Mrs Clintons Bombshell. Cuba opening up to US!

[NALs]

Just how the building of almost 70,000 hotel rooms in the DR has not decreased the flow of tourists to the rest of the Caribbean - which, by the way, the DR has more hotel rooms than any other place in the region -, it simply increased the number of people visiting the Caribbean as a whole; so too will happen with Cuba in the long run.

Read the IMF paper I presented above, its very detailed in the various possible scenarios; all of which show the DR as not being affected by much.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

And I'll speculate that includes some prominent Cubans currently living in the DR.

Most of the prominent "Cubans" in the DR hail from the late 1800s, not post-Castro. Thus, referring to them as "Cubans" after over 100 years of legal migration would be a little bit of a stretch.

Even among the extremely few that arrived post-Castro, like the Fuentes family who moved to the DR in the 1980s to establish their world renown Tabacalera A. Fuentes, most of them have shown little interest in going back to Cuba; at least not to live.

In fact, Carlos Fuentes has been known to publicly say that "in the DR he's Carlos Fuentes while in Cuba he will be uno m?s".

Plus, all of his children consider themselves Dominicans and many have married into Dominican families.

They have made a name for themselves on Dominican soil and have invested quite a lot in the country, to the degree that some are quite prominent and enjoy an exceptional social status on a nationwide scale; something relatively few Cubans in the U.S. have been able to do there.

After all of that, go back to Cuba and start from scratch where they are nobodies, etc? I don't think so.

Chances are the Fuentes family is here to stay and the same can be said to the rest of the post-Castro group.

-NALs

 

[DRob]

Most of the prominent "Cubans" in the DR hail from the late 1800s, not post-Castro. Thus, referring to them as "Cubans" after over 100 years of legal migration would be a little bit of a stretch.

Even among the extremely few that arrived post-Castro, like the Fuentes family who moved to the DR in the 1980s to establish their world renown Tabacalera A. Fuentes, most of them have shown little interest in going back to Cuba; at least not to live.

In fact, Carlos Fuentes has been known to publicly say that "in the DR he's Carlos Fuentes while in Cuba he will be uno m?s".

Plus, all of his children consider themselves Dominicans and many have married into Dominican families.

They have made a name for themselves on Dominican soil and have invested quite a lot in the country, the point that some are quite prominent and enjoy an exceptional social status on a nationwide scale; something relatively few Cubans in the U.S. have been able to do there.

After all of that, go back to Cuba and start from scratch where they are nobodies, etc? I don't think so.

Chances are the Fuentes family is here to stay and the same can be said to the rest of the post-Castro group.

-NALs

Arturo Fuentes is heavily invested, economically and politically, in the DR. His circumstances are different. It would be like the Bush family heading back to europe to restart their lives (not that they would be missed).

I did a student exchange there several years ago, and met a lot of people from varied backgrounds, usually in non-guided (monitored) environments. Most Cubans would welcome the opportunity to be reunited with their relatives. They would NOT, however, have any interest in the efforts of the Baptista-supporters to reassert their former positions as the members of the ruling class. THAT part is over, and as many Cubans are concerned, those people can go jump off a cliff (preferably not in Cuba).

How this is DR related: Tons of money (including from the DR) would flow in to speed the Disneyfication and expansion of the American-friendly Cuban tourist industry. Guys like Fuente would welcome the opportunity to invest in Cuba. As an economic (versus political) refugee, his stake is a different one. Cuba is an amazing country, and it's closer to the US than any other caribbean county except perhaps the Bahamas. That means that while the world market matters, it will be Americans that determines how well Cuban tourism fares. And after the initial excitement dies down, many of those Americans will be choosing between DR and Cuba.

And that's utterly critical to DR tourism.

Think that's bunk? Try asking some of the Sosua business owners which they prefer. The uber-cheap germans, the AI-locked Canadians and Brits, or the "let me blow a grand or two and live like a rock star for a weekend" Americans. I'll give you two guesses, but you'll only need one.

Remember, Cuba was supposed to be the Vegas of the east coast. You can send as many Canadian and European AI tourists as you want, but NOTHING makes up for free spending (and oft traveling) Americans, even in this crazy economy. Cuba's massive, so there's lots to explore. It's gorgeous. It's got a sense of forbidden mystery. It's on the other side of dirt cheap. And it's a 20 minute to 2 hour flight (meaning equally dirt cheap) for roughly half the U.S. population.

You do the math.

 

[NALs]

Try asking some of the Sosua business owners which they prefer. The uber-cheap germans, the AI-locked Canadians and Brits, or the "let me blow a grand or two and live like a rock star for a weekend" Americans. I'll give you two guesses, but you'll only need one.

Remember, Cuba was supposed to be the Vegas of the east coast. You can send as many Canadian and European AI tourists as you want, but NOTHING makes up for free spending (and oft traveling) Americans, even in this crazy economy. Cuba's massive, so there's lots to explore. It's gorgeous. It's got a sense of forbidden mystery. It's on the other side of dirt cheap. And it's a 20 minute to 2 hour flight (meaning equally dirt cheap) for roughly half the U.S. population.

You do the math.

Oh yes, that's so true.

It would had been a much more accurate prediction IF Sos?a was the epitomy of Dominican tourism.

Hm, lets see.

With half of the 4 million tourists that visit the DR vacationing in the all inclusive resorts of B?varo-Punta Cana and the bulk of the remaining half vacationing in the all inclusive resorts of Playa Dorada, Cofres?, and Bayahibe; its safe to assume that the all inclusive component is much more representative of Dominican tourism than what is seen on the streets of Sos?a or Cabarete or Boca Chica.

Better yet, knowing that the vast majority of all inclusive resort clients don't ever step outside the resort walls except on their way from and to the airport; its also safe to assume that your assumption that a decrease in tipping Americans in Sos?a will cause havoc on the DR tourist industry as a whole is also flawed.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of tourists to the DR are all inclusive "junkies" and to use the very small non-all-inclusive component of Dominican tourism and attempt to make a whitewashed generalization of the industry based on such insufficient and flawed information is, well it leads to a flawed conclusion.

Sos?a-Cabarete and Boca Chica are the main non-all-inclusive destinations and yet, their share of the Dominican tourist industry pales in comparison to the bulk that heads over to Playa Dorada and B?varo; a bulk that enjoys its non-tipping all inclusive delight, a bulk that will not really be affected by the opening of Cuba to Americans.

Again, read the paper by the IMF that I linked further up this thread.

Its all crystal clear there.

-NALs

 

[pedrochemical]

If all the Americans started going to Cuba that would be a net cultural gain for D.R.

 

[FernieBee]

Try asking some of the Sosua business owners which they prefer. The uber-cheap germans, the AI-locked Canadians and Brits, or the "let me blow a grand or two and live like a rock star for a weekend" Americans. I'll give you two guesses, but you'll only need one.

 

[catcherintherye]

"If all the Americans started going to Cuba that would be a net cultural gain for D.R."

Rather a sarcastic and facetious remark, with little evidence to support it, but even assuming you are correct, I doubt the Dominican economy would survive such a shift of dollars from the DR to Cuba.

Everyone loves to hate Americans, and I suppose there is reason enough for that. However, there are substantial numbers of people who want very much to become Americans, or at least to live like Americans.

But the stereotypical American really doesn't exist any more anyway, beyond the very few who might be still living in East Miami, and they are on the endangered species list.

For the most part, the typical American is as diverse and varied as are the cultures that have been assimilated there over the course of the past 250 + years.

Moreover, throughout the world, America remains the most sought after place to live, and the one country that best represents the ideals of personal freedom and opportunity. Whether or not those ideals actually exist is another story all together, but still.

So hate Americans if you must, but keep in mind that part of that hatred comes from jealousy, and part from self-loathing. The rest is probably justified.

 

[FernieBee]

Everyone loves to hate Americans, and I suppose there is reason enough for that. However, there are substantial numbers of people who want very much to become Americans, or at least to live like Americans.

 

[? bient?t]

"If all the Americans started going to Cuba that would be a net cultural gain for D.R."

.

Everyone loves to hate Americans,

Everybody? ?To' el mundazo?

Hold on, Holden. I looooves me all kinds o' 'cans: 'Mericans, Mexicans, Dominicans...

 

[catcherintherye]

"Hold on, Holden. I looooves 'cans: 'Mericans, Mexicans, Dominicans..."

Not exactly a classic example of lineal thinking, but then again I'm just beginning to get you. Well, a little bit anyway. I mean, as much as can be expected, I guess.

You are actually a pretty funny guy, if I don't think about it too much, that is.

I just have to learn to go with the flow, right?

ai, ai, ai

 

[Beads]

The things that bring me to the DR rather than other destinations which are similar is the flight distance. Cuba will be definitely closer and if their airline taxes were cheaper it would be a no brainer for those long weekend getaways.

Hey the climate is the same and I can get more for my tourist dollars overall why wouldn't I do 6 trips a year in Cuba as opposed to 3 to the DR.

Hope this becomes a reality as I have wanted to see Cuba but being an American citizen and not wanting to deal with any consequences of sneaking in I have refrained from going.

 

[FernieBee]

If I really wanted to visit Cuba, I'd travel there with a Mexican passport, instead of my American one. Being born in Mexico affords me the opportunity to have two citizenships.

For now, I enjoy traveling to the DR. The weather is nice, although it's sometimes a little too hot and humid for my liking, and the people I've met have been great. Plus, my money goes further in the DR than in similar places I've been to...

If/when direct travel to Cuba from the US becomes a practical reality, then I will seriously consider making it one of my Caribbean destinations.

 

[? bient?t]

"Hold on, Holden. I looooves 'cans: 'Mericans, Mexicans, Dominicans..."

Not exactly a classic example of lineal thinking, but then again I'm just beginning to get you. Well, a little bit anyway. I mean, as much as can be expected, I guess.

You are actually a pretty funny guy, if I don't think about it too much, that is.

I just have to learn to go with the flow, right?

ai, ai, ai

Well, yes, I'm proudly non-linear, and I also enjoy reading your posts, and DRob's and a few others.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

In the long run speculating this and that about Cuba is like trying to hit the lottery. For a half a century what we thought would happen did not, and what happened was not predicted. Until the regime substantially changes all this stuff about tourism and the DR means nada.

 

[Berzin]

Until the regime substantially changes all this stuff about tourism and the DR means nada.

Regime change should not be a prerequisite for US citizens to travel to Cuba.

I don't see what one thing has to do with another.

 

[PICHARDO]

A lift of the US imposed embargo to Cuba would mean two things:

One is that Cuba will become a sizzling hot tourist destination for US citizens, as soon as the restrictions take effect and tourism operators offer the new destinations as the latest craze to snow and cold ridden weekend travelers.

The second will be that the same weekender travelers that now visit the DR, after visiting Cuba will revert to the same spots in the DR as soon as they feel like having just taken a vacation on post communist east Germany and feeling much is needed before it could be called HOT and SIZZLING as the operators will claim it to be.

Cuba infrastructure is falling to pieces, any more stress over the existing and crumbling decades old hotels and rooming services, and it would implode all basic services today working on precarious conditions.

The investment on infrastructure to support the kind of weekender travel from the US market was gone with the Marielitas to Miami.

The Cuban gov will hardly lose their grip on the WAY things are done there. Pretty much expect more of the same, but with US dollars being poured by the truck load by the exile community in Miami to their kins in the island.

An Embargo free Cuba will actually aid the tourism industry of the DR!!!
Many here forget that ONLY US citizens are the ones affected from such Embargo over the island. The whole world can travel to Cuba anytime they so wish it and have done since the fall of Batista's gov at the hands of the barbudos.

Once US travelers taste the Cuban infrastructure, nothing will have comparison to the one they found in the DR and still developing at fast speeds...

The removal of the Cuban Embargo will speed up the process that the DR's tourism is under. The DR will be a premier top tier industry, geared from the mid to highest level class of tourism offered in the world. Think the Riviera of the Caribbean for a long time to come. A mini Monaco of sorts...

A major European investor is looking to install the first semi-natural outdoors skying resort in Constanza, where snow will be mechanically produced to pack the slopes with the compacted powdery stuff.

I hope Cuba opens up as East Germany did, very quick or else, it will take more than decades to undo the major damages that the cities are presently being hammered with.

 

[catcherintherye]

I've been to Cuba twice, and I didn't find the kind of conditions that Picardo refers to. The roads I travel on were in much better condition than the roads in the DR. There are many crumbling building in Havavna, but overall the intrastructure is much better in Cuba than that in the DR. In addition, the hotels I stayed in were remarkably good, quite reasonably priced, and well-staffed.

The people working in the hotels (I didn't stay in AIs) were experienced and courteous. There were no sankies that I observed, although I heard stories. Most of the staff spoke at least some english, and some spoke several languages fluently. Everyone in Cuba has access to an excellent educational system, and it shows. The people are articulate, literate, and well-informed.

Outside of Havana, in Cienfuegos and Trinadad for example, the streets and the building were spotlessly clean and well-kept. The people were genuinely friendly, and there were very few, or no tigueres around, that I witnessed.

The security was much better in Cuba than in the DR. Of course, you pay for that level of security in other ways, but for a tourist, security is really what matters, not political freedoms.

Based on my experience, which is limited I admit, I can see Cuba being very much a formidable competitor of the DR with regard to tourism. I believ it would be favored over the DR in many respects, and equal to the DR in others.

It is definately a place where visitors feel welcomed, and are encouraged to return. The concept of actually being welcomed is quite the opposite from the overall negative attitude exhibited toward gringos in the DR, not that that attitude it isn't partially justified.

 

[Robert]

Europeans and Canadians have been traveling for years to Cuba and in droves for tourism. Cuba is just another Caribbean destination, except if you have a US passport.

 

[AK74]

I've been to Cuba twice, and I didn't find the kind of conditions that Picardo refers to. The roads I travel on were in much better condition than the roads in the DR. There are many crumbling building in Havavna, but overall the intrastructure is much better in Cuba than that in the DR. In addition, the hotels I stayed in were remarkably good, quite reasonably priced, and well-staffed.

The people working in the hotels (I didn't stay in AIs) were experienced and courteous. There were no sankies that I observed, although I heard stories. Most of the staff spoke at least some english, and some spoke several languages fluently. Everyone in Cuba has access to an excellent educational system, and it shows. The people are articulate, literate, and well-informed.

Outside of Havana, in Cienfuegos and Trinadad for example, the streets and the building were spotlessly clean and well-kept. The people were genuinely friendly, and there were very few, or no tigueres around, that I witnessed.

The security was much better in Cuba than in the DR. Of course, you pay for that level of security in other ways, but for a tourist, security is really what matters, not political freedoms.

Based on my experience, which is limited I admit, I can see Cuba being very much a formidable competitor of the DR with regard to tourism. I believ it would be favored over the DR in many respects, and equal to the DR in others.

It is definately a place where visitors feel welcomed, and are encouraged to return. The concept of actually being welcomed is quite the opposite from the overall negative attitude exhibited toward gringos in the DR, not that that attitude it isn't partially justified.

Cuba is beautiful, well developed, clean, friendly.

Can not be any comparison to DR at all.

Those who say otherwise - never been ther.

Medicine. Education. Sport. Culture. Rich heritage. Well developed infrastructure that DR can only dream about.

Spotless clean ecology. Seas full of sea food, lobsters.

Twice closer to the States.

But arguing and discussing with people who never been there and just angry without common sense is useless.

Let Pichardo think that all American tourists will stay in Sosua that has no sewage system but has outrageous prices to stay and to eat and will not go to Cuba instead. It is OK.

And let him think that he and Dominican business will live very well without American tourists money.

It is also OK.

Thank you, Barak Hussein!

 

[NALs]

Europeans and Canadians have been traveling for years to Cuba and in droves for tourism. Cuba is just another Caribbean destination, except if you have a US passport.

Exactly!

The problem is that some people think Americans and the U.S. are the world and some think that the DR eats because of them; which explains why some are having a problem accepting that the DR economy is not in a crisis despite what is occuring in "the savior of all saviors.".

Now, before anyone goes on the anti-American labeling rant, the U.S. is the only country besides the DR that I truly care for. The rest of the world means little to me, unless they are nuisance to either of those two countries. So if anyone is tempted to go on the anti-American labeling rant, don't waste your time.

BTW AK74, for many years Dominican tourism survived without much American participation in it. This "boom" in American travelers to the DR has been mostly a phenomenon of the this decade while Dominican tourism has existed for about 30 years now.

Don't see why the DR is in such "danger" when A) the Europeans/Latin Americans vacationing in Cuba need a place to stay once the Americans move in en masse and B) the DR is the country that has the tradition of receiving European/Latin American tourists and will have the space to accommodate all those Europeans/Latin Americans.

In fact, for many years and to this day, many American tourists felt uncomfortable in many Dominican resorts due to their catering/geared towards European tastes.

The Cuban "threat" is much more real for places like Cancun, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Bahamas, and even South Florida. Anyone that has ever vacationed in those places quickly realize that its the U.S. in the tropics; unlike the DR tourist areas which have more of a Europe in the tropics feel.

But, alas, I think my point has been well made already.

-NALs :cheeky: