Hippo a hero? A major fraud took place

[Tordok]

Not so fast! I can defend it morally with ease! In a free society you are entitiled to all the fruits and benifits of your labors. A person who works hard and is sucessful is morally entitiled to expect and recieve benifits for his acts. That includes politics. Un-sucessfull people have not earned this right and do not deserve it.

Why should a chicken thief have as much influence over a politician as I do?
Should a Motoconcho driver in the D.R. have as much influence over the President as a Sucessfull business man?

OK Tony, one last time: in principle, you are correct. But we do not live in an Ayn Rand novel, where good guys and bad guys are clear-cut characters of fiction. Your libertarian rhetoric works fine in theory, but your application is perpetuating the opposite by supporting corrupt practices.
I'm sure that you are an upstanding individual of high moral standards in your dealings with politicos, but your statements are essentially condoning sociopathic behavior in the real world.

Political contributions should be made to lobby special interests, not special individuals. Thus in real life, when the well-connected gain special access to politicians it becomes a vicious cycle of quid pro quo, - "dando y dando"- effectively denying other hardworking, honest citizens of similar special benefits.

You should have access to policy-makers based on the merits of your ideas and not based on how much money, honestly earned or not, you have given them. You may very well have earned having more influence than the chicken thief, but the moment that someone like you or me also breaks the law, just because you paid into the system does not morally absolve you from the offense. Favoritisms in the public arena is plain wrong. What works for you today may not work as well tomorrow, simply because you may have given moeny to the wrong politician. Then, I'm sure you would cry foul.

In the eyes of the law, without which neither your nor the marginalized guy have ANY rights, you both should expect the same treatment from the officials placed in those positions, not by your money alone, but by the votes of the majority -including motoconchistas. This is a very basic premise of democratic living. Like I said before, I'll keep my interpretation of the issue and you keep yours. Good luck.

-Tordok

 

[Tony C]

I don't live in a Aynn Rand Novel nor do you live in Woodstock circa 1969. I do not care to live in any society in which a chicken theif or a moto-conchista has the same access to politicians or rights as me. That would be disastorous for society as awhole as those who have not are are that way for a very basic reason. They fail. If Society was to allow them equal access and influence they would fail at that as well.
The D.R. is a perfect example of this.

 

[deelt]

Tony C
The fact that you think this way is a scary thought. I also believe this is the reason that the country is in the pickle it is in. Why? Because, what you have just said is what the Baninter benefactors probably believe as well. What happened there was a reflection of DR politics not of any one political party. This is a cross-partisan problem that leads to ensuring that the status quo prevails and corruption rules. As you said DR IS a perfect example.

Given the scarce resources of DR this also manifests itself in truly unjust policies that limits educational and professional opportunities.

If you want true economic change you need to provide real opportunity/voice to all. You would be amazed on how it will add to the country's bottomline. The US is a perfect example of this. Dominicans in the US have succeeded in ways they never would have been allowed in DR, per your theory. If such were the case then Dominicans should have failed in the US as well. And sorry, I don't see that happening in the states.

But like Tordok, I respect a difference of opinion and leave it at that.

I do not care to live in any society in which a chicken theif or a moto-conchista has the same access to politicians or rights as me.

If Society was to allow them equal access and influence they would fail at that as well.
The D.R. is a perfect example of this.

 

[Onions&carrots]

AZB, I get my information from a friend at Mossad, pretty interesting stuff regarding Powell.

Kris tell us gossip regarding Powell- inquiring minds want to knoW!?

 

[Tordok]

I don't live in a Aynn Rand Novel nor do you live in Woodstock circa 1969. I do not care to live in any society in which a chicken theif or a moto-conchista has the same access to politicians or rights as me. That would be disastorous for society as awhole as those who have not are are that way for a very basic reason. They fail. If Society was to allow them equal access and influence they would fail at that as well.
The D.R. is a perfect example of this.

Tony C,
I have tried twice to end this discussion, but you keep using your idiosyncratic logic to keep at it. Your arguments are somewhat based on the libertarian credo of free-markets, individual responsibility and dynamism, minimal role for government, etc.. yet you contradict the basic tenets of that philosophy by supporting unequal standing among people based on their ability to pay their way into special favors from the people (public officials) who are supposed to be the impartial arbiters of bona-fide competing interests.

Even in your capitalist utopia, there must be game rules -a legal framework- in order for free trade and enterprise to flourish; courts, police, etc.. Without these an anarchic, "rules of the jungle" society is what you get. I know the libertarian literature, I am very familiar with the 'objectivist' dogma, and I know people who very honorably live by it. Sounds like your version of it, and in fact your recipe for success in a Laissez-Faire system would be to grease the officials so that you have unfair advantage over others. That's not free and fair competition, and that is not honorable. That's corruption and sociopathic greed.

Your contradictions reveal your rationalizations. If you're going to ascribe to a certain political belief system you must be consistent and apply its concepts accordingly. Seems to me that you actually apply them only when convenient and in disregard to what effects your behavior may have in the larger scheme of things. You also seem to think that you have a superior understanding of human nature and sociopolitical realities just because you have a good income. You assume that just because someone has not attained the same level of social or economic clout that you purport to have achieved, that all of these other folks are intrinsically not capable of doing the same. I'm sure some may lack the brain wattage- we do have different intellectual innate capabilites as individuals- but you fail to consider the effects that corruption and the social constructs of inequality have in blocking the ones who do have the cognitive tools but lack the means to making it. The Ubermensch deserve the title when conditions for success are equal. Following your logic is the capitalist version of encouraging steroid-enhancement in athletes cheating to win over the ones who don't.
- Tordok
p.s.- Woodstock '69 would be just groovy with me.

 

[Robert]

Tony C,
I have tried twice to end this discussion, but you keep using your idiosyncratic logic to keep at it. Your arguments are somewhat based on the libertarian credo of free-markets, individual responsibility and dynamism, minimal role for government, etc.. yet you contradict the basic tenets of that philosophy by supporting unequal standing among people based on their ability to pay their way into special favors from the people (public officials) who are supposed to be the impartial arbiters of bona-fide competing interests.

Even in your capitalist utopia, there must be game rules -a legal framework- in order for free trade and enterprise to flourish; courts, police, etc.. Without these an anarchic, "rules of the jungle" society is what you get. I know the libertarian literature, I am very familiar with the 'objectivist' dogma, and I know people who very honorably live by it. Sounds like your version of it, and in fact your recipe for success in a Laissez-Faire system would be to grease the officials so that you have unfair advantage over others. That's not free and fair competition, and that is not honorable. That's corruption and sociopathic greed.

Your contradictions reveal your rationalizations. If you're going to ascribe to a certain political belief system you must be consistent and apply its concepts accordingly. Seems to me that you actually apply them only when convenient and in disregard to what effects your behavior may have in the larger scheme of things. You also seem to think that you have a superior understanding of human nature and sociopolitical realities just because you have a good income. You assume that just because someone has not attained the same level of social or economic clout that you purport to have achieved, that all of these other folks are intrinsically not capable of doing the same. I'm sure some may lack the brain wattage- we do have different intellectual innate capabilites as individuals- but you fail to consider the effects that corruption and the social constructs of inequality have in blocking the ones who do have the cognitive tools but lack the means to making it. The Ubermensch deserve the title when conditions for success are equal. Following your logic is the capitalist version of encouraging steroid-enhancement in athletes cheating to win over the ones who don't.
- Tordok
p.s.- Woodstock '69 would be just groovy with me.

Now I call that, hitting the nail on the head!

 

[Tony C]

You guys are missing my point!
I am talking within a legal framework. If the influence peddler is using power & money from illegal actions it does not apply.

 

[Tordok]

Tony C.,
I opt to believe you when you say that you personally behave in a legal manner; but from reading some of your one-liners this is difficult to differentiate from an advocacy for bribery, even if unintended. Perhaps if we had been talking rather than airing this discussion over cyberspace, we would have understood one another a lot better already.

I know that we are not necessarily going to always agree -that would be boring- but we should try to be as clear and consistent as possible in our arguments in order to avoid unnecesary tangents during an otherwise healthy debate. To your credit, you have not been disrespectful as a few others are prone to be whenever in disagreement on this forum. I will sign off the public discussion of this specific issue now, so please PM me if there are any further aspects of this that we haven't already covered.
- Tordok

 

[Beatnut]

this post is so sad.

im gonna give you 6 months to remove your leonel stickers from your car.

i swear to god people have no recollection of 1996-2000

 

[NV_]

this post is so sad.

im gonna give you 6 months to remove your leonel stickers from your car.

i swear to god people have no recollection of 1996-2000

Anyone who still thinks that during '96-'00, the D.R. was worse off than it is now, must still be ticked off about the botella they will be losing on Aug. 16.

Name one thing about this country that is better off today, than it was 4 years ago???

The only thing that has been able to prosper in this country for the past 4 years are the botella holding "come yucas" who only give a rats a$$ about themselves and could care less if the D.R. sank to the bottom of the ocean. I assume you're one of them.

Some things I remember from '96-'00....

Being able to eat out at restaurants every night.
$10 USD used to give me almost a full tank of gas.
Driving by an AMET cop and not seeing him/her salivate and lick their lips before they go for your neck.
Paying less to the CDE than I do for rent on a montly basis.
Spending $50 USD at the supermarket and coming home with almost a weeks worth of groceries.
Not having to worry about my safety because 90% of the population wasnt starving to death and would do almost anything to have enough $$$ to be able to afford the luxury meal that is chicken.

and most importantly...

There werent any "botella idio ts" running around in jeepetas with a picture of the biggest criminal in the D.R.'s political history painted on to the side of their vehicles.

Must be nice to live in a world where only the "connected" have the right to live decently eh?

 

[Beatnut]

my parents are dentists, so there goes 90% of your first impressionistic arguement.

leonel had an ideal government.

no sept. 11, international crisis, hatian revolution, problems with venezuela, the chruch breathiung down his neck and corrupt banks the preceeding government left for dead imploding.

i hate politics, id've been a damn good politician though. i dont believe in any party, but leonel is as corrupt as they come

explicame COMO poudo ser asesor economico de baninter y TODAVIA no saber del hoyaso k ayud? crear? el no puede ser tan est?pido, tiene maestria en economia.

explicame como se subi? el sueldo a 200 mil pesos pero dej? el sueldo minimo a 2000

explicame de DONDE sac? 100 millones de pesos para hacerce accionista de Carrefour

es bueno tener conecciones, pero es BIEN facil hablar sin base. las cosas suben con petroleo, hipolito no controla eso

EL MISMO DOLAR DEBIO ESTAR A 35 PESOS CUANDO LEONEL SALIO, DEBIENDO HABER SUBIDO LO PRECIOS DE TODO, SIN EMBARGO NO PASO PORQUE ES MAS POLITICO QUE ACTIVISTA NACIONAL.

el prd no es santo, el partido reformista mucho menos, pero como TU puedes tener la gayard?a de decirme que hipolito es mas ladron que leonel fernandez. leonel un hombre declarado con un valor neto de 2,000,000 de pesos DOMINICANOS en 1996 antes de subir al gobierno, y ahora con solo sus acciones valdr?a 600 millones o m?s

porfavor, discute con base para la pr?xima, pase buen dia.

ps: about come yucas, PLEASE tell me you know what a come solo is.

 

[BushBaby]

my parents are dentists, so there goes 90% of your first impressionistic arguement.

leonel had an ideal government.

no sept. 11, international crisis, hatian revolution, problems with venezuela, the chruch breathiung down his neck and corrupt banks the preceeding government left for dead imploding.

i hate politics, id've been a damn good politician though. i dont believe in any party, but leonel is as corrupt as they come

explicame COMO poudo ser asesor economico de baninter y TODAVIA no saber del hoyaso k ayud? crear? el no puede ser tan est?pido, tiene maestria en economia.

explicame como se subi? el sueldo a 200 mil pesos pero dej? el sueldo minimo a 2000

explicame de DONDE sac? 100 millones de pesos para hacerce accionista de Carrefour

es bueno tener conecciones, pero es BIEN facil hablar sin base. las cosas suben con petroleo, hipolito no controla eso

EL MISMO DOLAR DEBIO ESTAR A 35 PESOS CUANDO LEONEL SALIO, DEBIENDO HABER SUBIDO LO PRECIOS DE TODO, SIN EMBARGO NO PASO PORQUE ES MAS POLITICO QUE ACTIVISTA NACIONAL.

el prd no es santo, el partido reformista mucho menos, pero como TU puedes tener la gayard?a de decirme que hipolito es mas ladron que leonel fernandez. leonel un hombre declarado con un valor neto de 2,000,000 de pesos DOMINICANOS en 1996 antes de subir al gobierno, y ahora con solo sus acciones valdr?a 600 millones o m?s

porfavor, discute con base para la pr?xima, pase buen dia.

ps: about come yucas, PLEASE tell me you know what a come solo is.

Me'thinks dear boy, you have been reading too many PRD/PRSC comic books!! - Grahame.

 

[Beatnut]

lol, no way

you dont WANT me to start on the pansy party that is the prd or the disgusting past, present n future of prsc.

i read, i investigate, i dont just complain when something happens, i try to find out how it happened n why it led to it. i'll be a commi before im going to sympathize for a dominican party. none of them care about putting us foroword except for the ideals leonel may have, but he takes more than what he gives, i promise you.

im saddened deeply that you guys dont investigate and just take the food on your plate, its like you dont care where the food came from.

 

[project9]

Beatnut you say you are not into politics yet you are repeating the same half assed excuses that all goverment officials have been repeating over the last two years. What are the sources of your "investigations"? Interviews with Andy Dahuajre?

el prd no es santo, el partido reformista mucho menos, pero como TU puedes tener la gayard?a de decirme que hipolito es mas ladron que leonel fernandez. leonel un hombre declarado con un valor neto de 2,000,000 de pesos DOMINICANOS en 1996 antes de subir al gobierno, y ahora con solo sus acciones valdr?a 600 millones o m?s

porfavor, discute con base para la pr?xima, pase buen dia.

You are demanding that the others start arguing with facts, but i have to ask you: Where are yours?

 

[Beatnut]

Beatnut you say you are not into politics yet you are repeating the same half assed excuses that all goverment officials have been repeating over the last two years. What are the sources of your "investigations"? Interviews with Andy Dahuajre?



You are demanding that the others start arguing with facts, but i have to ask you: Where are yours?

duhajre*

lmao, WHAT EXCUSES? have i defended anything except a non bias stance? all i said was the leonel had an ideal term.

sources:

- leonel y yo (pretty good book, very informative and leonel had no comments on it..hmmm)

- the newspaper (full of crap 90% of the time, bet hey...)

- leonels very ''declaracion juridica''. i read that and couldnt keep my jaw down. he was a broke bum. now hes one of the richest in DR.

- direct fotocopies of leonels checks sent to he money laundering company (if you dont know the name of it, i'll let you do your homework, but you seem smart so cool.) that were forwordeed to different accounts in Cuba. (the dirty shmucks at the prd made the ''e pa' cuba que van'' song from this)

- the guy wants to privatize the damn UASD for gods sake. he privatizes the electric company and dissapears 300,000,000 pesos, imagine what he'll do here. the poor wont have a college to go to n someones pockets get fatter...guess whos.

- verifications of his government style, my conclusion. the way he handled hurricane georges was pathetic. he sells plantains at 10 bucks a pop but doesnt grow more. demand goes up, the price goes to 16, less platanos, MORE demand. it hit 20 before coming down. IMAGINE what he wouldve done the rise of propane/oil/dollar. this is a man with a masters in economics, hes not that stupid. GUESS WHO HAD ACCUIRED PLANTAIN SELL BENEFITS A WEEK BEFORE THE HURRICANE CAME IN.


man i can go on. im not gonna type a bible for you when it comes to this fake robin hood.

when it comes to the prd problem, theyre idiots. i can type scores for you on how and why every time they reach power they do a stupid job or how selfish ridden that party of pansies and thieves really is, but thats not my arguement right now. im telling you, leonel is nothing but a crook thats very VERY good at politics and brain washing. you just dont wanna believe this. maybe youre a pld fanatic and cant take whats at risk if you accept being wrong. maybe you dont want to aknowledge that ''hippo'' is 10 times the president leonel will ever be. i dont know.

but remember this, months down, when leonels support % spikes, youll remember what im telling you.

 

[project9]

Facts, not things you heard from "reliable sources".

maybe you dont want to aknowledge that ''hippo'' is 10 times the president leonel will ever be.

And there you invalidated any statement that could posibly be true in your post.

I wonder what will you come up(repeat) next ... wouldn't be surprised if you start talking about Juan T.H.'s fraud allegations and how the PLD stole the elections from the PRD LOL!

 

[Robert]

''hippo'' is 10 times the president leonel will ever be.

10 times a lot of things, but President isn't one that comes to mind.

It must have been a long drop out of that tree, are you ok?

 

[Beatnut]

you guys are so blind that its sad.

youre letting your bias to pld cloud your judgement.

what juan t.h said was a political response of an oposing party, nothing more.

lenoel's a crook, even though all presidents are, he was the biggest one of his cabinet and will be again.

i personally didnt vote, i shouldve voted. but god, i wouldve voted for trajano before giving my vote to hippo or this sadistic disgrace.

the man went as far as to sabotage jaime david's candidacy, his own ex-vice. i dont believe in any of them, but the fact that you guys believe in leonel is just sad, really sad.

pld fanatics think leonels going to arrive in a white horse with a thorn crown and save us from the wicked prd, and the truth'll hit you hard.

 

[project9]

Beatnut still you haven't present a single solid fact that can back up the load of bs you are saying. Nice try man, but i would believe those stories if i hadn't heard them a bunch of times and from people who like you still try to compare Hipolito Mejia with Leonel Fernandez.

 

[Beatnut]

^^i havent presented a solid fact? have you bothered lookinbg up anything i said? nope, the pld way is to talk off the top of their head and rebuttle using other peoples words

im done man, i wont go on with this cause i see no end. youre too bias to a full of sh?t party and its sad that its where you have your faith invested. find out the true politics of the ''come solos''. theyre as much scum as the prd and prcs, maybe more. youll see this soon when leo isnt the messiah you see him to be.

again, i give up. this is my last post in here. i refuse to try to change your point of view, its impossible. gluck man, i sincerely hope your fanaticism pays off.