No offense but I wasn't raised to only help those people that I share the same religion or ideology with. It's a shame people think like this. I think voodo has done nothing good for Haiti but this hasn't stopped me from giving money and my time and traveling there to help too.
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Hait's religious leader
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No offense but I wasn't raised to only help those people that I share the same religion or ideology with. It's a shame people think like this. I think voodo has done nothing good for Haiti but this hasn't stopped me from giving money and my time and traveling there to help too.
pedrochemical;922989 Holy crap dude!!! Did I assert that? Sorry - you seem like that rare case that is actually thinking about his stuff. Sorry if I implied anything else - I get a little over the top sometimes. Again - apologies. I shall tone it down a bit.[/QUOTE said:
no disrespect, but your comments on the first page of this thread saying that "voudou" was something created to kill white people points to the fact that maybe you should do some basic research or studying of Haiti.
A lot of people give money and their time to "help" people, but before you really help anyone you have to respect them and understand them.
Haitians are human beings, after all.....not a "cause" like save the whales.
I do respect honesty though, so if you honestly believed that..you have to go back and question/challenge the reasons you accepted this without checking it out. and maybe find out what else you've been mislead about.
According to the source I posted Vodoo started here in the DR as a means to garner support among slaves to get their freedom (a good thing) while invoking the devil and promising to massacre and the innocent without regard (a bad thing).
I don't seem to remember that my time volunteering in Haiti after the earthquake that anybody was rejecting all the free medecine and smiles I was giving out. Maybe you ought to leave your pc manual at home and use common sense instead.
An offensive quote about which I will not comment.
ok,You took offense. Wasn't the intention. Perhaps at a later time..weeks, months...years...come back and read this thread again.
You'll see the truth in what I'm saying and the intent behind it.
You will see the problem with using wiki as a source also.
You'll see the truth in what I'm saying and the intent behind it.
You will see the problem with using wiki as a source also.
What that at 45 years I haven't learned how to love my fellow man regardless of religious conviction, color etc? Rather I'm sure your opinion will change.
Just proves that you didn't even bother to check my source before making such a blanket statement. Here is the original source - I hope you find it "good" enough:
http://www.ci.miami.fl.us/haiti2004/history.htm
at bottom of article
This information was taken from www.discoverhaiti.com
and when you click that url... the OBVIOUS happens,,
go ahead, click the Source for the link you provided
@ Chip - It is not completely balanced to take ONE 'historical account' and conclude that Voodoo was created to kill the innocent. I mean think about it, how reasonable does that sound?? If a person or a group of people wanted to just kill innocent people, they would not need some other reason to do so. Voodoo is simply a belief system, and for the record there are MANY Haitian that DO NOT practice Voodoo. Period. For example, 6 out of 56 Kingdom Halls (Jehovah's Witnesses) were considerably damaged during the January earthquake. in 2009 there were 221 congregations in Haiti, there is normally an average of 35 - 85 people in each congregation. So, you are talking about 15,000 - 18,000 people at the least. Keep in mind, Jehovah's Witnesses are a minority religion.
Interestingly enough the CIA sums it up in the following manner: "Religions:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16% (Baptist 10%, Pentecostal 4%, Adventist 1%, other 1%), none 1%, other 3%
note: roughly half of the population practices voodoo"
So HOW is it that 80 percent are Catholic, but yet HALF the population practice voodoo??? Because, in reality people just assume so. They see a group of people watching some voodoo looking ceremony and assume that ALL of them are voodoo practitioners. But if you went to a Boxing match, would you assume that everyone in the building is a professional Boxer??? Of course not. Most people simply can't define the difference between part of a culture that INCLUDES voodoo and a person that actually PRACTICES voodoo.
Notice the following exercise - Haiti, HIV, Voodoo/Germany, Nazi, Hitler.
Reasonableness will lead you to the correct conclusion.
Interestingly enough the CIA sums it up in the following manner: "Religions:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16% (Baptist 10%, Pentecostal 4%, Adventist 1%, other 1%), none 1%, other 3%
note: roughly half of the population practices voodoo"
So HOW is it that 80 percent are Catholic, but yet HALF the population practice voodoo??? Because, in reality people just assume so. They see a group of people watching some voodoo looking ceremony and assume that ALL of them are voodoo practitioners. But if you went to a Boxing match, would you assume that everyone in the building is a professional Boxer??? Of course not. Most people simply can't define the difference between part of a culture that INCLUDES voodoo and a person that actually PRACTICES voodoo.
Notice the following exercise - Haiti, HIV, Voodoo/Germany, Nazi, Hitler.
Reasonableness will lead you to the correct conclusion.
here is one translation of the prayer that was spoken on that day in Bwa Caiman
Good Lord who hath made the sun that shines upon us, that riseth from the sea, who maketh the storm to roar; and governeth the thunders, The Lord is hidden in the heavens, and there He watcheth over us. The Lord seeth what the blancs have done. Their god commandeth crimes, ours giveth blessings upon us. The Good Lord hath ordained vengeance. He will give strength to our arms and courage to our hearts. He shall sustain us. Cast down the image of the god of the blancs, because he maketh the tears to flow from our eyes. Hearken unto Liberty that speaketh now in all your hearts. (Heinl p. 43)
Had I or any of my ancestors been there at the time, we would have joined in.
As I do now.
Good Lord who hath made the sun that shines upon us, that riseth from the sea, who maketh the storm to roar; and governeth the thunders, The Lord is hidden in the heavens, and there He watcheth over us. The Lord seeth what the blancs have done. Their god commandeth crimes, ours giveth blessings upon us. The Good Lord hath ordained vengeance. He will give strength to our arms and courage to our hearts. He shall sustain us. Cast down the image of the god of the blancs, because he maketh the tears to flow from our eyes. Hearken unto Liberty that speaketh now in all your hearts. (Heinl p. 43)
Had I or any of my ancestors been there at the time, we would have joined in.
As I do now.
1)"Unfortunately we've all become too pc anymore to see the problems with a religion started for the purpose of indiscriminately massacring people innocent and non alike. Here is an excerpt from a historical account:"
2)"According to the source I posted Vodoo started here in the DR"
How did you read THAT article and arrive at the two points listed above?
When I read your first comment, I assumed that the wiki link you posted stated that(it didn't)..so I dismissed it as internet nonsense..and typical wikipedia stuff.
NOWHERE in that article does it state what you said and it would be quite a stretch for a person to come to either of the two conclusions you arrived at.
DEEP BREATHS, PLEASE.
We were having what I felt to be an educational discussion on this forum. At least, I was learning quite a bit.
And I still have questions:
I was reading today about Trujillo's portrayal of Haitians. I think we all can agree that he did not have a very positive opinion of the black residents on the western third of the island. How did his opinions affect and effect views on vodou?
Is vodou mostly an oral-tradition? I know there are books and articles written about it, but does vodou have any sort of writings that would be akin to a scripture?
And on a related note, from my understanding, (and I think I'm over-simplifying) images of the saints were co-opted to disguise the loas so that religious and secular authorities would not become suspicious. Was the Bible used in this manner as well?
And lastly (for now), after re-reading the CNN article that prompted this thread, it sounds like the reporter was stretching reality just a bit to quote Max Beauvoir, Supreme Servitor, as the leader of vodou in Haiti. The Christian analogy would be those evangelical groups where each local church is independent although associated with a denomination because of similar beliefs. Comments?
We were having what I felt to be an educational discussion on this forum. At least, I was learning quite a bit.
And I still have questions:
I was reading today about Trujillo's portrayal of Haitians. I think we all can agree that he did not have a very positive opinion of the black residents on the western third of the island. How did his opinions affect and effect views on vodou?
Is vodou mostly an oral-tradition? I know there are books and articles written about it, but does vodou have any sort of writings that would be akin to a scripture?
And on a related note, from my understanding, (and I think I'm over-simplifying) images of the saints were co-opted to disguise the loas so that religious and secular authorities would not become suspicious. Was the Bible used in this manner as well?
And lastly (for now), after re-reading the CNN article that prompted this thread, it sounds like the reporter was stretching reality just a bit to quote Max Beauvoir, Supreme Servitor, as the leader of vodou in Haiti. The Christian analogy would be those evangelical groups where each local church is independent although associated with a denomination because of similar beliefs. Comments?
First of all it should state Haiti and not the DR. As far as where I got my opinion:
In August 1791, Boukman presided in the role of houngan (priest) together with an African-born priestess and conducted a freedom ceremony at the Bois Ca?man and prophesied that the slaves Jean Fran?ois, Biassou, and Jeannot would be leaders of a resistance movement and revolt that would free the slaves of Saint-Domingue. An animal, which symbolized the wild, free, and untameable spiritual power of the forest and the ancestors, was sacrificed, an oath was taken, and Boukman and the priestess exhorted the listeners to take revenge against their French oppressors and "[c]ast aside the image of the God of the oppressors." [4] According to the Encyclopedia of African Religion, "Blood from the animal, and some say from humans as well, was given in a drink to the attendees to seal their fates in loyalty to the cause of liberation of Sainte-Domingue."[5]
4.^ Charles Arthur and Michael Dash (eds.) Lib?te: A Haiti Anthology (Princeton, NJ: Markus Wiener Publishers, 1999), 36.
5.^ Molefi Kete Asante and Ama Mazama. Encyclopedia of African religion, Volume 1 Sage Publications, p. 131.
This is Boukman's prayer:
This prayer, from the ceremony at Bwa Kayiman, has been traditionally been ascribed to Boukman: "The god who created the earth; who created the sun that gives us light.The god who holds up the ocean; who makes the thunder roar. Our God who has ears to hear. You who are hidden in the clouds; who watch us from where you are. You see all that the white has made us suffer. The white man's god asks him to commit crimes. But the god within us wants to do good. Our god, who is so good, so just, He orders us to revenge our wrongs. It's He who will direct our arms and bring us the victory. It's He who will assist us. We all should throw away the image of the white men's god who is so pitiless. Listen to the voice for liberty that sings in all our hearts."
Boukman - TLP
1. Yes Vodou is an oral tradition and is learned and passed on in this way. Despite what others may say, real effect is not created through reading but through action. Simliar to Abramic faiths, you can read the bibke but until you live the precepts you re not a christian, jew or muslim.
2. Yes images of saints were syncretised with the loa's to disguise the tradition, which was supressed by the slaveholders. This has also attributed to the Vodou religion deviating from the original African strain as imagery was blurred.
I don't doubt the honesty of your search Chip, but one should not always believe the human sacrifice stories.
Human sacrifice was quite common in primitive beliefs. Ignoring this fact out of convenience will not make it disappear.
Thanks Bob, this is what I understood.
I will repeat that any religion that relies on hurting one's neighbor in order to get ahead is unworthy such is the case of vodoo where spells are cast on one's opponent for one's own betterment. There are other issues too.
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