Hot Head Dominican stereotype...

[BushBaby]

I dont know what you are talking about and obviously, you dont either. If you dont know about it then you cant talk about it. You said your not U.S. or D.R.

Therefore your opinion is void.

Now off with you!

I think your words under similar situation would be "Yeah, yeah .... whatever!!" - However, I can be a little more expressive & expansive than yourself! The fact that I am not from the US does not make my opinion void. The fact that I am not Dominican does not make my opinion void! I LIVE in the DR & have done for many years (check my records if you doubt that comment) & have watched the spectacle of 'Baseball' both here in the DR AND on several sports programmes from the US. Whereas I would not call myself an expert or 'fanatic' for the 'Game'??, I would state quite confidently that I know sufficient about the game to have an opinion!!

Your comment that you do not know what I am talking about does not indicate too high a level of general comprehension for it is most clear what I am talking about to most others who have contributed since my post. CERTAINLY the fact that YOU do not understand my comments does not in any way indicate that I do not know what I am talking about, this is a foolish supposition on your part!!! It is quite concelvable, even with my limited knowledge of the game, that because I have an open & inquisitive mind, my opinion might be more subjective & plausable than your own.

Was your comment "Now off with you" supposed to indicate scorn or a dismissal of me??? NOT something you should attempt to do with me 'Dear Boy'. Been here too long & am too long in the tooth to be "shoo'ed" off by a beginner to insults & jibes on a noticeboard!! I would gladly debate any reasoned & logical argument you can put before me, but perhaps we should continue your differences with me in another forum? HERE we need to keep it Domincan &/or subject related.

I say again - it is pressure within SPORT itself that causes aggression on the playing fields NOT a particular nationality. Dominican players are no worse than other Latin American, US, Italian, British, Australian or any other nationality - that is purely a suppostion on your part or a desire to inflame with incorrect or ill-considered statements. Grahame.

 

[Kaizen68]

world chumps...

I live in the DR and am originally from Boston, home of the World Champion (1918) Boston Red Sox. The phenomenon of Dominican talent in major league baseball is simply amazing. I would hesitate to paint all Dominican basball players with a broad brush simply because several have been involved in ugly incidents or have displayed chippy or immature behavior. Since I am of Irish descent I can't speak from the experience of Dominicans living in the US but there must be considerable pressure and experiences tempting them to act defensively or aggressively. A person from a minority group in the US whose first language is not English is not treated with respect by everybody. Many probably experience outright discrimination. My ancestors from Ireland first migrated to the US in great numbers in the years of the potato famine between 1845 and 1850. Because they were from a Catholic culture they first met with systematic discrimination from the Protestant majority. The Irish immigrants spoke English so they were able to register to vote quickly and by the turn of the century controlled the politics of the cities of the Northeastern US. The current mayor of Boston, Tom Menino, of Italian descent is the first non Irish mayor of Boston in about a century. Back to the Dominican theme. If a Dominican baseball player bounces a chair off a lady's head is that bad behavior? Yes! Will he probably be stripped of a large amount of cash in a civil suit? Yes! Are all Dominican baseball players jerks? No! Can Pedro Martinez bring a world championship to Boston? Ha! Trick question! The simple answer might appear to be yes, given that Pedro is such a talented pitcher even if his talent may be starting to decline. Given the maldici?n del Bambino the Red Sox can find a way to blow it. (Sorry, that's an esoteric baseball reference. If you didn't grow up with baseball it IS a strange idiosyncratic game. Take heart. Metric football (soccer) is easy to ubderstand.) The numbers of Dominican players in Major League Baseball is evidence of what Leonel has said. The DR is a country loaded with talent.

wow...! you can remember that far back...?

 

[toneloc24]

Sorry, but in life, there's good and bad

why doesnt the media show what some Dominican baseball players have accomplished in their country, correct me if I am wrong but wasnt it Sosa that spent his money to build a school for the children in his city???

They have done so various times. ESPN and Fox have done so in the past. When Sammy Sosa was challenging Mark McGuire for the HR record, there were many positive specials about him and his DR efforts on several networks.

Not sure about Albert Pujols, Miguel Tejada, Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez, Vlad Guerrero, etc. Someone else could fill us on their efforts. It would probably make for an interesting story.

But with the good comes the bad. They plastered Sammy with stories after the corked bat "accident."

Also, there's the underlying, but always comes up, issue of steroids. Doesn't help that since the 'roids issue came back into focus, he hasn't produced as he had in the past.

Say it ain't so Sammy, you got my benefit of the doubt.

 

[toneloc24]

It's a shame...

But they may end up banning this dude from playing for a significant stretch of time. Crazy stuff happens in baseball, the fact that he's Dominican is just an asterisk on the story.

Normally, I don't encroach on the race issues. I'm Black and proud of such, but hate that people dwell on race as an issue. There are many issues, yeah, and we need to work on them constructively, rather than divisively.

Saying this in 2004 sucks, but the fact that a white lady got her nose broken by this dude wildly throwing a chair into the stands....watch what happens to him. This is still the USA, love it or not.

In the Frank Francisco case, not even a day after, they were already talking lawsuits, pressing felony charges, thug-this/thug-that not even a day afer everything transpired. Why no one mentions that there were several problems with fans in that area, and the stadium security did not protect the players or even deal with the situation, tells me this much: this was avoidable, and there is plenty of blame to pass around.

No way, no how, will I excuse his actions. It was completely stupid and wrong. Unfortunately, he will have to pay for responding. And drunken fans can be jerks. Throwing batteries, beer, cursing at you and your family, security is supposed to step in.

Remember the situation with the Yankees & Red Sox bullpen dude?
Sometimes you get what you ask for. Here's an excerpt from Sports Illustrated:

"The Fenway Park groundskeeper involved in a bullpen brawl with two former New York Yankees sued the players for more than $33,000 for medical bills and lost wages.

Paul Williams Jr. contended his October fight with reliever Jeff Nelson and outfielder Karim Garcia left him with a deviated septum and he has lost his sense of smell, according to the suit filed in Suffolk Superior Court. He also said he sustained broken teeth, an injured neck and cleat marks on his body.

The fight occurred during Game 3 of the American League Championship Series, several innings after a bench-clearing melee that started when Garcia was plunked by Boston pitcher Pedro Martinez.

Williams said Nelson attacked him because he was cheering for the Red Sox in the Yankees' bullpen. But Nelson has said it was Williams who provoked the fight after the pitcher calmly asked him not to cheer for Boston. Garcia jumped the outfield wall to join in after the fight had broken out."

Another situation
Remember the situation where the father and son jumped out of the stands and attacked the umpire? Here's an excerpt from ESPN on the pending outcome:

".....The boy, 15 at the time, was sentenced to five years of probation and also ordered to undergo mandatory counseling and perform 30 hours of community service.

Gamboa appeared at a sentencing hearing and suggested the boy receive probation and community service because he had already been held for a month in juvenile detention after the attack. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys agreed with that suggestion.

The boy was arrested along with his father, William Ligue Jr., who initially pleaded innocent to charges of aggravated battery and mob action. The case is still pending...."

 

[Kaizen68]

bosox and yanks series

But they may end up banning this dude from playing for a significant stretch of time. Crazy stuff happens in baseball, the fact that he's Dominican is just an asterisk on the story.

Normally, I don't encroach on the race issues. I'm Black and proud of such, but hate that people dwell on race as an issue. There are many issues, yeah, and we need to work on them constructively, rather than divisively.

Saying this in 2004 sucks, but the fact that a white lady got her nose broken by this dude wildly throwing a chair into the stands....watch what happens to him. This is still the USA, love it or not.

In the Frank Francisco case, not even a day after, they were already talking lawsuits, pressing felony charges, thug-this/thug-that not even a day afer everything transpired. Why no one mentions that there were several problems with fans in that area, and the stadium security did not protect the players or even deal with the situation, tells me this much: this was avoidable, and there is plenty of blame to pass around.

No way, no how, will I excuse his actions. It was completely stupid and wrong. Unfortunately, he will have to pay for responding. And drunken fans can be jerks. Throwing batteries, beer, cursing at you and your family, security is supposed to step in.

Remember the situation with the Yankees & Red Sox bullpen dude?
Sometimes you get what you ask for. Here's an excerpt from Sports Illustrated:

"The Fenway Park groundskeeper involved in a bullpen brawl with two former New York Yankees sued the players for more than $33,000 for medical bills and lost wages.

Paul Williams Jr. contended his October fight with reliever Jeff Nelson and outfielder Karim Garcia left him with a deviated septum and he has lost his sense of smell, according to the suit filed in Suffolk Superior Court. He also said he sustained broken teeth, an injured neck and cleat marks on his body.

The fight occurred during Game 3 of the American League Championship Series, several innings after a bench-clearing melee that started when Garcia was plunked by Boston pitcher Pedro Martinez.

Williams said Nelson attacked him because he was cheering for the Red Sox in the Yankees' bullpen. But Nelson has said it was Williams who provoked the fight after the pitcher calmly asked him not to cheer for Boston. Garcia jumped the outfield wall to join in after the fight had broken out."

Another situation
Remember the situation where the father and son jumped out of the stands and attacked the umpire? Here's an excerpt from ESPN on the pending outcome:

".....The boy, 15 at the time, was sentenced to five years of probation and also ordered to undergo mandatory counseling and perform 30 hours of community service.

Gamboa appeared at a sentencing hearing and suggested the boy receive probation and community service because he had already been held for a month in juvenile detention after the attack. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys agreed with that suggestion.

The boy was arrested along with his father, William Ligue Jr., who initially pleaded innocent to charges of aggravated battery and mob action. The case is still pending...."

For what it's worth, one must understand that although these athletes are making exorbitant amount of money, in certain cases, sportmanship or lackthereof plays a huge part on issues such as this; many athletes (in all sports, latinos or not), can't even properly articulate; I've sat there watching the boob tube and listened to an athlete answer a question with "oh, he must not ain't home", the simple question was "what happened to your oponents tonight?"

Scary stuff. Again, I'm not generalizing here, but education outside of baseball is not priority with scouts, team owners and managers. They're expected to find "talent" and groom this talent, by any means necessary, whether it be through doctoring birth certificates, or medical records to show an athlete is in the best form ever. Well, Bosox will be in the Bronx, I'm sure tensions on both sides will be high, let's just hope our compadres keep a cool head on ALL sides.

 

[bienamor]

?????

why doesnt the media show what some Dominican baseball players have accomplished in their country, correct me if I am wrong but wasnt it Sosa that spent his money to build a school for the children in his city???

Ever seen Sosa Plaza? Not a pretty sight, and neither is the school if it still exists. Most of that was for show, and it shows.

Does anyone know what they have really done and who for?

 

[toneloc24]

@ Kaizen68

I understand where you're coming from. We know major sports team have no regard for really helping Dominican players or other Latino players assimilate into society.

For the Ichiros & Yao Mings, their families are legally moved over here to help them have some semblance of normal family life and discipline. With Latinos......not. Hence, in some cases, no discipline.

That lack of discipline is not limited to Latinos, think of any young guy suddenly with a load of cash and fame. They start to believe that they can get away with anything. The environment they are placed in (MLB/NFL/NBA/NHL), fosters that belief.

Francisco throwing a chair into the stands was completely stupid and hot-headed. However, as I stated before, there is plenty of blame to go around. Where was the security during all the heckling?

Since when does paying your way into a game allow you the right to belittle people, antagonize them, degrade them without recourse? Fans do not pay the players' salaries anymore, not for a long time. Corporations do. That self-importance crap is just that...crap!

I enjoy sporting events like the next dude does, but we all know that some drunk dudes go way over the line with heckling. No one seems to notice, until something like this occurs. Maybe something positive will come out of this, and these idiots are escorted out of the game before something like this occurs.

Whatever the case, Francisco will settle out of court and plead down whatever they charge him with. He'll probably end up pitching again in Montreal in 2007.

 

[Spirit7]

We latinos tend to be more hot-headed than Anglos...

We latinos tend to be more hot-headed than Anglos, and that is a fact. There are easy-going and hot-headed Dominicans too. There is a strong
Dominican presence in the major leagues (70-80 players) and even more
so in the minors (150-200) so, of course, the majority of 'hot-headed' latino
players are Dominican so you will have Frank Francisco, Manny, Pedro, A-Rod and some others involved in rumbles. But there are many other outstanding
Dominican players who just go about their business (Beltre, Sosa, Vladimir,
Willy Mo, Moises Alou, Aramis Ramirez, etc., etc.). So, this whole thread is
really much ado about nothing.

What Frank Francisco did is unacceptable wheter done by a Latino, an Asian or an Anglo, a superstar or just a bench-warmer, and he must pay his penalty.

 

[Criss Colon]

I saw the re-play of the Frank Francisco chair throwing incident

seveal times,on several American stations.NEVER ONCE,was it mentioned that he was Dominican.I thought he was an "American"! I don't care if he is from "Mars",he made a big mistake,and he will now pay "Big" for that mistake.
Had I been in the stands,I would have thrown myself in front of that chair.I need a new "SUV"! CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCc

 

[Celt202]

Latinos in Major League Baseball

There is an interesting series of articles on the Boston Herald sports page about Latin players in Major League Baseball:

http://sports.bostonherald.com/sports.bg

 

[Guatiao]

Talking about Hot Headed Selfish Dominicanos

Interesting article on Sammy Sosa, I can't believe 6 years ago he was a Hero. I guess some of the stories I heard about him are try.

http://www.nydailynews.com/10-10-2004/sports/baseball/story/240351p-206160c.html

 

[toneloc24]

Interesting article on Sammy Sosa, I can't believe 6 years ago he was a Hero. I guess some of the stories I heard about him are try.

http://www.nydailynews.com/10-10-2004/sports/baseball/story/240351p-206160c.html

That's really interesting. He's been getting a pass by the media for a long time. Guess he really has worn out his welcome. His own teammates are pissed. He's close to Ricky Williams status now.

I remember the Don Baylor thing, now he's been having trouble with Dusty Baker, who's the ultimate players' coach? Moises Alou is inquiring about leaving the Cubs and playing in SF for his father, Felipe.

Whatever came of his foundation and its work? I never heard anything about it during the hurricanes that hit DR or the mudslides earlier this year. Is it out of business?

And the steroids thing, I didn't really buy into that, but it's a damn good question. He did just "get big" all of a sudden. Bonds too. I actually believe Gary Sheffield.

I did hear that he wants to be a Yankee. I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. After Mondesi, I think Joe Torre would quit if they dumped Sosa on him too.

 

[miguel]

Lookie here!!

That's really interesting. He's been getting a pass by the media for a long time. Guess he really has worn out his welcome. His own teammates are pissed. He's close to Ricky Williams status now.

I remember the Don Baylor thing, now he's been having trouble with Dusty Baker, who's the ultimate players' coach? Moises Alou is inquiring about leaving the Cubs and playing in SF for his father, Felipe.

Whatever came of his foundation and its work? I never heard anything about it during the hurricanes that hit DR or the mudslides earlier this year. Is it out of business?

And the steroids thing, I didn't really buy into that, but it's a damn good question. He did just "get big" all of a sudden. Bonds too. I actually believe Gary Sheffield.

I did hear that he wants to be a Yankee. I sincerely doubt that will ever happen. After Mondesi, I think Joe Torre would quit if they dumped Sosa on him too.

I am no Samuel Sosa's fan but let me tell you that sometimes a player have to make a stand. True, he did the wrong thing but how many times is he going to be blamed for ALL the Cubs failures.
One thing is for a manager to take a player aside and tell him or ask him "what's wrong?" and the other is for a manager to go to the press and question his player.

Most players are primadonas but there are some that truly like to play the game and they DO get hurt when everything is blamed on them.

Again, he did the wrong thing but Dusty Baker should have taken him aside instead of opening his big mouth to the media. I do not know if you guys remember Baker's playing days, even back then he had a BIG MOUTH!.

 

[Spirit7]

It's a shame

I have admired Sammy Sosa's prowess since 1998 as much as anyone and have thought that his easy-going, upbeat attitude was great. Steroids or corks, what he has done is fantastic and will be on the record books forever.

However, typical to someone coming from the lowest levels of an underdeveloped society like the DR's, Sammy has not known how to handle himself to make up for his character deficiencies, race and nationality, which undoubtedly play into everything concerning him, denials to the contrary as there may be.

I hope he is not washed up since he did hit 35 homers in spite of missing 40 games! WITHOUT STEROIDS OR CORKS! Cubs management and Dusty Baker in particular are trying to kill two birds with one stone; get rid of Sammy and his hefty salary and cover up for their own deficiencies by using him as a scapegoat.

 

[toneloc24]

Miguel-

I've never said anything negative about Sammy Sosa, or Barry Bonds for that matter. I can appreciate the talent of being able to zoom in on a fist-sized ball coming at you at over 90 mph, and being able to hit it over 400 ft away. I've been a fan of baseball for a very long time.

I can also be objective enough to understand when facts come out and see that both players have largely been given a "pass" by the media. The negative stuff on Sammy comes from the fact that in a town that loves their sports heroes, he's completely lost his luster.

This latest act is just a culmination on negative press that he's been receiving. Corked bat, steroid allegations, selfishness in clubhouse, fighting with manager, walking out on club, then lying about it. I do not blame the media for reporting it, Sammy lied and got caught on video!!!

It's unfortunate, but you gotta call a spade a spade. There's no discrimination here. Sammy is not being blamed for the Cubs failures by himself. The entire team quit playing. Dusty Baker won with much lesser talent teams and Barry Bonds. The Cubs are too talented to not be in the playoffs.

Sammy does have a huge salary and it does make him a target. When he was doing good, he wanted that responsibility of being the team leader, and he got paid for that. When he is doing bad, he should accept that responsibility as well. It's what team leaders do. You don't walk out on your team, lie about it, and expect them to respect you.

 

[miguel]

Ok!

Miguel-

I've never said anything negative about Sammy Sosa, or Barry Bonds for that matter. I can appreciate the talent of being able to zoom in on a fist-sized ball coming at you at over 90 mph, and being able to hit it over 400 ft away. I've been a fan of baseball for a very long time.

I can also be objective enough to understand when facts come out and see that both players have largely been given a "pass" by the media. The negative stuff on Sammy comes from the fact that in a town that loves their sports heroes, he's completely lost his luster.

This latest act is just a culmination on negative press that he's been receiving. Corked bat, steroid allegations, selfishness in clubhouse, fighting with manager, walking out on club, then lying about it. I do not blame the media for reporting it, Sammy lied and got caught on video!!!

It's unfortunate, but you gotta call a spade a spade. There's no discrimination here. Sammy is not being blamed for the Cubs failures by himself. The entire team quit playing. Dusty Baker won with much lesser talent teams and Barry Bonds. The Cubs are too talented to not be in the playoffs.

Sammy does have a huge salary and it does make him a target. When he was doing good, he wanted that responsibility of being the team leader, and he got paid for that. When he is doing bad, he should accept that responsibility as well. It's what team leaders do. You don't walk out on your team, lie about it, and expect them to respect you.

BTW, I never said that YOU said anything bad about Sosa. I, too, am a baseball fan going back to when I was in "panales", 42 years ago. And I also know how someone feels when the whole team's failure is put in ONE person's shoulder.

When Sosa came up(some seem to forget) he was the biggest jerk around and was not accepted by the team, fans and media. When he changed his attitude and started to play for his team and his love of the game, he became the team, fans, management and media's darling. He has done for the Cubs much more than anybody, money wise. All of a sudden, he is not hitting 60 or 65 homers a year and now EVERYBODY is saying that it's his fault that the Cubs did not win. It takes A WHOLE TEAM TO WIN, not just one player.

By the way, he never said that he wanted to be the team's leader, and I will qoute him when he said; " I just want to play ball". Everyone made him "the leader" because he was the one putting "butts" on the seats.

I am not saying that there's any descrimination because Sammy is loved my true baseball fans (true baseball fans are those that even if they root for their own teams, they also root for someone that they know it's good for the sport). But let's not be naive and not think that this is not "an american pastime".

Yes, the whole team should be mad at him because he should have told them what he was about to do and why. But there's only so much that someone can take. He reacted that way, why?, only he knows. I have been there when EVERYTHING on the field was blamed on me and sometimes one reacts not thinking about anybody else but oneself at that moment and that is wrong.

Again, not a Sosa fan but I know how he feels/felt.

 

[toneloc24]

Miguel-

I hear you, I really do. But I'm just saying, if you're gonna wear the king's crown in the good times, don't turn and run in the bad times.

By that I mean, you damn-well-know when he wanted to re-negotiate his contract with the Cubs, he went in there as "the team leader," no matter what he says. "I just want to play ball" was not part of his negotiating strategy, I can guarantee you. No ifs, and ands, no buts. Coming off of those great years, the crown was his. He was the team leader.

Now that his numbers aren't what they were, the Cubs are stuck with him and his contract. If you're making $18 million a year, you accepted that leadership role. The Cubs actually built a very good team around him. Went out and got one of baseball's premier managers.

He's got to "man-up," apologize to the team for lying to them, first, then walking out on them, second.

 

[NY1]

steroid allegations, selfishness in clubhouse, fighting with manager, walking out on club

Oh for a second, I thought you were talking about Sheffield. Winning cures lots of things doesn't it!

 

[miguel]

Please tell me!!!

Miguel-

I hear you, I really do. But I'm just saying, if you're gonna wear the king's crown in the good times, don't turn and run in the bad times.

By that I mean, you damn-well-know when he wanted to re-negotiate his contract with the Cubs, he went in there as "the team leader," no matter what he says. "I just want to play ball" was not part of his negotiating strategy, I can guarantee you. No ifs, and ands, no buts. Coming off of those great years, the crown was his. He was the team leader.

Now that his numbers aren't what they were, the Cubs are stuck with him and his contract. If you're making $18 million a year, you accepted that leadership role. The Cubs actually built a very good team around him. Went out and got one of baseball's premier managers.

He's got to "man-up," apologize to the team for lying to them, first, then walking out on them, second.

Please, quote for me, when Sosa said that he was the team leader. EVERYBODY made him the leader because he was the only player that people were coming to see. They labeled him the team leader just like it happens with every team when ONE player is doing well.

Please don't forget that baseball is a business nowadays. Of course that he would negociate his contract letting them know that HE WAS the team's king. True, he is making $ 18 million "green ones" but please, polizzzz do not forget that manangement is making 5 times more off him, at least. If I was that good, I would demand that and much more and then tell management that most people are coming to the ball park to see me play.

People seem to think that Sosa is washed-up, give me a fricking break. The guy has a little more left in the tank, still. Ken Griffey, Jr has been washed-up(injured) for about 5 years now and he still under contract.

You seem to think that I am excusing what he did, not at all (but I do understand him), but I DO feel like you think that Sosa is washed-up. You say "if you are making $18 million, you acepted that leadership role"; so that means that the Yankees have more than one leader since their payroll for this year alone is around $184 million, give or take a few?. Again, one player DOES NOT MAKE the whole team.

I can bet you, 100 to 1 that if Sosa is not with the Cubbies next year, most of the league's teams will be making a line to see which one would sign him.

Let me ask you something, if you were that good and management was making so much money off you, wouldn't you play all the cards that are in your favor to demand a bigger pay??. I know I would, BIG TIMEEEEEEE!!

 

[toneloc24]

NY1 - Sheffield's another headcase, uh, story. I agree with you, but he hasn't been a problem in NY at all. Matter of fact, he's handled NYC and his role on the Yankees very well. I never really liked this dude. Definite bad attitude, but he does produce. Keep it Dominican-related, or else..... :laugh:

Miguel-

Call Sosa what you want. Excuse him all you want, but.... follow the common logic here. Make no mistakes or excuses.

- Rangers sign A-Rod for $252 million. A-Rod, leader of the Rangers

- Red Sox sign Manny for $180+ million. Manny, supposed to be the leader, but we all know differently. Insert Pedro & Schilling here as leaders.

- Yankees sign Jeter for $180+ million. Jeter, leader of the Yankees. Everyone on the Yankees, including ARod, acknowledges this.

- Bonds??? Not even sure what the Giants signed him for, but Bonds....leader.

- Sosa???? Not sure what Chicago signed him for, but at $18 million a year, they didn't sign him to be a just "part of the team."

By the way, no team really wants nor can afford Sammy and his contract. There is interest, but your bet would be foolish. Kansas City traded Carlos Beltran for prospects, because they couldn't sign him long-term. They're supposed to be the best bet for Sammy??? I think not.

There's also Baltimore and Colorado. Baltimore can't afford him, esp. with Tejada's contract. Colorado are only interested, but won't take on $43 million over the next 2 yrs for him. The Yankees can afford him, but don't want him. Talk about wearing out your welcome.