- Thread starter Chirimoya
- Start date
Cubana flight in SDQ emergency landing
I have been on that flight Santo Domingo Havana 5 times and I felt uncomfortable every time. Next time I go to Havana from Santo Domingo I will fly with Copa via Panama thats for sure.
Hey Everyone!
Sometime ago I have posted reply to this thread, it never showed – have no clue why. I am former Polish Airlines “LOT” employee and believe I know exactly what have happened to Chhrimoya’s plane.
Link below explains all in details (page was made by me):
Atribute to flights LO-5055 and LO-007
PS.
I am Polish and found this forum only by accident while Googling materials about IL-62s - however couldn't stop myself from adding few words. Detailed explanation of engine failure of light LO-007 is in my opinion exactly what have happened here. Its hard to say why result is different than it was in case flight 007. Perhaps luckily turbines pieces exploded not in engine and vital parts of fuselage direction (which pictures of engines and You Tube Video on my page seems to suggest). Perhaps crew was able to shut engines in time, and turbine disintegrated as engine was already slowing down,…
Sometime ago I have posted reply to this thread, it never showed – have no clue why. I am former Polish Airlines “LOT” employee and believe I know exactly what have happened to Chhrimoya’s plane.
Link below explains all in details (page was made by me):
Atribute to flights LO-5055 and LO-007
PS.
I am Polish and found this forum only by accident while Googling materials about IL-62s - however couldn't stop myself from adding few words. Detailed explanation of engine failure of light LO-007 is in my opinion exactly what have happened here. Its hard to say why result is different than it was in case flight 007. Perhaps luckily turbines pieces exploded not in engine and vital parts of fuselage direction (which pictures of engines and You Tube Video on my page seems to suggest). Perhaps crew was able to shut engines in time, and turbine disintegrated as engine was already slowing down,…
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VIDEO: Picture Says A Thousand Words.
Polish TV documentary (transmitted in Polish TV) dedicated to flight 5055 (Video uploaded to YouTube) with English captioning done by me.
http://www.youtube.com/v/wUE1MwrEUpY - situation in Poland. Start of plane.
http://www.youtube.com/v/TsFfjTW_BQc - account of failure
http://www.youtube.com/v/0cuXKDhuYGY - final moments
http://www.youtube.com/v/OvG9NkoHmjE - investigation, causes of failure
If you?re not Polish, first part may feel bit boring.
There is also a additional documentary dedicated to flight 007, as well part 2 documentary dedicated to flight 5055 - which I didn't translated (so far).
If you flying IL-62 as a pilot or passenger MAKE SURE YOU WATCHED PART 4 ?CAUSES OF FAILURE?.
Really wouldn’t like to spam this thread with my posts, however since I know lots of people are still visiting my links after finding it in this thread (have page visit statistics which show it), because old post cannot be edited (to make changes), as well because I killed some previously given links - one more time:
LINKS TO POLISH TV DOCUMENTARY ABOUT FLIGHT 5055 DISASTER (English captioning done by me)
http://www.youtube.com/v/gA2VreFdjuA - situation in Poland. Start of plane (might feel bit boring if you not Polish)
http://www.youtube.com/v/bAfUjey547Q - - account of failure
http://www.youtube.com/v/oSkRARVVTQU - final moments
http://www.youtube.com/v/2hbVni9zPNA - - investigation, causes of failure
DOCUMENTARY PART 2 (newly added)
http://www.youtube.com/v/vglneVqpBBw - flight commented again by two LOT captains
http://www.youtube.com/v/wCmlEKatOgU - Air Force pilots accounts, causes of disaster
http://www.youtube.com/v/OCnYuX5mBwY - unexplained second explosion and in later part - causes of disaster and denial of fault by manufacturer
http://www.youtube.com/v/AqTmqel-7RU&hl=en&fs=1 – journalist’s accounts, missing stewardess
Again if you or your loved ones fly on IL-62, if you are passenger, pilot or airline decision maker, MAKE SURE you have watched parts 2.3, 2.2 and 1.4
What video will show is that IL-62M has engine defect causing them to explode – known for at lest over 20 years now (possibly longer). There were two Polish Airlines IL-62M which crashed in 80-ties (as well number of other before and after throughout the world) - both planes crashed for the same reason. Russian (now and Soviet than) manufacturer continuously denies its fault in disasters, even its actions shows that they are aware of their engine’s fault.
What however I find personally shocking, is that it seems engine defects were never fixed to satisfaction, perhaps not at all, despise that their defects are known for so long and that they have caused so painful loss of life!
In my opinion account given in this thread by cherimoya and gapaliz on YouTube (see link below) is consistent with what happened on flight 007 and 5055 20 years earlier in Poland.
YouTube movie of what I assume (comments are in Spanish) is after flight inspection done by either ground technician or crew member of flight mentioned in this thread:
YouTube - IL-62 EN SANTO DOMINGO (newly added)
PS.
I added crew records, as well translation to transcripts of entire record of cockpit voice recorder and radio communication of flight 5055. Direct link to transcript here:
FULL TRANSLATION OF ENTIRE RADIO ATC COMMUNICATION OF FLIGHT 5055 PLUS RECORDS OF VOICE RECORDERS FROM COCKPIT. (newly added)
Main tribute and flight account page here:
tribute
LINKS TO POLISH TV DOCUMENTARY ABOUT FLIGHT 5055 DISASTER (English captioning done by me)
http://www.youtube.com/v/gA2VreFdjuA - situation in Poland. Start of plane (might feel bit boring if you not Polish)
http://www.youtube.com/v/bAfUjey547Q - - account of failure
http://www.youtube.com/v/oSkRARVVTQU - final moments
http://www.youtube.com/v/2hbVni9zPNA - - investigation, causes of failure
DOCUMENTARY PART 2 (newly added)
http://www.youtube.com/v/vglneVqpBBw - flight commented again by two LOT captains
http://www.youtube.com/v/wCmlEKatOgU - Air Force pilots accounts, causes of disaster
http://www.youtube.com/v/OCnYuX5mBwY - unexplained second explosion and in later part - causes of disaster and denial of fault by manufacturer
http://www.youtube.com/v/AqTmqel-7RU&hl=en&fs=1 – journalist’s accounts, missing stewardess
Again if you or your loved ones fly on IL-62, if you are passenger, pilot or airline decision maker, MAKE SURE you have watched parts 2.3, 2.2 and 1.4
What video will show is that IL-62M has engine defect causing them to explode – known for at lest over 20 years now (possibly longer). There were two Polish Airlines IL-62M which crashed in 80-ties (as well number of other before and after throughout the world) - both planes crashed for the same reason. Russian (now and Soviet than) manufacturer continuously denies its fault in disasters, even its actions shows that they are aware of their engine’s fault.
What however I find personally shocking, is that it seems engine defects were never fixed to satisfaction, perhaps not at all, despise that their defects are known for so long and that they have caused so painful loss of life!
In my opinion account given in this thread by cherimoya and gapaliz on YouTube (see link below) is consistent with what happened on flight 007 and 5055 20 years earlier in Poland.
YouTube movie of what I assume (comments are in Spanish) is after flight inspection done by either ground technician or crew member of flight mentioned in this thread:
YouTube - IL-62 EN SANTO DOMINGO (newly added)
PS.
I added crew records, as well translation to transcripts of entire record of cockpit voice recorder and radio communication of flight 5055. Direct link to transcript here:
FULL TRANSLATION OF ENTIRE RADIO ATC COMMUNICATION OF FLIGHT 5055 PLUS RECORDS OF VOICE RECORDERS FROM COCKPIT. (newly added)
Main tribute and flight account page here:
tribute
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Skippy1 you are wrong here
Sorry, Skippy1 but I would not agree with you on this.
Just look at the fact.
Comparable airplanes to the Russian Ilyushin-62 are Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8. You can check the accident statistics on these three planes to find find out which plane is safer to fly. Statistics shows that the Ilyushin 62 is more safer than DC-8 and Boeing 707 taken alltogether.
Boeing 707 had been involved in 56 crashes: Accident Database: By Manufacturer/Type > 707
Douglas DC8 had been involved in 139 incidents, including 83 hull-loss accidents, with 2,256 fatalities: Douglas DC-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Aircraft type index > DC-8 > DC-8 Statistics
The Russian Ilyushin-62 had been involved in 12 crashes: Accident Database: Aircraft Crash Details > Ilyushin IL-62
You can check the accident statistics on many Russian commercial airplanes and compare them with Boeing. You will see that Boeing airplanes had been involved in more accidents (with fatalities) than the Russian's.
Sorry, Skippy1 but I would not agree with you on this.
Just look at the fact.
Comparable airplanes to the Russian Ilyushin-62 are Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8. You can check the accident statistics on these three planes to find find out which plane is safer to fly. Statistics shows that the Ilyushin 62 is more safer than DC-8 and Boeing 707 taken alltogether.
Boeing 707 had been involved in 56 crashes: Accident Database: By Manufacturer/Type > 707
Douglas DC8 had been involved in 139 incidents, including 83 hull-loss accidents, with 2,256 fatalities: Douglas DC-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Aircraft type index > DC-8 > DC-8 Statistics
The Russian Ilyushin-62 had been involved in 12 crashes: Accident Database: Aircraft Crash Details > Ilyushin IL-62
You can check the accident statistics on many Russian commercial airplanes and compare them with Boeing. You will see that Boeing airplanes had been involved in more accidents (with fatalities) than the Russian's.
OK, but how many russian crashes were actually reported? Do you really think that russian stats would be accurate? Maybe from 1999 to present they MIGHT be, but before then?
In the soviet times the aircraft crashes were not available to public but it does not mean they were not reported or presented for pilots and technical personell to discuss the reasons of the crash in order to take measures to prevent them from happenning in the future. As soon as a crash occurred the pilots and ground personell were informed about that. The crash was entered into a database. In other words, the only defference between the Soviets and the West in this respect was that the crashes were not allowed in the news media. Even though, you know, it was hard to hide a crash where hundreds of people died. The knews about crashes were spreading across the country by the word of mouth and was not a secret to anyone.
After the collapse of the Communists all crashes in the Russian accidents database were open to the Russian and international public. This information now can be found on many websites which provide this sort of information.
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Really wouldn?t like to make impression I?m hostile and thanks Scott for comments, however we all do respect, can you really vouch for it, that public was really informed about all crashes instead of only being told it was? Indeed lots of information was freed, especially during Gorbachev ?Perstroika?, still in many respects to some information it seems Russian government never completely came on clear.
What about Soloviev D-30KU engine? Would you be able to quote any official Russian source about problem in those engines? I checked crash records from AirDisaster.com site. There are large numbers of Aeroflot crashes where page says ?information unavailable?.
According to Polish Disaster commission member account of colonel Milkiewicz, after publicizing report and receiving response from Russia, problem was discussed on highest government level in Moscow (between USSR and Polish People Republic than), where in very ?manly discussion? Polish part was ?out voted?. Colonel was present on meeting (as member of commission which produced report) and released afterwards from his function of Chief Engineer of Polish Air Force. About his release he learned from mouth of soviet officer. Meeting must happen in 1987/1988.
I checked Soloviev page on Internet. There is no record of ?D-30KU? in its records at all, as if it never existed (yet that?s exactly what today?s IL-62M use). There is lots of information and ?superb achievements of Russian technology?, about engines used on Mig-31, there is record about D-30 which were installed on TU-134 BEFORE IL-62M ? however none about D-30KU.
I also, with all do respect, not completely agree with you in regard of power of spreading news, despise informational embargo. I know that during numerous strikes and street demonstration of 40 years of existence of Polish People Republic, where often 10 of thousands of people were involved, even to some degree news about them spread through unofficial means, at the same time there were also huge bodies of people in nation TOTALLY unaware ANYTHING happened.
I can easily see as some crashes which might happen in some remote republics and Syberia could have been easily blocked from public knowledge ? even today. Another thing is that unreliability or falsifying information is often not only result of state policy, but also because of local apparatchiks and even level workers involved, scared about their careers, which have vital interest for true to never see daylight.
Soloviev factory in today Russia has vital interest about not admitting and falsifying information ? due to possibility of civil litigation in regard to past and future crashes of IL-62 which still flies.
What really angry me however is not that much really are they admitting it or not, but that they are treating human life cheap. That even after 20 years of knowledge of defects they are still allowing people to fly on unsafe planes.
What about Soloviev D-30KU engine? Would you be able to quote any official Russian source about problem in those engines? I checked crash records from AirDisaster.com site. There are large numbers of Aeroflot crashes where page says ?information unavailable?.
According to Polish Disaster commission member account of colonel Milkiewicz, after publicizing report and receiving response from Russia, problem was discussed on highest government level in Moscow (between USSR and Polish People Republic than), where in very ?manly discussion? Polish part was ?out voted?. Colonel was present on meeting (as member of commission which produced report) and released afterwards from his function of Chief Engineer of Polish Air Force. About his release he learned from mouth of soviet officer. Meeting must happen in 1987/1988.
I checked Soloviev page on Internet. There is no record of ?D-30KU? in its records at all, as if it never existed (yet that?s exactly what today?s IL-62M use). There is lots of information and ?superb achievements of Russian technology?, about engines used on Mig-31, there is record about D-30 which were installed on TU-134 BEFORE IL-62M ? however none about D-30KU.
I also, with all do respect, not completely agree with you in regard of power of spreading news, despise informational embargo. I know that during numerous strikes and street demonstration of 40 years of existence of Polish People Republic, where often 10 of thousands of people were involved, even to some degree news about them spread through unofficial means, at the same time there were also huge bodies of people in nation TOTALLY unaware ANYTHING happened.
I can easily see as some crashes which might happen in some remote republics and Syberia could have been easily blocked from public knowledge ? even today. Another thing is that unreliability or falsifying information is often not only result of state policy, but also because of local apparatchiks and even level workers involved, scared about their careers, which have vital interest for true to never see daylight.
Soloviev factory in today Russia has vital interest about not admitting and falsifying information ? due to possibility of civil litigation in regard to past and future crashes of IL-62 which still flies.
What really angry me however is not that much really are they admitting it or not, but that they are treating human life cheap. That even after 20 years of knowledge of defects they are still allowing people to fly on unsafe planes.
[QUOTE..................can you really vouch for it, that public was really informed about all crashes instead of only being told it was?
QUOTE]
Yes I do, I can vouch for it. It was aviation community (pilots, maintenance engineers etc.) and aircraft/engine manufacturers that were informed about crashes in the first place. They had also been informed about any emergency situation that could have caused one. Nothing had been hidden from them. All crashes had been reported and entered into a special database. Anyone in aviation community had access to that information without any problem.
At the same time it was the government policy to not allow this kind of info in the news. You could not find this sort of information on TV or in newspapers. It was unnecessary, the government thought, for public to know about tragic events in order to prevent unnecessary agitation and stress among general population. You may agree or disagree but that was their policy at the time.
Now I hope you can see the difference between NOT REPORTING AT ALL and NOT REPORTING to those who were thought to be unable to change anything (general public). The priority was made to reporting to those who were really involved and should know about the crashes in the first place and who can change things – pilots mechanics, manufacturers.
QUOTE]
Yes I do, I can vouch for it. It was aviation community (pilots, maintenance engineers etc.) and aircraft/engine manufacturers that were informed about crashes in the first place. They had also been informed about any emergency situation that could have caused one. Nothing had been hidden from them. All crashes had been reported and entered into a special database. Anyone in aviation community had access to that information without any problem.
At the same time it was the government policy to not allow this kind of info in the news. You could not find this sort of information on TV or in newspapers. It was unnecessary, the government thought, for public to know about tragic events in order to prevent unnecessary agitation and stress among general population. You may agree or disagree but that was their policy at the time.
Now I hope you can see the difference between NOT REPORTING AT ALL and NOT REPORTING to those who were thought to be unable to change anything (general public). The priority was made to reporting to those who were really involved and should know about the crashes in the first place and who can change things – pilots mechanics, manufacturers.
Quote:
“What about Soloviev D-30KU engine? Would you be able to quote any official Russian source about problem in those engines?”
First of all, problems can arise in any engine and aircraft whether it is Russian Ilyushin, Boeing or Airbus. There are only 4 countries manufacturing engines for big airliners – Russia, France, British and the USA. The engine manufactures in these countries had problems with the engines at some time. Unfortunately, some of them led to the deaths of people. Aircraft manufacturers such as Boeing, Airbus did not avoid deadly mistakes in aircraft manufacturing either. Even now the latest 5th, 6th generation Boeing airplanes have problems and manufacturing defects. Airbus is not an exception. Just do some research and find out for yourself. I need to note here that all these problems and defects can be and are corrected by the manufacturer. The point is as long as people are building and manufacturing they will always make mistakes. There will always be pilots errors as well.
As for your D-30KU engine question I will tell you that its been installed on Ilyushin 62 airliner which is still flying and this may be my answer to your question about quoting Russian source about problems with the engine.
The Russian Ilyushin 62 has shown the best safety record - 12 crashes in comparison with the comparable airliners such as Boeing 707 - 56 crashes - and Douglas DC8 - 139 crashes.
This engine also was installed on Tupolev-154 at some time but later was replaced by less noisy and more economical D-30/154 engine. Soloviev's engines are one of the best in Russia and there is nothing to hide about them.
I think in USSR government always felt that for public to know all the truth was unnecessary or actually even fearful. In order to “save” nation from harm the truth could cause them, government “felt compelled” to lie to it – of course for nation’s own good.
Essence of discussion was not “can problems in plane engines arise” (we all know it can in any plane), but about knowingly not fixing defects known for 27 years, knowingly endangering peoples lives and denying very existence of defects. Neither Airbus not Boeing were ever accused of similar thing to my knowledge.
Soloviev home page has quite big section dedicated to history, as well its “superb achievements” (Russian site translated by Google translator to English):
Translated version of http://www.avid.ru/
Note that at the right bottom there is search box allowing searching site. Try entering “D-30KU”.
Boeing 707 was introduced to service 12 years before IL-62, DC-8 about 8 years before. According to Wikipedia there was total 1011 Boeing 707 produced. Numbers for IL-62 and DC-8s are not stated however my personal sense is it probably in range of 1 to 10 of each western plane versus Ilyushin. Out of Boeing 707 crashes reasons which I checked through AirDisaster.Com only about half was related to technical problems (rest are crew faults, bombs, weather etc) – out of which only handful could be possibly related (and don't have to) to some sort of manufacturer defects. Taking into account disproportions between length of time of operation and presumably huge disproportion in numbers of planes in service, as well above all how accurate and truthful numbers and causes of crashes of IL-62s are – comparison doesn’t look great for IL-62 at all.
While in service in Polish Airlines alone (for about 15 years) I know that there were two fatal crashes, as well (only of those I know for sure – possibly more) two emergency landings plus one additional shut down engine in the air incident on TU-154 (which used exactly same engine) – ALL FOR THE SAME REASON. Knowing this gives me approximate sense what real numbers of IL-62 crashes and incidents are.
According to you. According to Polish Government Disaster Commission their very existence was denied. Not fixing the original engine defect WAS THE ACTUAL CAUSE of second crash in Poland.
Link of Polish documentary stating this directly by mouth of commission member – Chief Engineer of Polish Air Force colonel Milkiewicz (start watching from: 2 minute 35 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/v/OCnYuX5mBwY (Black Serial part 2.3)
By reading account given at the begging of this thread, as well watching YouTube link below it appears that very same engine defect was actually never fixed, even today as we speak:
YouTube - IL-62 EN SANTO DOMINGO
Defects which were fixed were fixed in engines of “special purpose” - as those given to government planes and highest communist party members. Account of prof. Martyniak (also commission member) - start watching from 1 minute 50 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/v/2hbVni9zPNA (Black Serial part 1.4)
Well, I guess you ask everyone to simply believe your word. With all do respect I have different opinion. Lets readers decide what opinion they want to have.
PS.
On done by me tribute page I added simplified technical explanation what exactly happened in engines and caused both disasters in Poland:
tribute
There is however wonderful computer animation which explains same, waaaay better and allows everyone (even not technically literate) to understand all. I simplified explanation on my page because I was aware that giving all detail will not do much, except make lots of people eyes cross. Animation is done by Polish Discovery channel and is part of 45 minute cockpit dramatization of flight 5055, giving account of flight from cockpit, based on actual records from black box. I’m in process of translating it and adding English caption to it and will upload it on YouTube and post link in this tread soon I finish.
For now first three parts:
http://www.youtube.com/v/C-_YKCear0s
http://www.youtube.com/v/ll8GqwCiiTM&hl=en&fs=1
http://www.youtube.com/v/DtVgQW7rMBE
Correction
AFTER EDIT:
Why reading my own post I realized I accidentally misspoke in my previous post:
I said that while working in Polish Airlines there was two crashes, two emergency landings and one incident relating to TU-154 ? only of those I know for sure. What it should say is: there was two emergency landing out of which one was relating to TU-154. I know only for sure about two emergency landings relating to problems in Soloviev D-30KU engines, besides two crashes.
AFTER EDIT:
Why reading my own post I realized I accidentally misspoke in my previous post:
I said that while working in Polish Airlines there was two crashes, two emergency landings and one incident relating to TU-154 ? only of those I know for sure. What it should say is: there was two emergency landing out of which one was relating to TU-154. I know only for sure about two emergency landings relating to problems in Soloviev D-30KU engines, besides two crashes.
As promised before - links to all dramatization videos. In order to display video in bigger format, I used to give links to ?embedded video?. However since YouTube seems to have habit of killing some of embedded links, new links are to web pages instead. To see video in full screen mode click icon as on picture below:
ImageShack - Hosting :: 64184494cw2.jpg
YouTube ?Flight 5055?
1. YouTube - Flight 5055 part1 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
2. YouTube - Flight 5055 part2 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
3. YouTube - Flight 5055 part3 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
4. YouTube - Flight 5055 part4 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
5. YouTube - Flight 5055 part5 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
6. YouTube - Flight 5055 part6 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
7. YouTube - Flight 5055 part7 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
8. YouTube - Flight 5055 part8 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
Some links which I gave previously stopped working again ? therefore one more time:
YouTube ?Black Serial? part 1
1.1 YouTube - Black serial-1.1 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.2 YouTube - Black serial-1.2 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.3 YouTube - Black serial-1.3 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.4 YouTube - Black serial- part 1.4 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English cap
YouTube ?Black Serial? part 2.
2.1 YouTube - Black serial-2.1 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.2 YouTube - Black serial-2.2 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.3 YouTube - Black serial-2.3 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.4 YouTube - Black serial-2.4. tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
ImageShack - Hosting :: 64184494cw2.jpg
YouTube ?Flight 5055?
1. YouTube - Flight 5055 part1 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
2. YouTube - Flight 5055 part2 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
3. YouTube - Flight 5055 part3 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
4. YouTube - Flight 5055 part4 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
5. YouTube - Flight 5055 part5 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
6. YouTube - Flight 5055 part6 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
7. YouTube - Flight 5055 part7 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
8. YouTube - Flight 5055 part8 dramatization of Kabaty disaster
Some links which I gave previously stopped working again ? therefore one more time:
YouTube ?Black Serial? part 1
1.1 YouTube - Black serial-1.1 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.2 YouTube - Black serial-1.2 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.3 YouTube - Black serial-1.3 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
1.4 YouTube - Black serial- part 1.4 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English cap
YouTube ?Black Serial? part 2.
2.1 YouTube - Black serial-2.1 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.2 YouTube - Black serial-2.2 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.3 YouTube - Black serial-2.3 - tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
2.4 YouTube - Black serial-2.4. tragedy of flight 5055 (English caption)
Very interesting conspiracy theory! By the way, do you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job? Or, that the US government is hiding aliens in the area 53?
I am amazed at how conspiracy theorists always think that they know more than the others about some things.
In case you are not a conspiracy theorist, I will tell you - youtube is not a relible sourse of information.
I am amazed at how conspiracy theorists always think that they know more than the others about some things.
In case you are not a conspiracy theorist, I will tell you - youtube is not a relible sourse of information.
TWA Flight 800 12th Anniversary and Still No Cause?
Sean01,
How about other air disasters?
How about Boeing 747 TWA Flight 800 12th Anniversary and Still No Cause?
here is the link:
TWA Flight 800 12th Anniversary and Still No Cause
It is really bad to blame the government, pilots, manufacturers, mechanics or anyone who is involved for crashes. Sometimes bad thing happen. Sometimes happens something that nobody wants to happen. It is life and we are people and as practice shows we all make mistakes. If you are afraid of flying do not fly at all. I cannot belive that you are, or were, in aviation. No one who works in aviation and knows how risky and important job is there would bring this topic.
My advise to you - don't fly on Being 747 and on Ilyushin 62. Otherwise you may get the heart attack from fear.
Sean01,
How about other air disasters?
How about Boeing 747 TWA Flight 800 12th Anniversary and Still No Cause?
here is the link:
TWA Flight 800 12th Anniversary and Still No Cause
It is really bad to blame the government, pilots, manufacturers, mechanics or anyone who is involved for crashes. Sometimes bad thing happen. Sometimes happens something that nobody wants to happen. It is life and we are people and as practice shows we all make mistakes. If you are afraid of flying do not fly at all. I cannot belive that you are, or were, in aviation. No one who works in aviation and knows how risky and important job is there would bring this topic.
My advise to you - don't fly on Being 747 and on Ilyushin 62. Otherwise you may get the heart attack from fear.
I know that aviation is dangerous, often requires risking life and sometimes people agrees on their free will to put themselves at risk. When you talking about airline passengers however, those are usually not people who look for sacrifice but who simply want to get to their destination in one piece, unharmed.
I also repetitiously agreed with fact that accidents in aviation do happens. Despise repeating it numerous times you still repeating same argument and I don?t know to make it any clearer any more.
In case of IL-62 engine problems, I feel we are not talking about, by any means, about any risk which is normally associated with commercial travel, normal use, bad luck or anything of that sort.
When engine defects occurs repeatedly, repeatedly cost human life, yet they occurs over and over, manufacturer denies its fault, government falsifies crash statistics while at the same time both publicly boost about their own superiority, finally over 20 years passes and defects are never fixed. For me this is not just an accident, but really absolutely ethically unacceptable behavior of treating passengers without any regard to their lives.
I mean I can understand that even when all fact would be known, its quite possible many people would and will, willfully agree to take risks for number of reasons. Some might feel sentiment to the plane, some may have economic reasons, while some might be forced to fly them simply because they have no other choice. Whatever anybody?s willful decision or opinion I can respect them all.
At the same time I utterly disagree, that lying about own faults or creating campaign of deception is justifiable by any means.
What about those people who have choices and who don?t want to risk their lives? I feel people have right to make such decision on their own, not have them made for them. If they agree to take risks, like plane, feel sentiment to it, I have absolutely no problem with it.
Arguments that information is not begin published to ?not upset people?, sounds to me as nothing short of typical, communist style, government BS, who tries to hides inconvenient to it truths, scare that aware of all facts people might finally get tired and angry enough, to kick them in their honorable butts hard enough, that they fall from their warm government chairs. Its error however to confuse someone?s rationalization of lies with truth.
I have to objectively agree, that I do not KNOW, that Russia still hides statistics of its own crashes. Anybody who doesn?t have proofs which are clear and raise no doubts whatsoever, in way direction or another simply can?t say it ?knows?. At the same time I have to say I strongly believe that?s exactly what takes place.
What I mentioned before already, there was number of incidents which happened in Poland. After second disaster Polish technical services developed technological means of early detecting engine problems, which resulted in finding bad engines on 6 planes out of 7 they had. Manufacturer claimed engine had no faults and all damage to it happened in result of crash, despise fact that engine turbine pieces were found over 200 miles away from disaster site, in place where plane failure in the air happened. All this happened already in times of ?Glasnost? and ?Pestroika? ? which doesn?t mean I feel that was anything wrong with it (quite contrary I feel enormous respect to president Gorbachev), but simply means that ?Perestroika? itself doesn?t mean automatically that everything was cleared. It?s actually quite understandable, that in country size of Russia changes will take lots, lots of time. Even you not question that Russia was not making public its crash statistics for long time. All this leads me to believe that statistic simply doesn?t look realistic. What statistic shows simply doesn?t match at all, what were the Polish experiences with IL-62M.
Even I said before I do not KNOW statistic manipulation takes place, I cannot understand how can you claim you KNOW they are not? Are you KGB head? How on earth in country in which passing from republic to republic required permit, where all media information were ?sanitized? and government controlled and where it was possible to successfully persuade large masses of people that communism was in fact the best system existing, anyone can say anything like this?
By calling me conspiratist you really question validity and truthfulness of what I trying to say.
What exactly you - trying to say? Quoted by me sources are false? Polish commission was wrong or falsified their result? I falsified translation? What?s your point? I trying to argument for last few posts, that we are not talking about just aviation mishaps, yet it seems for some reasons you negating my argumentation and keep repeating yours.
In my opinion defending ?what yours?, I mean what refers to your (presumably Russian) nationality or pride, by means of negating everything which speaks not favorably about it, is not patriotic behavior or attitude ? quite contrary.
By the way, while talking on different forum. I came to awareness of official ICAO pdf. document from March 20 2006. Before you start jumping up and down reading documents final conclusion which states that ?Soviet manufactured plane safety is not worse than any western manufactured plane?, I would like you to concentrate on point 1.1 in introduction which says:
QUOTE:
?1.1 The limited information on the accident rate, presented by the USSR Aviation Administrations to the international organizations, did not make it possible to draw any objective conclusions about the flight safety level of Soviet-manufactured civil aircraft and aeronautical equipment, which at present are mainly operated in the member States of the Agreement. ?
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/dgca/ip/dgca_06_ip_48_e.pdf
In case you wouldn't like to open pdf from link above, you can search document from official ICAO site by entering "DGCA/06-IP/48" into its search box:
ICAO Website | Search
Conclusions have been made admitting they cannot be objective due to fact of limited information about accident provided by USSR Aviation Administration.
Would this suggest that information about crashes is still not full - even today?
I also repetitiously agreed with fact that accidents in aviation do happens. Despise repeating it numerous times you still repeating same argument and I don?t know to make it any clearer any more.
In case of IL-62 engine problems, I feel we are not talking about, by any means, about any risk which is normally associated with commercial travel, normal use, bad luck or anything of that sort.
When engine defects occurs repeatedly, repeatedly cost human life, yet they occurs over and over, manufacturer denies its fault, government falsifies crash statistics while at the same time both publicly boost about their own superiority, finally over 20 years passes and defects are never fixed. For me this is not just an accident, but really absolutely ethically unacceptable behavior of treating passengers without any regard to their lives.
I mean I can understand that even when all fact would be known, its quite possible many people would and will, willfully agree to take risks for number of reasons. Some might feel sentiment to the plane, some may have economic reasons, while some might be forced to fly them simply because they have no other choice. Whatever anybody?s willful decision or opinion I can respect them all.
At the same time I utterly disagree, that lying about own faults or creating campaign of deception is justifiable by any means.
What about those people who have choices and who don?t want to risk their lives? I feel people have right to make such decision on their own, not have them made for them. If they agree to take risks, like plane, feel sentiment to it, I have absolutely no problem with it.
Arguments that information is not begin published to ?not upset people?, sounds to me as nothing short of typical, communist style, government BS, who tries to hides inconvenient to it truths, scare that aware of all facts people might finally get tired and angry enough, to kick them in their honorable butts hard enough, that they fall from their warm government chairs. Its error however to confuse someone?s rationalization of lies with truth.
I have to objectively agree, that I do not KNOW, that Russia still hides statistics of its own crashes. Anybody who doesn?t have proofs which are clear and raise no doubts whatsoever, in way direction or another simply can?t say it ?knows?. At the same time I have to say I strongly believe that?s exactly what takes place.
What I mentioned before already, there was number of incidents which happened in Poland. After second disaster Polish technical services developed technological means of early detecting engine problems, which resulted in finding bad engines on 6 planes out of 7 they had. Manufacturer claimed engine had no faults and all damage to it happened in result of crash, despise fact that engine turbine pieces were found over 200 miles away from disaster site, in place where plane failure in the air happened. All this happened already in times of ?Glasnost? and ?Pestroika? ? which doesn?t mean I feel that was anything wrong with it (quite contrary I feel enormous respect to president Gorbachev), but simply means that ?Perestroika? itself doesn?t mean automatically that everything was cleared. It?s actually quite understandable, that in country size of Russia changes will take lots, lots of time. Even you not question that Russia was not making public its crash statistics for long time. All this leads me to believe that statistic simply doesn?t look realistic. What statistic shows simply doesn?t match at all, what were the Polish experiences with IL-62M.
Even I said before I do not KNOW statistic manipulation takes place, I cannot understand how can you claim you KNOW they are not? Are you KGB head? How on earth in country in which passing from republic to republic required permit, where all media information were ?sanitized? and government controlled and where it was possible to successfully persuade large masses of people that communism was in fact the best system existing, anyone can say anything like this?
By calling me conspiratist you really question validity and truthfulness of what I trying to say.
What exactly you - trying to say? Quoted by me sources are false? Polish commission was wrong or falsified their result? I falsified translation? What?s your point? I trying to argument for last few posts, that we are not talking about just aviation mishaps, yet it seems for some reasons you negating my argumentation and keep repeating yours.
In my opinion defending ?what yours?, I mean what refers to your (presumably Russian) nationality or pride, by means of negating everything which speaks not favorably about it, is not patriotic behavior or attitude ? quite contrary.
By the way, while talking on different forum. I came to awareness of official ICAO pdf. document from March 20 2006. Before you start jumping up and down reading documents final conclusion which states that ?Soviet manufactured plane safety is not worse than any western manufactured plane?, I would like you to concentrate on point 1.1 in introduction which says:
QUOTE:
?1.1 The limited information on the accident rate, presented by the USSR Aviation Administrations to the international organizations, did not make it possible to draw any objective conclusions about the flight safety level of Soviet-manufactured civil aircraft and aeronautical equipment, which at present are mainly operated in the member States of the Agreement. ?
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/dgca/ip/dgca_06_ip_48_e.pdf
In case you wouldn't like to open pdf from link above, you can search document from official ICAO site by entering "DGCA/06-IP/48" into its search box:
ICAO Website | Search
Conclusions have been made admitting they cannot be objective due to fact of limited information about accident provided by USSR Aviation Administration.
Would this suggest that information about crashes is still not full - even today?