My first Debate

[XanaduRanch]

I Read It.

If you read the first posting in this Thread ( by Talldrink ), you might understand.

Re-read it. And still don't understand it. Too complicated for poor old me I guess. People need to describe their debates in 10 paragraphs or less or I fall alseep before I get to the end.

Sam Clemens once apologized for writing a very long letter. He did not, he said, have time to write a short one.

Think about it.

Tom aka XR Alba's idea of housework is to sweep the room with a glance.

 

[Narcosis]

Here I will spell it out for you!

Common misconceptions about Dominicans..

 

[Narcosis]

Some people love to dwell on the obvious and avoid the true debate.

I also notice some people on this forum have a "Holier than thou" attitude about certain subjects.

The Subject about Haiti, may bore and up-set some people but it is an important issue for Dominicans, especially now.

 

[mountainfrog]

No problem

Whenever I hear this, I know, that there IS a problem.
Garbage left on the beach: no problem.
Bottles thrown out of the car window: no problem.
Used diapers left for dog food: no problem.
Motor oil drained into the street: no problem.
Misconceptions?
Telling me lies does not convince me to deny what I SEE.
M?frog

 

[Narcosis]

M-Frog

You can bet your list of problems bother me more than it does you.

My point is that we should avoid the obvious and concentrate on the mis-conceptions.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Wow!

Common misconceptions about Dominicans..

TallDrink needed 12 paragraphs, 30+ lines, and over 700 words, and you boiled it down to just four: Common misconceptions about Dominicans.

Please! Can you go see if Algore needs a speech writer? Someone else who could benefit from brevity. Him or Rapadou. But I don't think Rapadou pays as well as that tree guy.

Problem is, throwing garbage around is not a misconception from what I have seen unfortunately.

Tom aka XR My karma ran over my dogma.

 

[mountainfrog]

Big bird?s attitude

Sorry, Narcosis you may be one of the very few environmentalists in this country.
But then "concentrating on misconceptions" is just sticking one?s head in the sand, does not solve any problems at all.
"Reunion" - talks to get away from the OBVIOUS, covering up
facts which are "muy incomodo".
Dominican way of solving problems?
BTW, you shouldn?t bet on my list not knowing how long it is.
M?frog

 

[Narcosis]

I tried to avoid this.

Ok M-frog. You forced me to make another un-popular statement.

I agree about the garbage and a million other negative things we have no space here to list. It seems many people think they know Dominicans just from living in Cabarete, Sosua or whatever mountain you live on.

Much to your surprise if you met other people, people that actually have education, people that know who their dad is, that have normal sized families etc, you would come to realize this generalized idea of how Dominicans are, is false. Go to the middle class areas of Santiago, La Vega or Santo Domingo and you will see a different civil attitude.

Much of the current status of Anarchy in this country is the result of countless years of invasions from our African brothers to the West. They have infiltrated into this country imposing their savage ways onto the poorer sectors of society. Many of those "Dominicans" you see in places like Sosua San Pedro, San Cristobal, Azua and every poor bario in this country are 2 or 3 generation Haitians.

If you ask older folk in the Cibao they will tell you of a very different country where people did not litter in the street crowd on street corners looking for hand-outs and basically just taking up space on a moto-concho.

There are 2 Million plus Haitians in this country people.. Tell me which country in the world has a similiar situation and has not engaged in all-out ethnic war?

This country hs a right to limit the entry of Haitians that are estimated now as one fourth of the population.

It amazes me to read posts about people actually admitting they employ illegals and feeling good about it! are you kidding me? What would happen if you admitted that you employ illegal Mexicans in your home in the states?

I am well aware many have taken advantage of the hatians for business purposes others for political reasons. Many of our problems stem from this all-out invasion.

Sorry if I offended anyone but there are many many people that hold the same opinion.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Well ...

Ok M-frog. You forced me to make another un-popular statement. It seems many people think they know Dominicans just from living in Cabarete, Sosua or whatever mountain you live on. Much to your surprise if you met other people, people that actually have education, people that know who their dad is, that have normal sized families etc, you would come to realize this generalized idea of how Dominicans are, is false.

For every one person who is responsible there are ten others who aren't, so it's no wonder people get the impressions they do.

But stop blaming it on the Haitians. It's a Dominican thang.

Tom aka XR I had to stop driving my car. The tires got dizzy.

P.S. I do not employee illegal Haitians. All my employees have valid Dominican cedulas.

 

[mountainfrog]

Narcosis, please see post 9 of this thread.

There I said "Pointing one?s finger at others ..."
and sure enough you?ve done just that.
The Haitians are to be the scapegoats for YOUR problems.
How did these "savages" succeed in forcing you to be so unconcerned when it comes to YOUR environment?
Here in the mountains where we live are no Haitians, it?s a small roadside village where educated people from S.D., Santiago and other middle-class areas condescend to throw their garbage bags after having spent a weekend in the bush (Saman?).
But, no problem, this is your country.
I don?t have the right to criticize, right?
Will you still accept my employing Dominicans (No Haitians so far) and my investing $$$$$?
M?frog

 

[Narcosis]

I'm glad you both took the time to check the cedula's.

Even in this time of paranoia in the states you could get a fake ID just about anywhere.

If it looks like a bananna, it smells like a bananna and it tastes like one it probably is no matter what they say.

BTW. Please don't take this personal that is not the idea. If you don't agree thats ok.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Sad.

I'm glad you both took the time to check the cedula's. Even in this time of paranoia in the states you could get a fake ID just about anywhere. If it looks like a bananna, it smells like a bananna and it tastes like one it probably is no matter what they say.

No, it's not OK.

You're just another Dominican (I'll know for sure after I validate your cedula) running around to anyone who'll listen, spouting off to point the finger of blame for everything you see as wrong at everyone and anyone but you. Give it up.

I know this will probably really torque you off but I pay my dark skinned Haitian looking employees the same as the Dominican ones. Yes! And what's more, being American, I don't judge a person's worth by whether the government thinks his or her papers are in order. How ridiculous! Sorry! I actually take care of the people who take care of me, regardless.

So there. Put that in your bigoted little pipe and smoke it. Whoops! Sorry! Don't want to incite a rant against Jamaicans next!

Tom aka XR I saw an ad in Listin Diario for 24 Hour Banking But I don't have that much time.

 

[Narcosis]

No it's not ok? What the f... does that mean?

Your view is the only valid one? I have no right to my point of view?

I have not made an attempt to impose my opinion on you and much less insulted you personally.

I did not even make a reference to you on anything, nonetheless you felt compelled to defend yourself for employing aliens? That is your problem buddy.

My statement originated from the constant repeaded bashing on the garbage issue. I then gave MY point of view to a general issue. If you don't like it that is your problem.

 

[Pib]

Narcosis

Do you deny that there is a garbage problem? A big one to boot? Hey, you can't be more Dominican than I am, or like this country more than I do, but I am not blind to the problems and even if I had never left the DR and hadn't seen other countries that do not have the same problem I would still know that there is a problem.

Denial is not a remedy.

 

[Narcosis]

Denial?

You don't even know me..Read some of my posts on the enviroment. I am the first to say there is a huge garbage problem, are you kidding me.

I am well aware my views are not to the liking of many ex-pats that seem to be a little too liberal.

This is probably the only issue I have a "right-wing" view on probably on any subject. But again each person has a right to their own opinion.

My agenda is not to be popular here or un-popular for that matter, but I hope some people will learn to accept others views, this is a Democratic country and I hope this forum is as well.

 

[Chirimoya]

========
"If you ask older folk in the Cibao they will tell you of a very different country where people did not litter in the street crowd on street corners looking for hand-outs and basically just taking up space on a moto-concho." quote from Narcosis.
========

If you ask older folk in any country they will tell you that there was no litter in the street in their day. The population was much smaller and there was not so much youth unemployment or underemployment. There were no small Japanese mass-market motorbikes available to the poorer sectors of society.

A generation or two ago there was not the same throwaway disposable culture we have today. People were also more inclined to be law-abiding, especially when living under a dictatorship. I have seen present-day Dominicans of all classes and colours throw litter out of their car windows, on virgin beaches, riverbanks, city streets, etc.

Now tell us exactly how this can be blamed on Haitians?

Not to say Haitians are innocent of this, along with members of many other nations - including our charming friend outside the restaurant.

Chiri

 

[Criss Colon]

I have never smelled a "Stinky" Dominican!

Haitians on the other hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just another custom they inherited from the French I guess!CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCccccc

 

[Narcosis]

Not rocket science

It's amazing something so simple has to be turned around in every which angle just to avoid the the simple fact that when millions of un-educated, dirt-poor people descend upon a society it will affect it in a negative way.

If you look at the out-skirts of Santo Domingo and see pictures of these same barios just 25 to 30 years ago (much after Trujillo by the way) you will see a major difference. Most of these barios did not even exist. Where did all these people come from in such short time?

Haitians are dramatically different from any other western society. Basically they still hold African values that conflict with the overwhelming different western values Dominican hold. Case in point. A democratically voted president Aristide, "protected" by the US goverment etc. What did he do to "punish" Guy Phillipe the Haitian police official that was up to a few days ago in exile here? They took his wife and child, wrapped them in a tire and poured gasoline on them and let them burn to death in front of him.. He was forced to watch this! Even the worst of Trujillo's crimes paled againts this act.

You see the US tried to re-establish law and order in Haiti, trained police even showed them how to handle simple transit disputes. Did not work. a miserable failure. This is a people that will not submit to western values. Law and justice for them is with a machete.

 

[Narcosis]

Garbage

But since there seems to be a fixation on the garbage issue I will attempt to make the link to it.

If we keep overloading the system with more and more un-educated dirty people how in God's name will we become a clean society?

When schools are already overflowed as well as hospitals, most of these Haitians must work to survive, un-able to educate themselves much less their off-spring. It is a downward spiral how is it so hard to see?

It is amazing how people want to cast a blind eye on the situation and then write home "oh the Dominicans treat the Haitians so poorly", "They are such bigots".

What solution have other nations for the Haitian problem? Do you want a few million living in England or the US? The solution is not in the DR by a long shot. It only increases all of our own problems. We are everyday dirtier more un-educated because of it and to boot some political parties have it as part of their agendas to bring in more Haitians so they can get more votes. More downward spiral.

 

[Chirimoya]

"Where did all these people come from in such short time?"

It's called population growth (courtesy of the Vatican). Not so long ago, it was common for Dominicans, again of all colours, to have enormous families "as many as God sends". Both sets of my husband's devout white Dominican grandparents had over 20 children. Although this trend is in decline, the result is a dramatic population increase.

Most would argue that Trujillo's massacre of thousands of Haitians beats the atrocities you mention hands down, if only in scale, and it was no worse in its methods. Hacking men, women and children to death with machetes, or necklacing? A matter of personal preference.

The world's supposed great cultures have also produced unspeakable atrocities, by no means restricted to Africa. It's what any humans are capable of if the circumstances are "right".

There is no point in arguing who is better or worse. For every smelly Haitian I will show you a clean one, ditto for every clean Dominican I will show you a smelly one. I have stayed with Haitian campesinos in very remote areas and let me tell you their house was cleaner than many Dominican houses I have visited in the campo here. But does that prove that they are better? Not really. Again, Europeans who are supposed to be culturally advanced are not renowned for their personal hygiene, or their spotless houses. Does this make them inferior?

Sometimes it appears that Haiti only exists so that (some) Dominicans can feel better about themselves. Every nation needs a neighbour like Haiti.

Chiri

Editing to add: what has happened to the quote function?

In reply to the "garbage" post I agree that it should not be the DR's problem, and that the international community has been neglectful of the Haitian situation. But who can come up with a realistic solution?