please for me define.....
...define to me what is uncultured Spanish.
I would really like to hear this.
...define to me what is uncultured Spanish.
I would really like to hear this.
- Thread starter Pib
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El espa?ol de Santo Domingo.
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sancochojoe
Do you speak Spanish? If so, are you nitpicking, baiting, trying to steer the thread or is this a simple honest question?
I wouldn't believe anyone would ask what "uncultured Spanish" is. Althought the term might not be the correct one, it is obvious that some people's Spanish differ in term of grammar, pronounciation, rythm, meaning, etc. from the standard ("fisno" as opposed to "fino", e.g.). This is not meant to be demeaning, just a fact.
Do you speak Spanish? If so, are you nitpicking, baiting, trying to steer the thread or is this a simple honest question?
I wouldn't believe anyone would ask what "uncultured Spanish" is. Althought the term might not be the correct one, it is obvious that some people's Spanish differ in term of grammar, pronounciation, rythm, meaning, etc. from the standard ("fisno" as opposed to "fino", e.g.). This is not meant to be demeaning, just a fact.
Not at all PIB,
That was not my intention, I just wanted to clarify.
I mean the word "Uncultured" would mean to the naked
eye and without explanation "Without Culture". I don't know
it just seems crude i guess.
And when I look at the word "Cultured" I see "variety"
So I would say people who use "slang" or annunciate a certain common language a different way, I would say they are adding "culture" to the language. They are taking a standard form of the language
and using it in a way......non standard and adding "spice" to it, to the point where it may force "scholars" of the language to recognize the changes made by a group of people.
But no I was not trying to bait or steer the topic here. I was simply trying to interpret your use and thats how I interpret it.
It was nothing more than semantics.
sorry
That was not my intention, I just wanted to clarify.
I mean the word "Uncultured" would mean to the naked
eye and without explanation "Without Culture". I don't know
it just seems crude i guess.
And when I look at the word "Cultured" I see "variety"
So I would say people who use "slang" or annunciate a certain common language a different way, I would say they are adding "culture" to the language. They are taking a standard form of the language
and using it in a way......non standard and adding "spice" to it, to the point where it may force "scholars" of the language to recognize the changes made by a group of people.
But no I was not trying to bait or steer the topic here. I was simply trying to interpret your use and thats how I interpret it.
It was nothing more than semantics.
sorry
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Sancochojoe, I have just read back through the thread and no one has been judgemental, no one has used the terms 'good' or 'bad', 'cultured' or 'uncultured', 'uneducated' or 'literate' in a judgemental way, although I accept none of these terms are neutral. We are stating facts, not making judgements (unlike some posters on the thread that inspired this discussion).
More neutral terms could be 'standard' and 'non-standard' Spanish but these are inadequate - as you illustrated by your analogy to the Queen's English.
I think it goes without saying that so-called 'uncultured' Spanish is a colourful addition to the language. I have taken your position about communication in argument with my mother - who insists that the Spanish spoken in my home town is 'wrong' - literally hundreds of times!
Chiri
More neutral terms could be 'standard' and 'non-standard' Spanish but these are inadequate - as you illustrated by your analogy to the Queen's English.
I think it goes without saying that so-called 'uncultured' Spanish is a colourful addition to the language. I have taken your position about communication in argument with my mother - who insists that the Spanish spoken in my home town is 'wrong' - literally hundreds of times!
Chiri
Dominicans don't speak Spanish,& Americans don't speak English!!!
My sister has a "Masters" in Foreign Languages,including Spanish.She couldn't understand anyone from the "Barios" of Santo Domingo!They speak Dominican "Ghetto-ese"!CC.."BoyPaYa!"
My sister has a "Masters" in Foreign Languages,including Spanish.She couldn't understand anyone from the "Barios" of Santo Domingo!They speak Dominican "Ghetto-ese"!CC.."BoyPaYa!"
I always assumed that a person who studies language would be able to have the skill to understand all forms of the language,
and those who claim to be champion of the proper form and use of the language, yet their limitations are obvious.
What's funny is the people that talk and understand the street language can also understand the "educated" form of the language. So it makes me wonder who is the true master of the language.
hmmmmmmm
and those who claim to be champion of the proper form and use of the language, yet their limitations are obvious.
What's funny is the people that talk and understand the street language can also understand the "educated" form of the language. So it makes me wonder who is the true master of the language.
hmmmmmmm
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I predict the infusion of many iraqui words into the language here, being a result of exposure by the Dominicans now in iraq.
I base this on the propensity for people to make use of a language whose nuances better describe an event than one's maternal language.
A case in point was the infusion of many purely German, Japanese and other linguistic expressions into the American "speak" after WWII, and later Phillipine, Vietnamese, etc. All brought back and introduced by returning service personnel.
Yes, this is off-thread, but significant.
Texas Bill
I base this on the propensity for people to make use of a language whose nuances better describe an event than one's maternal language.
A case in point was the infusion of many purely German, Japanese and other linguistic expressions into the American "speak" after WWII, and later Phillipine, Vietnamese, etc. All brought back and introduced by returning service personnel.
Yes, this is off-thread, but significant.
Texas Bill
Bill,your post is of no value,UNLESS,...
you will list for us the Vietnamese,Philipino,Japanese,or "Arabic" words brought back to the USA by our soldiers who lived in those countries!!Cris Colon
you will list for us the Vietnamese,Philipino,Japanese,or "Arabic" words brought back to the USA by our soldiers who lived in those countries!!Cris Colon
LANGUAGE EBONIS AND DOMINICAN SLANG
As ONE WHO reside in the good ole us of a I think slang ebonics whatever is fine as long as you use all of your languge for the appropriate way for communication. I would not speak prroper to a thug just as I would not use slang or say simone to a high class person. I use all of my languages yto serve my purpose. To people who think it is unintelligent or ebonis or dominican slang in unitelligent well many of these so called unintelligent hip hop related words are now an accepted part of the english language and can be found in websters dictionary. (smile)
As ONE WHO reside in the good ole us of a I think slang ebonics whatever is fine as long as you use all of your languge for the appropriate way for communication. I would not speak prroper to a thug just as I would not use slang or say simone to a high class person. I use all of my languages yto serve my purpose. To people who think it is unintelligent or ebonis or dominican slang in unitelligent well many of these so called unintelligent hip hop related words are now an accepted part of the english language and can be found in websters dictionary. (smile)
Old habits...
One funny example comes to mind:
My dominican wife - from the Cibao - knows a fellow Cibae?o living here in Norway. In Norwegian the term "yesterday" is pronounced something like "e-gorrr" with a distinct rolling "r". However, true to his habits, this cibae?o pronounces it like "e-goi" as if he was speaking his native cibae?o "ayei". Sounds a bit funny, but there you go.
One funny example comes to mind:
My dominican wife - from the Cibao - knows a fellow Cibae?o living here in Norway. In Norwegian the term "yesterday" is pronounced something like "e-gorrr" with a distinct rolling "r". However, true to his habits, this cibae?o pronounces it like "e-goi" as if he was speaking his native cibae?o "ayei". Sounds a bit funny, but there you go.
Crissssssssss;
You have caught me with my pants down!!!
I can recall only a couple of japanese words like taksan and scosh and maybe if I can get my thinking cap on, a few more. I do recall in the years between 1945 and 197--, the uses of many words not of American/English origin. Perhaps that was due to being in the comparatively closed society of the Military, where the infusions began. I'm really not sure. I do recall a number of words being thrown around after I retired, but again, that may be the result of living in an area where there were a large number of active duty and retired Military.
Mea Culpa if I am wrong.
Texas Bill
You have caught me with my pants down!!!
I can recall only a couple of japanese words like taksan and scosh and maybe if I can get my thinking cap on, a few more. I do recall in the years between 1945 and 197--, the uses of many words not of American/English origin. Perhaps that was due to being in the comparatively closed society of the Military, where the infusions began. I'm really not sure. I do recall a number of words being thrown around after I retired, but again, that may be the result of living in an area where there were a large number of active duty and retired Military.
Mea Culpa if I am wrong.
Texas Bill
all the dialects are equally legit
As some previous members have mentioned, comparing the different dialects of Spanish (in various countries) to the different dialects of English is very valid. Dominican Spanish is just as legitimate as Chilean Spanish as is Iberian Spanish. Many people speak with different tones, formalities, and phrases depending on who they are speaking with. Written Spanish, for formal work or essays, should be closer to the correct grammer and phrasing styles. However, when speaking amongst friends or in informal situations, using slang and idioms from your own country is perfectly legitimate and does not make you more or less educated. I learned Castillian Spanish in my classes, but I like the sound and the phrasing of Dominican Spanish much more.
I grew up in a small town in Kentucky with parents who are from northern Ohio, then went to Louisiana for my undergraduate degree and am now working on my graduate degree in Miami, Florida. Yes, there are some dialectical words I use from the various places I have lived, but I think it just makes my accent more interesting. However, when I write essays or speak with professors or businessmen, my English is much more "proper".
Likewise, my closest friends are Dominicans from La Romana and Santo Domingo, but I have worked with international students from many Latin American countries. With my dominicanos, we use dominican slang and the more rapid way of speaking. However, with my Venezuelan or Colombian friends, I use a more formal version of Spanish or even a few venezuelan idioms. A funny story that occurred when I was recently in the capital, my sister, a friend, and I were discussing music. My sister said she likes salsa better than merengue or bachata. My friend from the capital made a comment about salsa, but he said "sarsa". My sister is not very fluent in Spanish, and she thought he was making fun of the way she said it. I explained to her that it was just because of his dialect and she was amused that the pronunciations could differ so much.
Languages are so interesting to learn because they reflect so much about the culture in which they developed. Education can be shown in the way you carry yourself in formal, important situations and how well you can speak and write your language, but in our everyday lives (especially with our friends and families) we should feel comfortable being ourselves and using the dialect we feel most comfortable with.
As some previous members have mentioned, comparing the different dialects of Spanish (in various countries) to the different dialects of English is very valid. Dominican Spanish is just as legitimate as Chilean Spanish as is Iberian Spanish. Many people speak with different tones, formalities, and phrases depending on who they are speaking with. Written Spanish, for formal work or essays, should be closer to the correct grammer and phrasing styles. However, when speaking amongst friends or in informal situations, using slang and idioms from your own country is perfectly legitimate and does not make you more or less educated. I learned Castillian Spanish in my classes, but I like the sound and the phrasing of Dominican Spanish much more.
I grew up in a small town in Kentucky with parents who are from northern Ohio, then went to Louisiana for my undergraduate degree and am now working on my graduate degree in Miami, Florida. Yes, there are some dialectical words I use from the various places I have lived, but I think it just makes my accent more interesting. However, when I write essays or speak with professors or businessmen, my English is much more "proper".
Likewise, my closest friends are Dominicans from La Romana and Santo Domingo, but I have worked with international students from many Latin American countries. With my dominicanos, we use dominican slang and the more rapid way of speaking. However, with my Venezuelan or Colombian friends, I use a more formal version of Spanish or even a few venezuelan idioms. A funny story that occurred when I was recently in the capital, my sister, a friend, and I were discussing music. My sister said she likes salsa better than merengue or bachata. My friend from the capital made a comment about salsa, but he said "sarsa". My sister is not very fluent in Spanish, and she thought he was making fun of the way she said it. I explained to her that it was just because of his dialect and she was amused that the pronunciations could differ so much.
Languages are so interesting to learn because they reflect so much about the culture in which they developed. Education can be shown in the way you carry yourself in formal, important situations and how well you can speak and write your language, but in our everyday lives (especially with our friends and families) we should feel comfortable being ourselves and using the dialect we feel most comfortable with.
valueing dialects is interesting but
When comparing dialect with the standard in any language it is my opinion that they can be compared on a number of levels
Functionality:
1) It should be recognized that a language standard exists (Castillian Spanish, Queens English, Goethe's German). A large number of scientific study and effort goes into the definition and maintance of the standard language. As mentioned in other posts the standard in a living thing, a language evolves over time.
2) Standards serve the purpose of making communication possible across the entire geography where this language is spoken. Furthermore it serves as a touchstone for written material that can be understood throughout the geographical region.
3) Dialects are in itself not less than the standard apart from lacking the functionality of 2). If you spend your entire life living in the Cibao region, you're probably better off speaking the local dialect. If you want to travel around you're probably better off speaking a Spanish that's closer to the standard as this will make it easier to be more widely understood.
Social connotation:
4) Speaking a dialect of alternatively the standard language will mark you as a person of a certain social grouping.
5) As higher social strate tend to be more internationally oriented, they tend to speak a language closer to the standard language.
6) Because of 5) the dialects themselves are usually held in lower esteem than the standard.
Fun or fashion
7) Over periods of time or when moving in certain circles it can be fashionable or fun to adopt different accents or dialects. It can also lead to a greater acceptance within social sub-strata (in-crowd behavior).
8) These fads tend to fade over time, giving rise to new fashionable language elements. Due to this I would not recommend keeping the fashionable dialects as your main language as it will mark you as 'backward' as soon as the fashion changes again.
For the reasons mentioned above I always prefer to start out with the standard and adapt according to the circumstances, as the standard language is the more generally applicable tool.
However, I thoroughly enjoyed it when people asked me if I was from Spain in the beginning (Domenicans can be very polite to gringos) and now ask me how long I have lived in the DR.
Just my two cents.
MD
When comparing dialect with the standard in any language it is my opinion that they can be compared on a number of levels
Functionality:
1) It should be recognized that a language standard exists (Castillian Spanish, Queens English, Goethe's German). A large number of scientific study and effort goes into the definition and maintance of the standard language. As mentioned in other posts the standard in a living thing, a language evolves over time.
2) Standards serve the purpose of making communication possible across the entire geography where this language is spoken. Furthermore it serves as a touchstone for written material that can be understood throughout the geographical region.
3) Dialects are in itself not less than the standard apart from lacking the functionality of 2). If you spend your entire life living in the Cibao region, you're probably better off speaking the local dialect. If you want to travel around you're probably better off speaking a Spanish that's closer to the standard as this will make it easier to be more widely understood.
Social connotation:
4) Speaking a dialect of alternatively the standard language will mark you as a person of a certain social grouping.
5) As higher social strate tend to be more internationally oriented, they tend to speak a language closer to the standard language.
6) Because of 5) the dialects themselves are usually held in lower esteem than the standard.
Fun or fashion
7) Over periods of time or when moving in certain circles it can be fashionable or fun to adopt different accents or dialects. It can also lead to a greater acceptance within social sub-strata (in-crowd behavior).
8) These fads tend to fade over time, giving rise to new fashionable language elements. Due to this I would not recommend keeping the fashionable dialects as your main language as it will mark you as 'backward' as soon as the fashion changes again.
For the reasons mentioned above I always prefer to start out with the standard and adapt according to the circumstances, as the standard language is the more generally applicable tool.
However, I thoroughly enjoyed it when people asked me if I was from Spain in the beginning (Domenicans can be very polite to gringos) and now ask me how long I have lived in the DR.
Just my two cents.
MD
Referring to the numerous posts in this thread:
It seems a bit rich to me how so many of you criticise Dominican Spanish and yet purport to live in a foreign country without bothering to learn even a basic smattering of the language. The furthest most of you stretch is 'chopo', 'tiguere' and 'una fr?a'.
I'm completely fluent in Spanish (I learnt my Spanish in Valladolid, which is considered the 'capital' of Castillian Spanish) and I find absolutely nothing wrong with the ways Dominicans speak. It's just a dialect, a style of speech, a regional variation. Surely it's to be expected that a country with as many varied cultural and racial influences as the DR should reflect these diverse roots in its language and forms of expression?! Also, as Chirimoya quite rightly points out, the dropping of the 's' is simply is a throwback to the past, the influence of the many Andalusians and Canary Islanders who settled there.
I admit there some Dominicanisms that could almost be described as offensive to the ears (e.g. 'casimente', which, of course, doesn't exist, 'hallar' pronounced with a strong 'h' sound and 'ajol?' instead of 'ojal?'!!) but, to tell you the truth, I find those kinds of things quite endearing. Also, if you ask most Dominicans (unless you're dealing with people from EXTREMELY disadvantaged, uneducated sectors of society) they generally know what the correct thing to say is. It's simply a matter of habit and making use of that well-known linguistic phenomenon, 'economy of language'.
And I'ld just like to make one final point. We must not forget that a large number of the people using this forum are Americans (I'm Irish - the English we use here is much closer to the standard Queen's English than that of the good people of the USA). Americans, of all English speakers in the world, have perhaps the least right to criticise regional variations language evolution in other languages. This is, after all, the nation, which (like Dominicans) use terms/words which simply do not exist in the standard language. E.g. 'ahead of time' - it is impossible to do anything 'ahead of time' as, obviously, time will always be faster than we are. The correct term is either 'in advance' or 'beforehand'. Other examples are such inexplicable expressions as 'in back' (behind) or 'alright already' (this particular little gem is not easily explained. We know that it roughly means 'that's enough' but only through years of exposure to US TV have we been able to figure this out. If you actually take the phrase on its own merits, it makes absolutely no sense.)
So, before you all make fun of Dominican Spanish, you should do two things:
1. Try to learn a bit of the language so that you actually know what you're talking about - they're not that hard to understand, you know!
2. Try to look a bit closer to home for 'linguistic incompetence' before attacking others. At the end of the day, at least the DR can explain some of its less cultured speech patterns through poor education and/or socio-economic circumstances. What excuse does the USA have for general bad grammar and incessant double negatives (e.g. I ain't going nowhere) in a large percentage of its population? Inbreeding?!!
I think I've made my point.
By the way Chirimoya, where are you from? From what you've sent in some of your posts, I presume Gibraltar?
It seems a bit rich to me how so many of you criticise Dominican Spanish and yet purport to live in a foreign country without bothering to learn even a basic smattering of the language. The furthest most of you stretch is 'chopo', 'tiguere' and 'una fr?a'.
I'm completely fluent in Spanish (I learnt my Spanish in Valladolid, which is considered the 'capital' of Castillian Spanish) and I find absolutely nothing wrong with the ways Dominicans speak. It's just a dialect, a style of speech, a regional variation. Surely it's to be expected that a country with as many varied cultural and racial influences as the DR should reflect these diverse roots in its language and forms of expression?! Also, as Chirimoya quite rightly points out, the dropping of the 's' is simply is a throwback to the past, the influence of the many Andalusians and Canary Islanders who settled there.
I admit there some Dominicanisms that could almost be described as offensive to the ears (e.g. 'casimente', which, of course, doesn't exist, 'hallar' pronounced with a strong 'h' sound and 'ajol?' instead of 'ojal?'!!) but, to tell you the truth, I find those kinds of things quite endearing. Also, if you ask most Dominicans (unless you're dealing with people from EXTREMELY disadvantaged, uneducated sectors of society) they generally know what the correct thing to say is. It's simply a matter of habit and making use of that well-known linguistic phenomenon, 'economy of language'.
And I'ld just like to make one final point. We must not forget that a large number of the people using this forum are Americans (I'm Irish - the English we use here is much closer to the standard Queen's English than that of the good people of the USA). Americans, of all English speakers in the world, have perhaps the least right to criticise regional variations language evolution in other languages. This is, after all, the nation, which (like Dominicans) use terms/words which simply do not exist in the standard language. E.g. 'ahead of time' - it is impossible to do anything 'ahead of time' as, obviously, time will always be faster than we are. The correct term is either 'in advance' or 'beforehand'. Other examples are such inexplicable expressions as 'in back' (behind) or 'alright already' (this particular little gem is not easily explained. We know that it roughly means 'that's enough' but only through years of exposure to US TV have we been able to figure this out. If you actually take the phrase on its own merits, it makes absolutely no sense.)
So, before you all make fun of Dominican Spanish, you should do two things:
1. Try to learn a bit of the language so that you actually know what you're talking about - they're not that hard to understand, you know!
2. Try to look a bit closer to home for 'linguistic incompetence' before attacking others. At the end of the day, at least the DR can explain some of its less cultured speech patterns through poor education and/or socio-economic circumstances. What excuse does the USA have for general bad grammar and incessant double negatives (e.g. I ain't going nowhere) in a large percentage of its population? Inbreeding?!!
I think I've made my point.
By the way Chirimoya, where are you from? From what you've sent in some of your posts, I presume Gibraltar?
Hey! That's a perfectly cromulent word![B]carolinet[/B] said:
Your point taken, and interesting post by the way, but you didn't have to be so harsh on your cousins of the north. Should anyone take this as a cue to start the regularly scheduled American-bash posts will be promply deleted. Please don't your waste your timing typing any such posts or mine having to delete them.
what a great thread
Anyone planning on learning or in the process of learning Spanish (like me) AND planning on living in the DR should read this. It forces us to give more thought to what type of Spanish we are actually learning, and how speaking same will reflect on us while moving in different circles. After reading all of this I have decided to put more effort into learning "book" Spanish and be more aware of slang as I pick up different terms and pronunciations and incorporate them into my vocabulary. Thanks Pib, Chiri, Jane-J and Porfio and others for the great posts here.
Larry
Anyone planning on learning or in the process of learning Spanish (like me) AND planning on living in the DR should read this. It forces us to give more thought to what type of Spanish we are actually learning, and how speaking same will reflect on us while moving in different circles. After reading all of this I have decided to put more effort into learning "book" Spanish and be more aware of slang as I pick up different terms and pronunciations and incorporate them into my vocabulary. Thanks Pib, Chiri, Jane-J and Porfio and others for the great posts here.
Larry
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