Democracy and Capitalism

[Rick Snyder]

Mirador I understand what you are saying but I must disagree on a couple of points. The article in question does not miss the point but rather explains it very clearly. It explains the way that the masses have allowed the present situation get to where it is. I use the words 'the masses' because it is the way they voted. You can state that the votes were bought, coerced or obtained by other means but the final result was a counting of the votes cast. It is because of the availability of using these votes is what makes this government a democracy and there is no getting around that. As I see it you have a democracy as crooked as that in the USA. As an example the US house of reps just passed a nice juicy pay raise for themselves just like the camara de deputies did last week for themselves. The big difference between these two government bodies is within how their internal laws are written. In the USA they need a majority of total members to pass legislation but not here because there were only 22 deputies present and they passes the pay raise after two very quick successive readings. I know 22 deputies don't make a majority of the total.

I will be the first to admit that the US government is messed up but at the same time they do have a tendency to rule in favor of the common good. Here in the DR that is not the case. (from the mentioned article)"If the masses are not benefiting from what the central authority is producing, then the authority has no legitimacy. We have a central government that has organized the country in such a way as to ensure disorganization and confusion and corruption".

Your statement that nothing can be done is not and should not be a consideration for any Dominican that has any feelings for their country and its people. Unless you like being disiplined by that rolled-up newspaper you need to comfront the person holding that newspaper. I am not suggesting attacking the holder with force but I am talking about confronting him. Of course you can always sit there and hope the beatings stop. I like Texas Bill have tried to suggest things that could be done. One thing I am sure of, and your government also, is that an inaction produces an inaction.

Rick

 

[observer keen]

all this animosity!

i wonder who is being referred to as a "mule with diarrhea" ?
changing a country starts with displaying profound respect for one's fellow human beings even in disagreement. such behavior is no different from the reviled behavior of the masses of which you have been so critical. hypocrits that you are!:angry:

 

[Texas Bill]

Observer keen, you just stepped on your own C***

Re-read your last posting, old son. Then ask yourself just who is being hipocritical.
You speak of respecting the voice of others when you virtually deny that same respect by casting out the "hopoctits that you are" type language.

You've made some very incisive contributions to this thread in the past so what has happened? Hummmm?

You seem to be faltering in your usual commentary.

We getting to you at last?? HUmmm?

All our criticisms of this government, in the DR, are based on personal observation of events that have led to certain conclusions that any blind man can focus on. If you don't live here and experience ,each and every day ,the same things that we do, you are just whistling in the wind and spouting off about something imagined by yourself, because of the way you think things are.
Come down here and experience the same frustrations, the same day-in and day-out machinations of this government, then maybe, just maybe, you'll begin to be enlightened a little beyound your intellectualizations of the situation here.

I gotta admit, tho, you're a real stubborn cuss sometimes.

Texas Bill

 

[observer keen]

I Beg To Differ!

I Have Never Disagreed With Your Description Of The Problems In Dr.
I Have Simply Disagreed With Your Proposed Solutions And Unilateral Blame On The Lower-class Of Dr. Of Course, The Governments Have Been More Or Less Corrupted. When Have I Been Hypocritical? Can You Stop Your Slandering? The Only Word That I Have Used As Insulting Is "moron"; But It Is A Benign Culture-based Insult Far Less Toxic To Human Dignity Than " Mule With Diarrhea".

 

[bienamor]

Need to calm down

I Have Never Disagreed With Your Description Of The Problems In Dr.
I Have Simply Disagreed With Your Proposed Solutions And Unilateral Blame On The Lower-class Of Dr. Of Course, The Governments Have Been More Or Less Corrupted. When Have I Been Hypocritical? Can You Stop Your Slandering? The Only Word That I Have Used As Insulting Is "moron"; But It Is A Benign Culture-based Insult Far Less Toxic To Human Dignity Than " Mule With Diarrhea".

People need to let the mules alone they are far smarter than Horses, and most people. By the way this is not being used as a code word for anything, I am talking about the cross between a Donkey, and a Horse. They normally combines the best traits of both parents. :ermm:

 

[observer keen]

..which is infertility!

 

[bienamor]

but thats good

..which is infertility!

That's just a side benefit. That way they won't evolve and get much smarter than the people.

 

[Texas Bill]

i wonder who is being referred to as a "mule with diarrhea" ?
changing a country starts with displaying profound respect for one's fellow human beings even in disagreement. such behavior is no different from the reviled behavior of the masses of which you have been so critical. hypocrits that you are!:angry:

ovserver keen---

If you're such a darn good observer, explain to me the last part of the last sentence in the above postby yourself in which you refer to ALL of us as being "hypocrits" after reviling All of US!

What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

If you deem our on the scene observations of the population as "reviling" perhaps you should come down here yourself and make your own "keen observations" so you will know firsthand that of which you speak.
These people are extremely naive about the ins and outs of political maneuvering. They're only interested in what the government will give them in return for their support at election time. They're extremely loyal to a particular political party, to the point of being politically blind. They have no idea of what you're talking about whe you quote prominent authors in the political arena. Most haven't the education to read beyound struggling through a 1st grade primer, and they read like a first grader would.
We, here, use many examples that you haven't the foggiest notion of what we're talking about, yet you refer to us as revilingly hipocritical.
So, until you come down here, make on-the-scene observations about the actual conditions here, just keep your intellectualizational summations to yourself. We don't need them.

Texas Bill

 

[observer keen]

Does It Occur That I Have Other Matters To Attend To!

I Still Am In School, And I Need To Prepare For Final Exams. My Reduced Frequency On The Site Has Nothing To Do With Your Explicitly Displayed Hostility.there Are Many Sites Of Which I Am A Member But Recently Have Found Myself Behind On My Scholarly Duties Due My Apparently Compulsive Writing.
I Am Simply Being More Responsible By Knowing My Priorities. I Will Participate Only On The Week-ends For I Am Trying To Avoid Addiction To A Computer-screen. Beleive Me, I Was Leading That Way Until My Girlfriend Confronted Me And Made Me Aware Of The Amount Of Time Spent, And Classes Missed As A Direct Result Of My Participation On Numerous Forums.

 

[Chris]

Methinks.. SockPuppet or alternate ego or something like that...

I Still Am In School, And I Need To Prepare For Final Exams. My Reduced Frequency On The Site Has Nothing To Do With Your Explicitly Displayed Hostility.there Are Many Sites Of Which I Am A Member But Recently Have Found Myself Behind On My Scholarly Duties Due My Apparently Compulsive Writing.
I Am Simply Being More Responsible By Knowing My Priorities. I Will Participate Only On The Week-ends For I Am Trying To Avoid Addiction To A Computer-screen. Beleive Me, I Was Leading That Way Until My Girlfriend Confronted Me And Made Me Aware Of The Amount Of Time Spent, And Classes Missed As A Direct Result Of My Participation On Numerous Forums.

 

[Texas Bill]

I Still Am In School, And I Need To Prepare For Final Exams. My Reduced Frequency On The Site Has Nothing To Do With Your Explicitly Displayed Hostility.there Are Many Sites Of Which I Am A Member But Recently Have Found Myself Behind On My Scholarly Duties Due My Apparently Compulsive Writing.
I Am Simply Being More Responsible By Knowing My Priorities. I Will Participate Only On The Week-ends For I Am Trying To Avoid Addiction To A Computer-screen. Beleive Me, I Was Leading That Way Until My Girlfriend Confronted Me And Made Me Aware Of The Amount Of Time Spent, And Classes Missed As A Direct Result Of My Participation On Numerous Forums.

Well, WHOOP-TI-DO for YOU.

Go for them "A's", old son.

You're gonna need them when you ge out into the "REAL WORLD"

Texas Bill

 

[observer keen]

And Whose Fault Is That If They Cannot Read Or Write? Isn't Basic Education Made Universal And Mandatory By Your Constitution?
You Have Repeated What I Have Already Observed On My Criticism Of Democracy; So Where Does The Disagreement Lie? It Lies In Your Unjustly Projecting The Entire Failure On The Masses. You Are More Educated Than They Are, Why Don't You And Your Kindred Organize A Seminar On Political Manipulation, Pass Out Flyers To Denounce The Corruption? Are You Involved In Such Works?

 

[observer keen]

I Have Been And Remain In The Real World_for God's Sake, Have You Ever Been In A Hostile Environment With Ethnic-albanian Kids To Protect While The Honchos Of Milosevic Are Shooting At You?
I Have Experienced Such Things In The Most Real Of Worlds, The World Of Fear Of Being Blown Up By A Road-side Mine.
Contrary To Your Misconception, I Am Not A Bleeding Heart, Tree-hugging Liberal With A Dangerously Naive Philosophy Of Pacivism.
I Simply Do Not Wish To Blame The Victim For Its Existential Circumstances. Not Everybody Is As Lucky As You And Myself With Daily Meals, Good Education, And Assured Protection From Political, Ethnic And Religious Persecution. Think About That!

 

[Texas Bill]

And Whose Fault Is That If They Cannot Read Or Write? Isn't Basic Education Made Universal And Mandatory By Your Constitution?
You Have Repeated What I Have Already Observed On My Criticism Of Democracy; So Where Does The Disagreement Lie? It Lies In Your Unjustly Projecting The Entire Failure On The Masses. You Are More Educated Then They Are, Why Don't You And Your Kindred Organize A Seminar On Political Manipulation, Pass Out Flyers To Denounce The Corruption? Are You Involved In Such Works?

Answer to first sentence---Yes it is! But, no person can lead a horse to water amd make him drink if he doesn't want to. Then you must have competent educators who KNOW HOW to EDUCATE those masses! That's what is wrong here!

Think about that!

In a Democracy, the ultimate RESPONSIBILITY for a good, bad, or indifferent government lies with the voting constituency.

Do you deny that??

Answer to the Last Question.

Yes, some of us have!
When you have gathered up 5 speakers and have only 2 people on the audience, it gets a tad discouraging.
But, we just keep plugging away. Maybe audience participation will increase!

So, you see, we're not as hipocritical as you would like us to be.

Your problem is that you THINK you know "What is Best for the DR, but you really don't!


Texas Bill

 

[Chris]

TexasBill, I think you're talking to a sock-puppet or an alter ego or something at the moment, or, somone has rallied the troops... multiple personalities here...

 

[Texas Bill]

TexasBill, I think you're talking to a sock-puppet or an alter ego or something at the moment, or, somone has rallied the troops... multiple personalities here...

Chris;

I think you are absolutely RIGHT. Shades of "dillusions of granduer" in the wings.

He can't seem to get it through his thick head that our opinion is one of pity for a person who attempts to intellectualize his way through life hoping for recognition from ALL.
As far as I'm concerned, he's nothing but a self-centered "blow-hard".

??, should I refer to my 27 years in the USAF, from WWII til '70. I don't think that would impress him a bit. He's bound to poo-poo that in some manner or other, just to make himself appear to be better than I.

Takes all kinds to make up the world, doesn't it???

Texas Bill

 

[observer keen]

are you interested in argumenting your point or....?

i have not changed gears since i have been posting on this site! this alliance does not scare me. my army record is not impressive, kosovo was not much of a war_ that is the reason that i have referred to it as a "hostile environment". it was meant to dispell any preconception of my being a tree-hugger, something you, texas bill, had insinuated in one of your earliest responses.
the masses are not uncoachable as i have maintained; they can be educated just as you have been educated, their reluctance is symptomatic of their ingrained ignorance. with time and great effort, dr can evolve into an educated electorate.
it seems that you would not mind the following constitutional amendment: voting right predicated on level of education.
the problem with this is that the people in charge would have no incentive to educate the masses. is this what you harbor deep inside?
by the way, my favorite leader is mustafa ataturk, and he was not initially elected as head of state in turkey. you see, i am not a sucker for democratic rule as a fit-all-shoe.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Texas Bill I keep trying to keep this thread on track but it's so difficult. In my postings someone came upon a couple of words that I said and in accordance with the old proverbial "if the shoe fits" they in fact dicided to wear them, Oh well. Speak for yourself Kimo Sabe you feel pity and I repugnance but regardless Chris is right.

Rick

 

[observer keen]

"...as far as i am concerned he is nothing but a self-centered "blow-hard"
texas bill, people spent millenia thinking that the earth was flat and supported by giant turtles. similarly, your disfavor of me has no bearing on my inherent character. if you are not willing to even pretend to respect a fellow american veteran, then one can only wonder your daily attitude toward the dominican locals.
you may have chosen the wrong man for a war of words,
i have beat one court-martial and one article 15 with myself as my own legal representative. i will not bow to your numerically stronger alliance. i have spent two years being the only african-american participant in the aryan nation website_ when called nappy-hair, i would reply that it reflects the geometric structure of human DNA and when called darkie, i would respond with my skin being an "energy-reservoir". you see, i am not easily impacted by cheap insults. so if that is your strategy, you are wasting your energy.

 

[Texas Bill]

i have not changed gears since i have been posting on this site! this alliance does not scare me. my army record is not impressive, kosovo was not much of a war_ that is the reason that i have referred to it as a "hostile environment". it was meant to dispell any preconception of my being a tree-hugger, something you, texas bill, had insinuated in one of your earliest reponses.
the masses are not uncoachable as i have maintained; they can be educated just as you have been educated, their reluctance is symptomatic of their ingrained ignorance. with time and great effort, dr can evolve into an educated electorate.
it seems that you would not mind the following constitutional amendment: voting right predicated on level of education.
the problem with this is that the people in charge would have no incentive to educate the masses. is this what you harbor deep inside?
by the way, my favorite leader is mustafa ataturk, and he was not initially elected as head of state in turkey. you see, i am not a sucker for democratic rule as a fit-all-shoe.

Her we go again, making implications about that which you know nothing.
I am not, never have been, never will be, a proponent of limiting the right to vote based on educational achievement. Where on Earth did you get that ides. A figment of your imagination(?), or are you just plain wishful in your allegtion??Hummm?
I am as well aware as you just what such a system of voting would bring about. It's called "elitism". Shades of Alexander Hamilton, no less.

As to "Kemal Mustafa", the Turkish variety, in fact he was just as vitroilic about eliminating secularism as he was aabout eliminating te Greeks and Italians from the country during his "takeover". The man is venerated, to this day, for the manner in which he 'drove the enemy into the sea" at Izmir.
He followed that atrocity up with the edict against the wearing of the FEZ and caused several thousand to be hng publically as an incentive for the practice to be eliminated. To this day, religious leaders are prohibited from holding ANY public or elected office within the government.
That he drug Turkey, kicking and screaming, from the Islamic governing to a state of semi-democracy, goes without further comment. he did that. The manner in which he did it remains debated today amoung well read political circles.

Bear in mind that the foundation of their legal system is the Napolionic Code, flavored with Islamic law and Hammurabi's Code from the days of the ancient Persian Empire. The political practices are still those of the Osmanlis and their cohorts.

I am compelled to add this; you have the WRONG "Hero" in Kemal Mustafa. There others who would serve you better, but do your research well.

Texas Bill