are very clever, well done!

 

[william webster]

WB, if you can decipher all of that - more power to you










(pun intended)

 

[Ringo]

Wow! you really are very clever, well done!

Hi W.B. Nice to hear from you and I'm not THAT clever. I'm glad that Olly was able to help you out with Batts. Good job.

I guess that I have had enough of being on the GRINGO PAY EDENORTE system.

I am also very pleased to have Windeguy, W.W. and others give advice and information. The exchanges have been rewarding in many ways.

Another goal is to be able to provide REAL life facts and figures for others that may have questions about the power in the D.R. and solar. I'm looking for answers, though I think I already have them, but solutions and advice from myself and some very good people that share, advise, learn and perhaps even solve could help others. Solar was NOT an option when I designed and set up my place several years ago. Now I look at is a solution to a long going nasty problem.

Now solar would be my only power if I started to design and build today.

Have a good night everyone.

 

[MJSantoDomingo]

Ringo - you say that solar would be your only power now if you did a design build today.
I am an admitted beginner, trying to understand solar for residential use - especially if I got a house that I wanted to put in solar. I'll admit that I would love to not deal with the electric company.
I probably would stay in the Santo Domingo area - in that matters.
I know I can go to someone to get a real estimate and quote. I am only looking for a better understanding of what is really possible nowadays - and "ballpark" pricing of full systems (panels, controllers, cables, batteries, installation) - and a basic understanding of what it could handle - for example, if I had a 3/4 bedroom house, no pool, but did want to use ACs at night for sleeping... etc.
Can those of you who have some experience please give a simple 101 explanation of solar in the DR today?
When I go to websites - it does not help me enough (or I should say, I do not know enough) to be able to translate the application to the DR.

 

[windeguy]

Ringo - you say that solar would be your only power now if you did a design build today.
I am an admitted beginner, trying to understand solar for residential use - especially if I got a house that I wanted to put in solar. I'll admit that I would love to not deal with the electric company.
I probably would stay in the Santo Domingo area - in that matters.
I know I can go to someone to get a real estimate and quote. I am only looking for a better understanding of what is really possible nowadays - and "ballpark" pricing of full systems (panels, controllers, cables, batteries, installation) - and a basic understanding of what it could handle - for example, if I had a 3/4 bedroom house, no pool, but did want to use ACs at night for sleeping... etc.
Can those of you who have some experience please give a simple 101 explanation of solar in the DR today?
When I go to websites - it does not help me enough (or I should say, I do not know enough) to be able to translate the application to the DR.

That would be difficult to do in the context of this thread. If you are interested in using air conditioning from such a system, the entire system will need to be much larger than otherwise. A good contact would actually be HillBilly's son. It is his business to know such answers.

Other things to keep in mind is do you have enough space to have 20 or more solar panels? Would they be safe where you live?

 

[william webster]

Ringo - you say that solar would be your only power now if you did a design build today.
I am an admitted beginner, trying to understand solar for residential use - especially if I got a house that I wanted to put in solar. I'll admit that I would love to not deal with the electric company.
I probably would stay in the Santo Domingo area - in that matters.
I know I can go to someone to get a real estimate and quote. I am only looking for a better understanding of what is really possible nowadays - and "ballpark" pricing of full systems (panels, controllers, cables, batteries, installation) - and a basic understanding of what it could handle - for example, if I had a 3/4 bedroom house, no pool, but did want to use ACs at night for sleeping... etc.
Can those of you who have some experience please give a simple 101 explanation of solar in the DR today?
When I go to websites - it does not help me enough (or I should say, I do not know enough) to be able to translate the application to the DR.

About $40.... maybe a bit less but try not to skimp.. def, not $30

Let others chime in

 

[yapask1]

Ringo - you say that solar would be your only power now if you did a design build today.
I am an admitted beginner, trying to understand solar for residential use - especially if I got a house that I wanted to put in solar. I'll admit that I would love to not deal with the electric company.
I probably would stay in the Santo Domingo area - in that matters.
I know I can go to someone to get a real estimate and quote. I am only looking for a better understanding of what is really possible nowadays - and "ballpark" pricing of full systems (panels, controllers, cables, batteries, installation) - and a basic understanding of what it could handle - for example, if I had a 3/4 bedroom house, no pool, but did want to use ACs at night for sleeping... etc.
Can those of you who have some experience please give a simple 101 explanation of solar in the DR today?
When I go to websites - it does not help me enough (or I should say, I do not know enough) to be able to translate the application to the DR.

As a guide a 200 - 230 watt solar panel is going to produce about 1 kW a day if the sun shines on an average day in the DR.

2 batteries will be needed for each 2 panels.

The panels retail at about $500 and batteries $100 each.

The controller is cheap - about $200 - $500 and can handle quite a few panels.

The invertor can range from $100 to $400.

Panel mounting costs vary. The ideal situation is sloping roof south facing. Simple mounting frames or brackets can be made from Dexion or angle aluminium at low cost per panel say $50 a panel.

Energy consumption for a household:

Small fridge 1 kwh per day.

Eco fan on continuously 0.3 kwh per day.

Ceiling fan on 5 hours a day 1.0 kwh per day

20 inch modern tv LED/LCD on 6 hours a day 0.3 kwh a day

laptop on 6 hours a day 0.1 kwh per day.

ultra efficient light bulbs on 8 hours a day 0.064 kwh a day.

AC on 1 hour day to cool insulated bedroom 1.0 kwh per day.

So dwelling with fridge, TV, ceiling fan , laptop, 5 light bulbs, AC on 1 hour is about 4 kwh per day allowing for rice cooker, washing machine etc. occasionally.

4 panels, 4 batteries, kit allowing for wire, installation etc. $3,500 - $4,500 for this consumption. Panels in the US retail at $200 - $300 so it may be possible there are cheaper panels in the DR. Also arrange direct import.

Electricity costs in DR range up to 19 pesos a unit.




Note that on cloudy days, fairly seldom in the DR, electricity from electric board will still be necessary. Or a small generator used. If you wish for supply on cloudy days stored from sunny days the number of panels and batteries will go up. But allowing for 3 cloudy days a month elec bill will be for 12 or so kwh.

yapask1

 

[Olly]

Ringo,
You talked about "Spiking up to X kW" when you were looking at the Edenorte Meter and this carries on the discussion of where the XXXX kWh goes.

On one location I asked the people concerned to keep an hourly note of the meter consumption without changing what they used . This they did even through the night as they were having very high bills. It showed and increased consumption through the night but increase was always in 4 kW blocks which lasted less than an hour. There was also a peak about 8-9 am in the morning in the same 4 kW blocks.
This narrowed it down to - 1) something that came on at night regularly for less than an hour, 2) something that used a consistent 4 kW. It pointed to the only items on the property that had this characteristic - Solar Water heaters which have a back up immersion heater in them.
What I am really saying is that by plotting the meter consumption over say a day on an hourly basis may give you a clue as to what is causing the problem.

If for instance it is weather effected , after rain high but after dry spell lower them it points to feeders.

Ringo I am sure you have done all this but it sometime is worth looking at differently to get some more clues.

There are many different possibilities but most of them have some characteristic that can give you additional clues!

Olly and the Team

 

[Ringo]

Ringo,
You talked about "Spiking up to X kW" when you were looking at the Edenorte Meter and this carries on the discussion of where the XXXX kWh goes.

On one location I asked the people concerned to keep an hourly note of the meter consumption without changing what they used . This they did even through the night as they were having very high bills. It showed and increased consumption through the night but increase was always in 4 kW blocks which lasted less than an hour. There was also a peak about 8-9 am in the morning in the same 4 kW blocks.
This narrowed it down to - 1) something that came on at night regularly for less than an hour, 2) something that used a consistent 4 kW. It pointed to the only items on the property that had this characteristic - Solar Water heaters which have a back up immersion heater in them.
What I am really saying is that by plotting the meter consumption over say a day on an hourly basis may give you a clue as to what is causing the problem.

If for instance it is weather effected , after rain high but after dry spell lower them it points to feeders.

Ringo I am sure you have done all this but it sometime is worth looking at differently to get some more clues.

There are many different possibilities but most of them have some characteristic that can give you additional clues!

Olly and the Team

Good info Olly and should be a thought about solar hot water heaters. They are not totally solar but spikes of 4KWh for hot water sounds like a lot. Did you try shutting off the breaker to confirm that it was/is your heaters? Add a timer?

And though I have been working on this for years and THINK I have looked at and done everything I can, I'm sure that there is always more to learn and I hope that our combined information will help others.

As I have said before; we only use Edenorte for the pool pump and one small wine cooler drawer. And WE HAVE shut off the breaker to both leaving the cooler off for several days. We even shut off Edenorte at our main gen. transfer switch that leaves power to the meter but does not enter our place. STILL have spikes show up, not always the same amounts, and as I mentioned above, our daily KWh's are rising.

I had mentioned that the house down from us has been paying around D.R. $64,000. per month. (makes our 20K look small lol) About the same size house and stuff BUT the place is only used every other weekend at the most. He has been working with an Atty, that happens to be ours too. He is coming down today so we will be meeting. He did get a court order to lock-up his meter so that NO ONE could change or tamper with it while his case is in the works.

 

[windeguy]

Have you noticed how long the current spikes last?

Since these are intelligent meters, Edenorte should be able to supply you with a power usage profile so you can have a better idea on when to look.

From the outside looking in, either the meters are defective/installed incorrectly, or there really is an as yet undetermined power drain. Since your bills were exorbitantly high before the new meters were installed, I am going with an as yet undetermined power drain.

And have your lawyer look into if someone at the Edenorte office can reprogram your meter remotely, or if they can just read it. If they can change the meter reading or anything about how it measures usage, then there is a whole other potential issue.