Dominicans in the U.S. Can you identify?

[AlterEgo]

I wonder why no one is interested in shades of white - i mean irish people must be some of the whitest...

Good question jr! My husband [Dominican] often makes comments about very white people though. The one who comes to mind is the actress who plays Lilly on Cold Case. Every time we watch it he says how WHITE she is, with an almost amazed tone to his voice. [she IS exceptionally white]. It must be contagious, because last week I took my very pale grandson to the playground and a little friend from preschool was there with his parents. I was describing him to my daughter that night because she didn't recognize his name, and found myself saying how very white the boy was. Maybe he's Irish, LOL

 

[RGVgal]

I grew up in NYC, but not in a Dominican neighborhood. It's weird for me at times because when I meet people and tell them I'm Dominican, they are usually surprised as if that was the last thing they were expecting. I guess I don't fit their idea of what a Dominican is suppose to be and I get this reaction from Dominicans also.

The other day, I was chatting in Spanish with a Dominican woman I met at a party and after chatting for about 20 mins, she mentioned something about the town where she grew up the D.R. and I replied, that I knew exactly where that was. She was shocked at my response and asked me if I visited her country often and I had a puzzled looked on my face because in my mind I was sure that she had figured out that I was Dominican, just like I figured out she was. When I tell her, oh I'm Dominican also she tells me that I don't look or sound Dominican. She couldn't pin point my accent when speaking Spanish but she was convinced that I was not Dominican. I had to get my friend, the hostess of the party, to come over and verify me being Dominican.

This happens to me all the time..It's like I'm no longer Dominican enough for a lot of Dominicans.

 

[Dragonfly32837]

When we live out of the country for a long time our accent tends to diminish. Dominicans in other countries speak different than the Dominicans in the island.

 

[bachata]

When we live out of the country for a long time our accent tends to diminish. Dominicans in other countries speak different than the Dominicans in the island.

That doesn't happens to Spaniards when living abroad, I know Spaniards that have been living in the DR 40 years and more and still have their own accent.
JJ

 

[NALs]

That doesn't happens to Spaniards when living abroad, I know Spaniards that have been living in the DR 40 years and more and still have their own accent.
JJ

The likelihood that their accent has changed is very high. You may not be able to notice the difference, but if a native Spaniard living in Spain has the chance to speak with such person, he/she will most likely notice a difference and will bring this up in conversation. This I have witnessed. In all instances, I never noticed the differences, but they are there, even if they are subtle.

 

[NALs]

Honestly, I know he does not think about his colour much and rather much more about his culture.

That's the fundamental difference between Anglo America and Latin America. In the first, the belief is that race is the single most important aspect in human identities and everything else follows after that, in the latter culture is the defining factor.

In the Aglo American mentality, your race defines what culture/subculture you should assimilate to, and along with this comes the notions of what a person of a particular culture should look like. If you look like a Dominican (whatever that may be), people will assume you are Dominican even if you don't show a few Dominican cultural traits. The experiences expressed by many Anglo-American mulattoes in places with a high concentration of Dominicans (ie. NY) will often mention how people confuse them for Dominicans all the time, even by people they have known for a while and never showed any signs of Dominican cultural traits. In the same manner, Dominicans that may not "look like a Dominican", will have their identity challenged based on look; regardless if the person shows actual Dominican cultural traits.

In the Latin American mentality, your culture defines the identity you should assimilate to, and along with this comes the lack of a notion of what a person of a particular culture should look like. If culturally you seem Dominican, then you are accepted as Dominican regardless of looks. If, however, you look like most Dominicans but don't show a few cultural traits that will identify you as part of Dominican culture, you will not be expected to be Dominican.

In my opinion, culture is the most important factor in a person's identity. What is usually done in the US is that a person's identity takes a racial precedence, and then a culture is applied based on the perception of such race; and this has resulted in American culture being split not just along class lines, but also along racial lines. Contrary to what is often seen in Latin America where class lines are the sole dividers in cultural identity.

From time to time the reality of culture being truly the most important aspect is seen, even in Anglo American society. I remember back in my university days, an African guy with all the qualifications as stipulated in the department, was prevented from being the head of the African American Studies department due to the fact that he is not of African American extraction; in other words due to not having the same culture. This was widely discussed through out the university campus by professors and students, many of the White professors being puzzled as to how can such occurrence had taken place.

The Anglo American way of seeing this is simply racist and has a racist purpose, while the Latin American way does not. However, even in the Anglo American societies with such mentality, the supreme importance of culture above all else periodically rear its head, even above race. The Anglo American way of seeing this facilitates the perpetuation of the concept of separate but equal mantra, while the Latin American way perpetuates the concept of one united nationality.

This is not to say that racism can't exist in the latter or that its exclusive of the former, but that in the former racism will (and has) appear stronger/stricter/harsher than in the latter where its much more mellow, and even disappears depending on the particular circumstances of the individual.

 

[SantiagoDR]

That's the fundamental difference between Anglo America and Latin America. In the first, the belief is that race is the single most important aspect in human identities and everything else follows after that, in the latter culture is the defining factor. ...............

There's a third category NALs.

People say I look like a Cop!

 

[jrhartley]

the differences are not that subtle....even i can tell to a certain degree

 

[mfebs]

Im am one of those darker dominicans, my tone is that of a mid tone african american, my bone structure however is not of the average african american with the larger nose etc.. Because of this i often get called out as beeing a handsome young black man by many african american women but then they seem puzzled when i tell them im dominican. My older brother, even though we have the same parents (My mom is of arab decent and my father of black) looks like a penut tone arab with a very thin and straight nose and most people can't belive it when we tell them we are brothers. When i lived in the DR this difference in us was never really there, or we just didn't see it, but when we moved to the US we got categorize into two different races, i'm black and my brother is arab, regardless of the fact they we come from the exact same parents. I can not deny that this bothers me, it bothers our entire family actually, if you see us all together for christmas is like a trick question; how many families in this picture? 5, wrong answer, just 1.
In the US to be one family averyone has to look alike, in dominican families this is not the case due to the large number of mixture in our blood.

 

[Golo100]

There we go again with the Anglo-American bias and the fantasy-like idea that all Latins are just that and that we are united, and that anglos try to divide us.
My experience is that I lived in United States for over 30 years. I lived in the hood, but as soon as I graduated from college I moved on to better things. I joined "the nation". I became an American and succeeded. I left the neighborhood behind and never looked back. I did the same thing like the people who went to Idaho and Oklahoma.
If you integrate into the existing culture you succeed. If you remain in the neighborhood and keep a chip in your shoulder you end up in that viscious circle.
I lived in many cities, Chicago, New York, Miami, Philadelphia, and states like New Jersey(Chatham-Short Hills..the Beverly Hills of NJ) and hardly ever suffered any discrimination.
But then one day I was offered an international opportunity by my employer in their Puerto Rico office..and guess what? The PuertoRican dominated executive board turned me down because I was Dominican. Take that for being "An all Latin culture".
There is more discrimination of Argentinians and Cubans against Dominicans than Americans against Dominicans. Puerto Ricans in the island discriminate against Dominicans openly.
And in another vein, black Dominicans or Brazilians are not considered black in America. They're listed as Latinos. The culture and the language define their ethnicity, not the color.
And it's only fair, because our cocolos and black Dominicans want nothing to do with Haitians and Africans.

 

[M.A.R.]

And it's only fair, because our cocolos and black Dominicans want nothing to do with Haitians and Africans.

LOL and the cycle continues...........

 

[POPNYChic]

Lambada, I will definitely look into the authors you've mentioned as this is something i spend alot of time mulling over as my worlds slowly meld together....

This kind of reminds me of how much of the history I know I have learned on my own time because of my own genuine interest. I found the Dominican education systems version to be short-sighted and far from comprehensive...obviously that cannot be good. Thats a whole topic altogether but it ties into my current views.




RGVgal, I can identify with that as well.Most Dominicans see me and assume I am a light skinned African American. Even in NYC, DR#2. And as for accent, my moms side of the family has never really had one...not in the DR and not here. I think due to my grandparents backgrounds. I have never been told I am not Dominican enough though. If anything people used to question if I was really from the U.S. because I didnt go around boasting about "Ay, como se dice, se me olvida el espanol. Yo viajo! Mira cuanta prenda de oro llevo!" like the people they were used to seeing.

Now with this big afro of mine, Dominicans are generally appalled. Oh well. If everyone else can be happy with the hair that grows out of their head, I can too. I no longer listen to their talk about how nappy hair is a curse to be bred out. I love it. It suits me. You can always look away.


mfebs, Thats how my family is too. I look black but my brother started getting called a terrorist at school when 9/11 happened. Middle Easterners give him a nod when they see him on the street lol 3 of us look black, 1 looks Italian, 3 look Middle Eastern...My dad looks black/arab....my mother looks like a light skinned mulatta, her sister (same parents) looks korean and is mistaken for such regularly, their mom looks filipina and always has women coming up to her trying to chat in tagalog lol our granddad looks ethiopian. my other grandma looked guyanese...indigenous. and the other grandfather is a child of a mulatta and a lebanese.

my american friends used to look at my family albums like wth. but over in DR thats normal.

Golo, you hardly faced discrimination and thats great. But everyone is not the same. Some have and are having a hard time because of it, sadly. This thread isnt about that though.

Now, you also say black dominicans and brazilians arent seen as black by the u.s. but if you have effectively assimilated how can anyone tell which kind of black you are at first glance? Do you mean on paper?

And yeah. But I'm a black Dominican who is interested in Africa and likes Haitians. American influence maybe?

Oh and yes, theres alot of in-fighting between LA folks. Theres in-fighting everywhere, anywhere.

And NALS is so correct in the assessments of anglo-american vs LA culture...

Its not that we are idyllic...its that we are much closer to true integration than the U.S.

 

[jrhartley]

people often mistake me for scottish , none of my family has exactly the same skin tone as each other......not many families do, we havent started cloning yet.

 

[Lambada]

Lambada, I will definitely look into the authors you've mentioned as this is something i spend alot of time mulling over as my worlds slowly meld together....

This kind of reminds me of how much of the history I know I have learned on my own time because of my own genuine interest. I found the Dominican education systems version to be short-sighted and far from comprehensive...obviously that cannot be good. Thats a whole topic altogether but it ties into my current views.

I think you might like Sag?s - he talks about the selective interpretation of historical facts being orchestrated by powerful elite groups in the Dominican Republic with strong interests to defend. He also examines how Dominican history has been rewritten, Trujillo for example using Balaguer to write La Realidad Dominicana in 1947, and concludes that Dominican children in school learn a national history full of distortions, myths, and prejudices and reproduce it to their children. I've discussed this with other Dominicans struggling with the same things you have and after they have read Sag?s beaming smiles and true lightbulb moments. He seems to know how to explain things in a way which makes sense to those Dominicans who ponder these issues.

 

[mountainannie]

It is true

the real integration.. by way of racial mixing by intermarriage.... has occurred much more in the Latin countries.. at least here .. than in the US which had laws in effect against inter racial marriage up until 1967!! There were no such laws in any South American countries... nor were such unions prohibited by the Catholic Church as they were, for example, by the Church of England.

So indeed this is a peculiar American, or more correctly Anglo-American, issue, which Dominicans do not have in their history.

Certainly it must be confusing for Dominicans who immigrate to be confronted with an entirely different reality-- that they are no longer playing baseball but soccer, for instance. Much as Gandhi was confronted with the apartheid of South Africa on the train.

Yet there is still a "bleed over" here in the DR---that the white skinned Spaniards, the blanquintos, control, have more power, have an advantage, let us not be blind to that. It is there in the hair straightening and in the social pages of every Sunday paper.

I remember one discussion with a Dominican about a dark skinned Indian who had immigrated to this country to do business, speculating that he might have trouble because of his color.. and he said to me... "No, you do not understand it yet. We Dominicans are not racists, really. We are simply anti Haitian. It is to guard our territory. It is not at all based on the color of their skin."

 

[bachata]

. "No, you do not understand it yet. We Dominicans are not racists, really. We are simply anti Haitian. It is to guard our territory. It is not at all based on the color of their skin."

Yes he is right, African Americans are welcome in the DR with lot of Dollars in their pocket to be spend on vacations.
But no the Haitian with a machete in their hands to cut our trees.

JJ

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

Yet there is still a "bleed over" here in the DR---that the white skinned Spaniards, the blanquintos, control, have more power, have an advantage, let us not be blind to that. It is there in the hair straightening and in the social pages of every Sunday paper.

Socioeconomic class, both historically and still to this day is by far the biggest factor in determining ones lot in life in DR. You can also add ones 'connections' (cronysim is still big) to that, but not 'color or race'. There are a ton of real life examples that demonstrate this fact over and over again which is why I find distorted conclusions based on one dimensional racecentric analysis puzzling. Race/color was never destiny in DR, ones ancestry did not prevent socioeconomic mobility. I'm sure other posters here can give you a ton of examples, but I doubt this information is ever going to influence your already made up mind.

I also don't know what's with the hair straightening comment? Is this too to be blamed on the old colonial powers? Is this sometype of 'proof' that points to something wrong with Dominicans?
Haircare has always been of importance to Dominican women, it goes way back. It is cultural, not limited to any one segment of the population. Dominican women, like women all over the world will alter their hair (curled, straightened, colored, etc.) according to the latest fashion. Due to their very mixed heritage, hair texture varies widely even between very close family kin. And of course, there are a ton of Dominican women who wear their hair naturally, including models. It all depends how it looks. If this somehow means that there is something wrong (denial, ashamed, blah blah blah), why don't Domincian men then straighten their hair like Al Sharpton, James Brown and Kat Williams?
And IF we are to follow this train of thought:
-A much much larger percentange of non-Hispanic Caribbean women (Haitians, Jamaicans, etc,) straighten their hair, does this mean they suffer from the 'bleed over" that the white skinned Brits & French left over?

-Since it is an African American woman who is mostly credited with the invention of the straightening comb, does this mean she started it?

-African American women who wear their hair naturally, are an extremely rare site (other than artist)

-Let's add that the regions where skin bleaching creams are used to alarming degree are:
Asia ( India, Pakistan, Thailand, etc.)
Sub Saharan Africa
West Indian islands like Jamaica

Does this mean they're even worse than Domincans?

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

Thought I would post this link since Lambada referenced Ramona Hernandez

MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans


We had quite a discussion about this on Michele Wucker's Dominican listserv which was active at the time. As an alum of the City University, I was finally moved to write to both Ms Hernandez and the Chancellor for what I deemed to be -- at best culturally insensitive, at worst, racist, remarks.... This was after I had corresponded with the reporter. I got a response from Dr Hernandez, from others, especially touching from Edwidge Dandicat.

That article is so full of distorted takes on DR that it's not even taken seriously on various Anthropology forums. I wonder why do these types of articles, and the one this thread is about get so much attention.

 

[ExtremeR]

Socioeconomic class, both historically and still to this day is by far the biggest factor in determining ones lot in life in DR. You can also add ones 'connections' (cronysim is still big) to that, but not 'color or race'. There are a ton of real life examples that demonstrate this fact over and over again which is why I find distorted conclusions based on one dimensional racecentric analysis puzzling. Race/color was never destiny in DR, ones ancestry did not prevent socioeconomic mobility. I'm sure other posters here can give you a ton of examples, but I doubt this information is ever going to influence your already made up mind.

I also don't know what's with the hair straightening comment? Is this too to be blamed on the old colonial powers? Is this sometype of 'proof' that points to something wrong with Dominicans?
Haircare has always been of importance to Dominican women, it goes way back. It is cultural, not limited to any one segment of the population. Dominican women, like women all over the world will alter their hair (curled, straightened, colored, etc.) according to the latest fashion. Due to their very mixed heritage, hair texture varies widely even between very close family kin. And of course, there are a ton of Dominican women who wear their hair naturally, including models. It all depends how it looks. If this somehow means that there is something wrong (denial, ashamed, blah blah blah), why don't Domincian men then straighten their hair like Al Sharpton, James Brown and Kat Williams?
And IF we are to follow this train of thought:
-A much much larger percentange of non-Hispanic Caribbean women (Haitians, Jamaicans, etc,) straighten their hair, does this mean they suffer from the 'bleed over" that the white skinned Brits & French left over?

-Since it is an African American woman who is mostly credited with the invention of the straightening comb, does this mean she started it?

-African American women who wear their hair naturally, are an extremely rare site (other than artist)

-Let's add that the regions where skin bleaching creams are used to alarming degree are:
Asia ( India, Pakistan, Thailand, etc.)
Sub Saharan Africa
West Indian islands like Jamaica

Does this mean they're even worse than Domincans?

Best post of the thread.

 

[jrhartley]

just out of interest- was the afro style hair more popular in the 70s here or have the ladies always gone more for the straight styles -