Hait's religious leader

[getthesenets]

amazing!!! i have been looking for a book like this for ages! tell me does it give in depth detailed history of the black slave traders and tribal leaders that sold there own people into slavery? because i have been studying the subject and think it is simply amazing. i love to see how africans and europeans have so much in common. and all for 9 dollars :squareeye

Actually goes into great detail about which tribal leaders DID and did not involve themselves in the slave trade.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are smart enough to know that there are hundreds of ethnic groups in Africa...so selling "their own people" in a literal sense was quite rare. Selling rival groups, prisoners of war, or just allowing "slave raids" did occur......the capture and selling of HUMAN BEINGS......shameful.
The entry(quite large) about internal Slave trade that did and does occur in Africa is quite detailed......

These are recognized SCHOLARS involved in this book, not amateurs.They don't hide the truth or revise history. They tell the FULL story.....they'd be insulting the intelligence of the reader if they didn't.

 

[dave6]

Actually goes into great detail about which tribal leaders DID and did not involve themselves in the slave trade.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are smart enough to know that there are hundreds of ethnic groups in Africa...so selling "their own people" in a literal sense was quite rare. Selling rival groups, prisoners of war, or just allowing "slave raids" did occur......the capture and selling of HUMAN BEINGS......shameful.
The entry(quite large) about internal Slave trade that did and does occur in Africa is quite detailed......

These are recognized SCHOLARS involved in this book, not amateurs.They don't hide the truth or revise history. They tell the FULL story.....they'd be insulting the intelligence of the reader if they didn't.

i thought all black people wanted to be united? i always heard the phrase ((we are all africans!)) there they were selling there own racial kin to those european people, makes you wonder does it not? and all for 9 dollars :cheeky:

 

[getthesenets]

Your post about whites in Haiti CONSCIOUSLY omitted the history of Blacks and whites in Haiti and what their relationship was.

I pointed that out, a few people agreed that it was a valid point but that it went against the purpose of this board to discuss those matters.



THIS is a thread about Voudou and how it is interpreted by the American and global press.


I am older and smarter than you are, and in the proper setting I'll gladly debate you on any topic you wish, you can even PM.....but just be prepared.


Now, back to the topic....do you have anything to share? I mean you ACTUALLY live in Haiti,correct? Consider yourself a full Haitian? Why haven't you added anything relevant to this thread?

 

[getthesenets]

BACK to the TOPIC


here's a clip of the film "The Comedians"

The Comedians trailer


====================================================
Here is a clip which explores Hollywood's portrayal of Haiti and voudou

YouTube - Haiti and Horror Movies

 

[bob saunders]

Haitian Vodun (Voodoo) - Assata Shakur Speaks - Hands Off Assata - Let's Get Free - Revolutionary - Pan-Africanism - Black On Purpose - Liberation - Forum

 

[puryear270]

Haitian Vodun (Voodoo) - Assata Shakur Speaks - Hands Off Assata - Let's Get Free - Revolutionary - Pan-Africanism - Black On Purpose - Liberation - Forum

Informative article, but she completely left out the Duvaliers and their use of Voodoo for their purposes. I'd be curious how the beliefs and practices of Voodoo were affected by this. Was there a lasting impact on the beliefs and practices of Voodoo?

The documentary mentioned in the post before was great, and very enlightening. As well, I'm curious as to how the rest of the west's thinking regarding Voodoo was influenced by the Duvalier regimes. It seems as if horror film as a genre developed in the United States at the same time that Papa Doc was in power, and with his regime being so close to the United States, there had to have been some influence.

 

[dave6]

Your post about whites in Haiti CONSCIOUSLY omitted the history of Blacks and whites in Haiti and what their relationship was.

I pointed that out, a few people agreed that it was a valid point but that it went against the purpose of this board to discuss those matters.



THIS is a thread about Voudou and how it is interpreted by the American and global press.


I am older and smarter than you are, and in the proper setting I'll gladly debate you on any topic you wish, you can even PM.....but just be prepared.


Now, back to the topic....do you have anything to share? I mean you ACTUALLY live in Haiti,correct? Consider yourself a full Haitian? Why haven't you added anything relevant to this thread?

false you did not watch my film because we mentioned how the spanish and french bought african slaves and flooded the Island with them several times threw out the video with historic illustrations, it seems you did not pay attention my all knowing wise elder.

why are you angry my all knowing wise elder of mine. i was simply interested in your afrocentric book and that was on topic. yes i live in Haiti and like Africans from the USA, Haiti or any other place in the world who call themselves african before any other creed i consider myself a Caucasian with my blood lines from the southern latin romans and Germanic people before i consider myself anything, and it is not a crime to be proud of who you are and where your ancestors are from.
please carry on i do not want to hinder your voudou discussion, or take you off track, and there is no point in a debate you admitted to everything i wanted to prove and i think you will have less to feel frustrated over when you actually sit and watch the film in its whole and see that your attacks against it are unfounded

 

[Chip]

I don't necessarily see how the uprising of the enslaved Africans in Aiyiti is any different

??? It appears you didn't read my post.

 

[getthesenets]

Informative article, but she completely left out the Duvaliers and their use of Voodoo for their purposes. I'd be curious how the beliefs and practices of Voodoo were affected by this. Was there a lasting impact on the beliefs and practices of Voodoo?

The documentary mentioned in the post before was great, and very enlightening. As well, I'm curious as to how the rest of the west's thinking regarding Voodoo was influenced by the Duvalier regimes. It seems as if horror film as a genre developed in the United States at the same time that Papa Doc was in power, and with his regime being so close to the United States, there had to have been some influence.

I'm going to read the assata shakur link and reply.


horror genre existed before Duvalier...he took office in 1957...what happens is, the US occupied Haiti from 1915-34...and soldiers/personnel stationed there who saw some of the rituals and imagery of voudou wrote about it..and that's what brought into into the american and western popular culture.
Haiti was pretty isolated before that, but because of the revolution and defeating the French...she had always been vilified in the western press.


Duvalier's "veil" was lifted by the film, The Comedians...the brutality, the megalomania, the incompetence.

 

[getthesenets]

false you did not watch my film because we mentioned how the spanish and french bought african slaves and flooded the Island with them several times threw out the video with historic illustrations, it seems you did not pay attention my all knowing wise elder.

why are you angry my all knowing wise elder of mine. i was simply interested in your afrocentric book and that was on topic. yes i live in Haiti and like Africans from the USA, Haiti or any other place in the world who call themselves african before any other creed i consider myself a Caucasian with my blood lines from the southern latin romans and Germanic people before i consider myself anything, and it is not a crime to be proud of who you are and where your ancestors are from.
please carry on i do not want to hinder your voudou discussion, or take you off track, and there is no point in a debate you admitted to everything i wanted to prove and i think you will have less to feel frustrated over when you actually sit and watch the film in its whole and see that your attacks against it are unfounded

interesting, entire posts of mine which veered off the direct subject of threads mysteriously "vanished"..but this repeated violation by you of the accepted rules about relevance is allowed. wow?

Did you really put the doc. out or are you an associate of the person who did. My INITIAL comments in the "white" Haitian thread mentioned that I had seen the FIRST part of the doc. and I questioned why the OPENING, from a linear sense mentioned Dessalines killing and sparing some whites BEFORE it even mentioned what the nature of the relationship between the whites and Africans were on Haiti. The letter A comes BEFORE the letter G.


Had you not been so personally offended, you could have just told me that....ok, fair cirticism, but the history of slavery and the french/spanish role is mentioned LATER on in the doc. But you didn't.....in fact after numerous replies, this is your first time mentioning it.

You could have answered my QUESTION..and diffused the situation in one fell swoop. Go back and re read my comments and tell me that this isn't the case.


Any comments about the THREAD topic?

 

[getthesenets]

I'm going to read the assata shakur link and reply.

Read it. pretty good overview. She did mention Duvalier bringing Voudou out of the underground and "rehabilitating" it.

For her to go into more detail..she'd need an additional 3 paragraphs to describe Duvalier's background, the historic power struggles in Haiti, the volatility of Haitian politics, and the reasons why Duvalier elected to co-opt so much of voudou's mysticism/imagery.

It's a decent overview of voudou though.

Any book you get your hands on about papa doc's life will go into further detail. and like I said....the Africana encyclopedia is worth getting. I've loaned my copy out or I'd just scan the entry about Voudou, and African faith systems that were transported to the west. hemisphere

 

[puryear270]

I'll be in the US in a couple of weeks and will see if I can find the book. Should make for a great read.

By the way, and this is off topic, I recognize Henry Louis Gates Jr. from the beer summit.

 

[dave6]

interesting, entire posts of mine which veered off the direct subject of threads mysteriously "vanished"..but this repeated violation by you of the accepted rules about relevance is allowed. wow?

Did you really put the doc. out or are you an associate of the person who did. My INITIAL comments in the "white" Haitian thread mentioned that I had seen the FIRST part of the doc. and I questioned why the OPENING, from a linear sense mentioned Dessalines killing and sparing some whites BEFORE it even mentioned what the nature of the relationship between the whites and Africans were on Haiti. The letter A comes BEFORE the letter G.


Had you not been so personally offended, you could have just told me that....ok, fair cirticism, but the history of slavery and the french/spanish role is mentioned LATER on in the doc. But you didn't.....in fact after numerous replies, this is your first time mentioning it.

You could have answered my QUESTION..and diffused the situation in one fell swoop. Go back and re read my comments and tell me that this isn't the case.


Any comments about the THREAD topic?

i did answer you on thread about my documentary, i will not recite what i wrote because i do not want to ((violate)) the rules of the thread but if you would not judge a book by its cover there would not be a problem. with that being said, the pagan based sub Saharan African based religions are not a everyday part of my life aside from the fact the pounding of the drums and chants keep me awake many a night, though i have studied obeah back in Jamaica and Vaudou i have been to several rituals and a friend of mine is passionate about the subject and is a mystic of sorts, within every faith you can find good people and bad people and good aspects and negative, there are good people who are not the monsters that the western media make in these scary films but the problems within voadou are real and there is a dark side. i have no desire to really critique it because it is not my faith and want no real part of it.

 

[pedrochemical]

Laos - they are coming to get ya like the bogey man....
questions anybody?????

 

[MerengueDutchie]

Haitian Vodun (Voodoo) - Assata Shakur Speaks - Hands Off Assata - Let's Get Free - Revolutionary - Pan-Africanism - Black On Purpose - Liberation - Forum

Informative article, but she completely left out the Duvaliers and their use of Voodoo for their purposes. I'd be curious how the beliefs and practices of Voodoo were affected by this. Was there a lasting impact on the beliefs and practices of Voodoo?

The documentary mentioned in the post before was great, and very enlightening. As well, I'm curious as to how the rest of the west's thinking regarding Voodoo was influenced by the Duvalier regimes. It seems as if horror film as a genre developed in the United States at the same time that Papa Doc was in power, and with his regime being so close to the United States, there had to have been some influence.

Read it. pretty good overview. She did mention Duvalier bringing Voudou out of the underground and "rehabilitating" it.

For her to go into more detail..she'd need an additional 3 paragraphs to describe Duvalier's background, the historic power struggles in Haiti, the volatility of Haitian politics, and the reasons why Duvalier elected to co-opt so much of voudou's mysticism/imagery.

It's a decent overview of voudou though.

Any book you get your hands on about papa doc's life will go into further detail. and like I said....the Africana encyclopedia is worth getting. I've loaned my copy out or I'd just scan the entry about Voudou, and African faith systems that were transported to the west. hemisphere

The original article by assatashakur is very informative but incorrect on about half of the points she makes.

I suggest those that do want to be informed about the Vodun/Voodoo practices consult a houngan, they should be fairly open to give a general outline of their practices.

Under Duvalier Vodun was state religion of Ayiti. However, it was quickly appropriated by Duvalier as an instrument of supression. During his reign the more darker aspects of Vodun were brought to the fore as opposed to the more lighter aspects. (Red vs white loa's or Preta (hot) vs funfun (cool))..

A good example is his usage of the Ton ton Macoute's militia. Originally ton ton Macoute was an agricultural loa and had many uses in fertilising and as a guardian, unde rDuvalier they turned that image into a thug militia.

Furthermore Duvalier's association with Baron Samedi was used to further his own position of supernatural power.

Both instances should not be condoned against his own people and have left the roles of these loa's permantently altered within the practices.

 

[getthesenets]

i did answer you on thread about my documentary, i will not recite what i wrote because i do not want to ((violate)) the rules of the thread but if you would not judge a book by its cover there would not be a problem. with that being said, the pagan based sub Saharan African based religions are not a everyday part of my life aside from the fact the pounding of the drums and chants keep me awake many a night,


, within every faith you can find good people and bad people and good aspects and negative, there are good people who are not the monsters that the western media make in these scary films but the problems within voadou are real and there is a dark side. i have no desire to really critique it because it is not my faith and want no real part of it.

the description in red describes about 85% of the origins of modern day Haitian culture..including language, food, customs. The vast majority of the populace is fully or partially from the exact "pagan" sub Saharan AFRICAN region. You take pains to assert that you are "Haitian" so I assumed that regardless of what your personal beliefs were that you could speak with some authority about most aspects of Haitian culture. I figured that you had studied, on your own, as I did.

I'm glad you posted the line though because, it was the strength that the Africans drew upon from spiritual "pagan" faith and a complete detachment from the forced acculturation that the French imposed christianity.

The maroon societies in the other colonies in the Americas were composed of Africans who retained and held on to their core beliefs and who never succumbed to the slavers' imposed culture.

the imposed christianity was taught to have the slave accept their fate as slaves and wish for freedom in the afterlife.


I also think that you are misusing the term "pagan". On Dec. 25 if you're opening presents with family....you're practicing a "pagan" custom..albiet a European, which has been absorbed into European culture...SEVERAL other of customs, holidays, traditions that YOU observe are from "pagan" origins also. ..but they aren't "sub Saharan African" so I guess they are OK.

 

[getthesenets]

The original article by assatashakur is very informative but incorrect on about half of the points she makes.




I disagree. I think this is actually a very detailed overview, partly because it talks about the variations of voudou .... by the dominant ethnic group present in the particular section of Haiti where it developed. food preparation, dialect, and habits differ between regions of Haiti....so obviously there would be variants of voudou.

I suggest those that do want to be informed about the Vodun/Voodoo practices consult a houngan, they should be fairly open to give a general outline of their practices.


disagree again. academia and scholarship exists so that knowledge and information is available to a wide spectrum of people. Haitian and French scholars have done research and conducted interviews that have formed the foundation of academic knowledge about Voudou.Professors around the world with resources, have gone to the regions of Africa where the faith originated and done research and interviews there. As a result, there is no shortage of books, articles about voudou that technically provide a more detailed history,comparison, etc of voudou than what a local houngan may know.



Under Duvalier Vodun was state religion of Ayiti. However, it was quickly appropriated by Duvalier as an instrument of supression. During his reign the more darker aspects of Vodun were brought to the fore as opposed to the more lighter aspects. (Red vs white loa's or Preta (hot) vs funfun (cool))..

A good example is his usage of the Ton ton Macoute's militia. Originally ton ton Macoute was an agricultural loa and had many uses in fertilising and as a guardian, unde rDuvalier they turned that image into a thug militia.

Furthermore Duvalier's association with Baron Samedi was used to further his own position of supernatural power.

Both instances should not be condoned against his own people and have left the roles of these loa's permantently altered within the practices.

Agree. Co-opted the aspects that fit his ultimate goal....which was CONTROL.....he did it to undermine the authority and power of the church(which was representative of an outside power). Voudou was in the fabric of the country...he just tapped into it.
For a modern day equivalent, think of Bush running for his second term...not having much to run on in terms of results and policy victories....started making abortion/gay marriage an issue..and took the "Christian" "conservative" stance....despite being incredibly unpopular...he WON.

the tonton macoute, was a bogeyman so to speak in the tradition......not quite a benevolent figure as you're implying.

..........................................................................

 

[dave6]

the description in red describes about 85% of the origins of modern day Haitian culture..including language, food, customs. The vast majority of the populace is fully or partially from the exact "pagan" sub Saharan AFRICAN region. You take pains to assert that you are "Haitian" so I assumed that regardless of what your personal beliefs were that you could speak with some authority about most aspects of Haitian culture. I figured that you had studied, on your own, as I did.

I'm glad you posted the line though because, it was the strength that the Africans drew upon from spiritual "pagan" faith and a complete detachment from the forced acculturation that the French imposed christianity.

The maroon societies in the other colonies in the Americas were composed of Africans who retained and held on to their core beliefs and who never succumbed to the slavers' imposed culture.

the imposed christianity was taught to have the slave accept their fate as slaves and wish for freedom in the afterlife.


I also think that you are misusing the term "pagan". On Dec. 25 if you're opening presents with family....you're practicing a "pagan" custom..albiet a European, which has been absorbed into European culture...SEVERAL other of customs, holidays, traditions that YOU observe are from "pagan" origins also. ..but they aren't "sub Saharan African" so I guess they are OK.

85 percent of the culture? interesting claim you are making, i suppose kreyol is 85 percent african? i suppose 85 percent of Haiti and its architecture is african? i suppose most people favor african clothes, the music is purely african? food??? au parle kreyol? m bezwen pou kompran. Konbyen tan wap passe nan Ayiti. there is no doubt that african culture plays a huge role in Haitian culture and the majority of its people, i simply said voodoo is not part of my life being it is not my religion, and many many many other People in Haiti share the same feeling on the ((pagan)) based religions as i do, i take a much more tolerant stance than your protestant Haitian or even many devout non Vodou practicing catholics take on this subject so ease up no one is attacking you or vodou. you are extremely volatile you tell me you are a elder and smarter than me but you take offense to everything said and cry and whine. it is hard for me to respect you when you take such a volatile stance on everything said. i simply said it is something i take little interest on in a personal sense, but i can tell you all about the Loa, baron samdie and his role and power, i can tell you about how vodou religion plays a role Haitian music, i can tell you about different customs and rituals within ceremony. i have even filmed several rituals in the nord of Haiti, just not for my faith.

 

[MerengueDutchie]

..........................................................................

I think we should agree to disagree...

Most interviews, esp done by visiting scholars, do not contain the full thruth about the practice so 'scholarly' works are not always accurate.

I agree on the regional variation which brings with it the conclusion (for me at least) that the best way to get hold of a pure strain is to talk to a practicioner who will give you his version undiluted, up to the point it can be disclosed to non Vooduosaints. The difficulty with much of the ' scholarly work' is that they mix various regions or try to establish a common base and end up confusing more than helping.

By putting 'scholarly' in parentheses I don't mean to belittle the efforts or honesty of the scholar in question it is just that the result in many cases is incorrect.

 

[getthesenets]

Merengue,

what do you think of this interview?

Studies in Vodoun: A primer about Haitian Vodou



We can agree to disagree, but one clarification. You mentioned visiting scholars. I pointed out that the foundation for modern day understanding of the faith is based on Haitian and French scholars, on the ground in Haiti doing the research...and in most cases being from the regions and speaking the language of the people.