NYTimes Article, is the DR seeing more poor Haitians?

[deelt]

If the same can be said for...

Dominicans in the US there would be a rally in front of the UN in NYC.
At the end of the day what is being committed is a human rights violation.
The fact that children are born in DR makes them Dominican with parents of Haitian decent. If your arguments were to hold true then I am no more Dominican than many of the Dominicans posting here. We all know if I were to step foot on the island I would be seen as American with all the insults and slurs that come along with that despite my education and professionalism.
D

I don't see the point in all these Hatian discussions that are forever popping up. Illegal Hatians should be rounded up and deported and the border should be secured.
Larry

 

[NALs]

Actually, every child born in the DR or anywhere in the world for that matter from Haitian parents, are or should be considered Haitians. The Haitian constitution claims that any child that is born anywhere in the world with at least one Haitian citizen is and should be given Haitian citizenship upon birth. Haitians do recognize duality between Haitian citizenship and any other citizenship in the world.

The Dominican Republic does not recognize dual citizenship (only with certain countries, Haiti is not one of them). So, children of Haitian decent should be granted the one citizenship that is guaranteed to them by the home country of the child's parent (that is Haitian Citizenship), and that in its self annuls the Dominican citizenship because that would mean duality between recognition in Haiti and DR, two countries that don't accept duality of either. A person is either Dominican (if born in the DR, with no duality with Haiti) or its Haitian (born in Haiti or anywhere with at least one Haitian parent). This citizenship thing quite complicated, but in many cases the Haitian constitution justifies the Dominican Republic's habit of not granting children of Haitian decent their Dominican citizenship. Again, it's because that would create a dual citizenship of Dominican/Haitian, and both country don't accept duality of either.

Dominicans in the US there would be a rally in front of the UN in NYC.
At the end of the day what is being committed is a human rights violation.
The fact that children are born in DR makes them Dominican with parents of Haitian decent. If your arguments were to hold true then I am no more Dominican than many of the Dominicans posting here. We all know if I were to step foot on the island I would be seen as American with all the insults and slurs that come along with that despite my education and professionalism.

D

 

[Narcosis]

Dead Wrong

Children born here are Dominican ONLY if one of their parents is in fact Dominican that is what our constitution states.

 

[NALs]

Deelt, assuming you are Dominican, that is what you would be considered in the DR...

Dominicans on the island do consider you Dominican (assuming you are Dominican) just because your parents are Dominicans, regardless of where you were born. In fact, many high ranking people in the DR refer to children of Dominican parents that were not born on the island as "Dominicanos nacidos en el exterior" or Dominicans born in the exterior regardless of their legal citizenship of that other country.

 

[Larry]

Dominicans in the US there would be a rally in front of the UN in NYC.
At the end of the day what is being committed is a human rights violation.
The fact that children are born in DR makes them Dominican with parents of Haitian decent. If your arguments were to hold true then I am no more Dominican than many of the Dominicans posting here. We all know if I were to step foot on the island I would be seen as American with all the insults and slurs that come along with that despite my education and professionalism.
D

Well, as is so often said, the DR is not the US and American ideology and Dominican ideology in general are two different things. Comparing deportation of illegal Haitians from the DR and illegal Dominicans from the US is comparing apples to oranges. The DR political and judicial systems are one big civil rights violation so please do not attempt to apply that term. I understand and concede the babies being born to illegal Hatian mothers becoming legal Dominicans if that indeed is the law but there is no excuse for the rest ( beggers, theives,etc.) being permitted to stay. What's the use in applying the term "illegal" immigrant anyway if you wont be deported if caught? Here is the sad reality...those running over the boarder are Haitian and poor. This does not mean that their reality has to become the Dominican Republics reality because a term like "civil rights violation" is bandied about.
Larry

 

[deelt]

Not getting defensive

Just checking you. Para que no te pases conmigo. I see a bit of projection going on and just though I should nip it in the bud. You are assuming to much about me without even knowning me and I don't like it. When looking at issues of defensiveness look at our exchanges and then in a mirror.

I have been to DR. I have lived in DR. And I know how Dominicans treat Haitians and Dominicans of color. It is not right. You are assuming too much. I also read and keep myself informed. I am not pulling random acts of kindness and assuming they are status quo. Cite to me one incident that I used as an example and extrapolated it to the entire situtation in DR. 'Nuf said. You state the "obvious" as a defense but do not cite one fact, a document, a data, etc. Who is really coming to the table extrapolating?

Deelt:

Don't take things so personally, I made a statement about you growing-up in NYC with Haitians to point out how trivial that fact is in this debate.

The idea you base your knowledge on the fact you know Dominicans and Haitians from living in the USA is a very weak position to be making such broad statements on this subject. You and they are Americans of Dominican and/or Haitian decent much different from those of us that live here.

Your opinion is welcome nonetheless, but please don't get defensive when the credibility of your "facts" are challanged by people on the ground, people who live, work, employ and invest their money here.

We are no doubt the ones whom are most affected by what happens in Haiti not those of you theorists living under the protection of a host country, we want Haiti to prosper and the people to better themselves in THEIR country.

 

[deelt]

Read my previous posts. I list them. The countries are different. Never said they were the same. I said the social cultures have some similarities. Please review the previous comments made in responding to Forbeca.

Thanks

This countries are totally different (NO SIMILARITIES) however if you do know one let us know we are eager find out.

 

[deelt]

It's not a competition...

No, I never framed this as a competition. Please do not read more into my comments than what I have written. I do not have a hidden agenda other than making sure that BOTH countries improve their economic state in their OWN RESPECTIVE COUNTRIES. However, it is our responsibility to help where we can. Dominicans just exacerbate the issue with their lack of constructive responses. "Round 'em up! or Slaughter them!" are not the answer since it hasn't worked for the past 100 years. Care to try something new?

I completely disagree that Dominicans are losing their identity. Santeria has been practiced in DR since DAY 1. It is part and parcel of what is the Dominican culture and what it shares with Haiti, PR, Cuba...and our yoruba/african roots. Paradoxically, Balaguer tried to suppress this as much of this as he could (even killing a prominent man) and engrained it in the people so....It is a terrible thing.

Leonel said what he said because he was using it as an excuse. Balaguer style hasta el fin.

I assumed (based on all your posts on this thread collectivley) that you were saying that Dominicans are or should just accept the Haitian way of things because we are more alike than different, according to you. With that assumption in mind, is made that statement of why when people talk about the cultural similarities, why they always put the Haitian culture in a "higher" or "stronger" position than Dominican culture. The way people word things in any issue is very important in revealing their priorities, regardless of what they actually say. When people say that Haitians share alot of similarities with Dominicans, that gives the impression that the similarities are nothing more than a Haitianization process that is dissimating the Dominican culture. So if that is the assumption, how can anyone say that Dominicans and Haitians are much more similar than different when what we keep seeing is Dominican culture being replaced by the Haitian one? That is what I'm really after and if you don't see Dominicans losing their identity, then you need to get out more. Even the soon to be President if the elections go smoothly, Leonel Fernandez recognize the lack of identity and the erosion of what ever bit of identity that Dominicans have.

 

[Texas Bill]

I beg to differ... The REALITY is that you cannot ship "millions of tons of food, medicines, equipment, etc., etc." to desperate and destitute people and then say, "OK, now go feed and medicate yourself". It's an arrogant, disingenuous and frankly, naive and irresponsible position for the UN and the US to take. Of course desparate, poor people will sell goods across a border. It's always about economics - and survival.

And desperate people behave desparately, no magic in that. If I don't know where my next meal is coming from and someone dumps a bag of rice on my front porch, perhaps I would resort to selling and/or hording more than my fair share, disregarding my fellow countrymen in the process.

I'm not saying that Haiti's leaders are not without blame. None would ever win any humanitarian awards - and obviously they're in no rush to a podium to accept one...

A far more beneficial approach for the US and the UN (by proxy) to take would be for them do take the millions of dollars spent on food and medicine and invest it in the development of infrastructures - economic not political - (ie, agriculture and/or the sciences) which would allow Haiti to become self sufficient. I'd argue that once "we" embrace full support, promotion and encouragment of economic independence, a serious palpable change would occur.

Anything less would be more business as usual - band-aids on open, gaping wounds. :ermm:

The food and goods are shipped to government/NGO agencies within Haiti for distribution to the "starving millions"! That those agencies don't do the distribution equally is NOT the fault of the UN/US originators of the shipments!
That's the REALITY of the situation and the results of ineptitude, greed, corruption, or whatever you may wish to call it.
For the UN/US to spend BILLIONS on an infrastructure that is the responsibility of the governing body is untenable. The US taxpayer simply wouldn't stand for it. So the numerous charitable agencies send down food, goods, etc. instead.
What you are advocation is that it is the responsibility of the UN/US to provide for a country "in total" and that simply can't be done. Get your priorities straight, your logic straight and your verbage realigned to a realistic solution instead of "gouge 'Uncle Sam' " for whatever is needed. It IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE UN NOR THE US THAT HAITI IS IN THE SHAPE IT IS IN. IT IS THEIR OWN FAULT AND YOU CAN'T PLACE THE BLAME ELSEWHERE no matter how much you may wish to .
Now, that said, maybe you can back off and regroup in your thinking, unless you are using this forum soley for anti-US/UN propoganda!

Texas Bill

 

[deelt]

The concern is with the Ministry of Interior

My feeling is exactly. However, the US, France etc, just found a puppet but this not pick the strings. Thus, the same old characters (pre-Aristide) are stepping into place. In trying to suppress the existance of an army/police the loophole lies in the Ministry of Interior, taking away the power away from the puppet to manage appointments to the police/army; thus, this allows the establishment of a corrupt "ton ton macoute" type cadre of extortionists to return. This is why the US and France, etc. do not want to step in.
The article in the NYT was influenced by Erik's paper (see link below) and some of the discussion currently taking place regarding the current situtation.

http://www.iadialog.org/publications/country_studies/haiti_poverty.pdf

Peace

But is it generally understood that the new government in Haiti is letting things go into a worse condition than they were? Is it due to an on-going lavalas resistance movement? or is it just that the new govenmnet is utterly indifferent? Please tell me if I am missing something here. Is the following statement true?

In spite of the curruption that Aristeed supported and was supported by, he in hindsight did a better job of taking care of the nations needs than the new interm government.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the situation. I find it hard to beleive that France, the US and others who publicly stated that it would be benificial for Aristeed to step down (to put thier position mildly) would not at least inject a little cash to make sure things run smoothly after the outsting. This whole situation seems to be senseless.

-Lee

 

[deelt]

Yeah....Right!

The only time I hear "Dominicans en el exterior" is when Dominicans want my money to run political campaigns in DR. What I see is an abusive relationship between Dominicans in DR and in the US. I am considered Dominican when it is convenient to the DR and not before. In the interm what I hear are slurs about Dominicans abroad who struggle to send money back...we are hookers, drug dealers, cadenuses, Dominicanyorks, etc. That is how I see it. While I do not internalize it, this is what I hear.

DR recognized children of Dominican descent when they saw that Dominicans in the US were severely politically hurt and would have lacked the money to send back to DR to maintain its people. They feared a reverse invasion. Imagine, Dominicans from abroad coming back to the island in waves. Then and only then was the dual-citizenship law passed in 1995-1996 to recognize dual-citizenship. May be you all don't you talk about the effect that deportation from the US has affected DR....then again, maybe you do.
This is blamed on Dominican in the US, but many ignore the conditions and habits that created the need in DR.

Have you ever wondered why DR accepts dual citizenship of mainly European children, but not Haiti? Yes it is political but it is also a subtle way of whitening the race (fear factor). Is this any better than what Trujillo tried to do? It would be interesting to find out if poor white people are on the "accepted dual citizenship" list. Is Kosovo, Serbia, Russia, etc. on there? I suspect so. If the idea is to keep poor people out why are these countries let in? Hmmmm? I wonder why.

 

[deelt]

Don't disagree

Read my previous post. I hear that Haiti's problem should not become DR's problem. Fine. I agree. But the methods in employed thus, far have NOT stemmed the flow of Haitians to DR. How can we curb this? By improving the economic state of Haiti.

I understand and concede the babies being born to illegal Hatian mothers becoming legal Dominicans if that indeed is the law but there is no excuse for the rest ( beggers, theives,etc.) being permitted to stay. Here is the sad reality...those running over the boarder are Haitian and poor. This does not mean that their reality has to become the Dominican Republics reality because a term like "civil rights violation" is bandied about.
Larry

 

[NALs]

Have you ever wondered why DR accepts dual citizenship of mainly European children, but not Haiti? Yes it is political but it is also a subtle way of whitening the race (fear factor). Is this any better than what Trujillo tried to do? It would be interesting to find out if poor white people are on the "accepted dual citizenship" list. Is Kosovo, Serbia, Russia, etc. on there? I suspect so. If the idea is to keep poor people out why are these countries let in? Hmmmm? I wonder why.

Of course the whitening thing is still alive. In the past it was to further live up to the ideology as the Dominican Republic being European in Composition and western in outlook. Today the reasons are pure economical. The fact is that the richest countries in the world are predominantly white. Its a fact that the poor countries that are receiving above average aid are white countries (ie Israel, Poland, Russia, etc). Also, noticed how quickly the rich white countries came to the conclusion of stoping Aid to Haiti (could it be because of their blackness and poverty?) Ever wonder why Africa is the least developed place on earth and is also the place that receive the smallest amoung of aid (maybe its that blackness and poor thing popping up again). So,, what is the DR going to do to ensure decent amounts of aid to come in, try to increase its white population or at least maintain the ratio of mulattos. I don't know if you have noticed, but recently jobs have been leaving the U.S. in droves. Many are going to India, but many are also going to Canada and places like Ireland. Notice how it suddenly becomes a problem that Jobs are being lost to China or India, but you don't hear it being a problem for the jobs leaving for Canada or Ireland, right? It's the white factor. If the DR is bound to keep getting a decent amount of aid, it must maintain a good number of whites in the country. Interesting how with the recent chaos in Haiti the U.S. was quick to delay their involvement, but when Kosovo flaired up in the late 1990s or when Kuwait was invaded, American planes were bombing targets within one or two days. It's the white and money effect again. That is the world order of things, that is how it has been and as long that whites control the money flow, that is how is going to be for many years to come. Its reality.

 

[nycVu]

The food and goods are shipped to government/NGO agencies within Haiti for distribution to the "starving millions"! That those agencies don't do the distribution equally is NOT the fault of the UN/US originators of the shipments!
That's the REALITY of the situation and the results of ineptitude, greed, corruption, or whatever you may wish to call it.
For the UN/US to spend BILLIONS on an infrastructure that is the responsibility of the governing body is untenable. The US taxpayer simply wouldn't stand for it. So the numerous charitable agencies send down food, goods, etc. instead.
What you are advocation is that it is the responsibility of the UN/US to provide for a country "in total" and that simply can't be done. Get your priorities straight, your logic straight and your verbage realigned to a realistic solution instead of "gouge 'Uncle Sam' " for whatever is needed. It IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE UN NOR THE US THAT HAITI IS IN THE SHAPE IT IS IN. IT IS THEIR OWN FAULT AND YOU CAN'T PLACE THE BLAME ELSEWHERE no matter how much you may wish to .
Now, that said, maybe you can back off and regroup in your thinking, unless you are using this forum soley for anti-US/UN propoganda!

Texas Bill

My position on this topic is quite logical, if you don't agree, well Tex, that's your God-given and American-sanctioned right to do so. I never stated nor do I believe that it is the fault or blame of the US/UN for Haiti's political and economic situation; in fact, I clearly stated that the problems were due in large part to corruption in Haiti's leadership. I certainly wouldn't advocate "gouging" Uncle Sam - he's fat enough. And you underscored my point - I DON'T wanna see anymore of my tax dollars wasted on ineffective policies.

And give me a break on the anti-US/UN crap! What a cop-out! Just for the record - few are prouder to be an American citizen than me. You couldn't pay me to live anywhere else but NYC. And I'd defend the beautiful monster that's America to my last breath.

Part of the beauty of the good ol' US of A is my right to disagree, protest and/or take a different point of view than Uncle Sam (or my fellow citizens) - especially when it comes to policies that affect people who - surprise - happen to look a lot like mi. :tired:

 

[DRsScarface]

It won't happen

The DR will not lose its culture to take on the culture and ideas of Haiti. Hatians and their government have taken over the DR for 22 years before and the DR still managed to keep its culture alive, so why wouldn't it stay alive today. The DR is stronger today than it was before and the Dominican culture is alot more well known by tourists from all over the world. Many tourists don't only come for the beaches but also because they love the Dominican people and culture. If we would leave our culture for that of Haiti, tourists would never come to the DR again because of Haiti's vodoo/very africanized culture and dis-organized society. Not to mention that the population of the DR would no longer be mostly mulatto with a substantial white population.....this would make the European nations and tourists less attracted to the DR, tourism would collapse and foreign aid to the DR would be basically non-existant.

 

[deelt]

Some food for thought

DRScarface:
I feel some of your comments are way off base. Your comments have an inherent assumption that because it is "africanized..." it is "bad, weak, poor, ugly". Thus, the need to "whiten" or as you say maintain the "mulatto" ratio is key to to attracting tourist, this is "good, strong, rich, attractive". Doesn't this sound wrong to you? Man, to me it is like a slap in the face to our cousins, our grandparents or anyone of color in any of our families.

Here is a comparison check/wake up call. Look at population, per capita rates, life expectancy, debt, etc. of the following.

Take a minute to look at DR Development indicators:
http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...M&CCODE=DOM&CNAME=Dominican+Republic&PTYPE=CP

Here is a case study for you. South Africa.

article published MArch 10, 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2836947.stm

the latest world development indicators
http://www.worldbank.org/data/countrydata/aag/zaf_aag.pdf

I see how South Africa is hurting being an africanized nation with a majority black (not mulatto) population...not!

Now if you really want to change things take a minute to sit back and think. Could it possibly be that we hurt ourselves as Dominicans by the way we do business? We hurt ourselves BECAUSE we employ the same flawed thought process that you so genuinely expressed?????

Just a thought
D

If we would leave our culture for that of Haiti, tourists would never come to the DR again because of Haiti's vodoo/very africanized culture and dis-organized society. Not to mention that the population of the DR would no longer be mostly mulatto with a substantial white population.....this would make the European nations and tourists less attracted to the DR, tourism would collapse and foreign aid to the DR would be basically non-existant.

 

[ltsnyder]

Let me see if I understand TBill correctly . . . . .

Originally Posted by Texas Bill
The food and goods are shipped to government/NGO agencies within Haiti for distribution to the "starving millions"! That those agencies don't do the distribution equally is NOT the fault of the UN/US originators of the shipments!
That's the REALITY of the situation and the results of ineptitude, greed, corruption, or whatever you may wish to call it.
For the UN/US to spend BILLIONS on an infrastructure that is the responsibility of the governing body is untenable. The US taxpayer simply wouldn't stand for it. So the numerous charitable agencies send down food, goods, etc. instead.
What you are advocation is that it is the responsibility of the UN/US to provide for a country "in total" and that simply can't be done. Get your priorities straight, your logic straight and your verbage realigned to a realistic solution instead of "gouge 'Uncle Sam' " for whatever is needed. It IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE UN NOR THE US THAT HAITI IS IN THE SHAPE IT IS IN. IT IS THEIR OWN FAULT AND YOU CAN'T PLACE THE BLAME ELSEWHERE no matter how much you may wish to .
Now, that said, maybe you can back off and regroup in your thinking, unless you are using this forum soley for anti-US/UN propoganda!

Texas Bill

There is an old saying, that if you want something to "put your money where your mouth is" .
Now it seems to me that at the very least the US and France etcetera, encouraged the ousting of Aristeed. Saying he sould leave, he should not come back, etcetera. Now TBill, you may not know it but the entire budget of the Haitian government is about 360 million dollars. I find it very generous of you to discuss sending "billions" in aid . But what seems to be happening is that the US can strongly suggest his ousting, land troops to stabilize and overthrown the moment they (read US) get Aristeed out of the country, and then provide not one iota of aid and in fact be well aware that thier appointed government is letting the country go even more to hell than it already is and not raise one pinky to help.

. . . . and not raise one pinky to help.

Does any one see this as malicious at the very least.
I suppose the CIA and the NSA did not know that thier actions would lead to a deterioration of Haiti, I wonder if Bush even discussed this issue (i.e. if a new installed government would ruin the county).

I guess I can say this, what ever the US position on Aristeed was based on, it had nothing to do with the health and wealfare of the Haitian people.

Has there been an increase lately of Haitians without working papers in the DR?

-Lee

 

[deelt]

Here is another one...

Barbados

http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...Country=BRB&CCODE=BRB&CNAME=Barbados&PTYPE=CP

Per capita, people live on $8000 (Barbados currency) that is 4x as much as DR. AND this country has GRADUATED from being on the World Bank lending in 1993 when it only received INDEPENDENCE in 1966.

They went through the same issues as everyone else and STILL came out on top. The difference is they cared enough to care about their people.
For this you need VISION and a sense of HUMANITY. Not that people here don't but IMHO it is just quirked and misdirected.

For a country also full of people of color they are not doing too bad.
Peace

DRScarface:
I feel some of your comments are way off base. Your comments have an inherent assumption that because it is "africanized..." it is "bad, weak, poor, ugly". Thus, the need to "whiten" or as you say maintain the "mulatto" ratio is key to to attracting tourist, this is "good, strong, rich, attractive". Doesn't this sound wrong to you? Man, to me it is like a slap in the face to our cousins, our grandparents or anyone of color in any of our families.

Here is a comparison check/wake up call. Look at population, per capita rates, life expectancy, debt, etc. of the following.

Take a minute to look at DR Development indicators:
http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...M&CCODE=DOM&CNAME=Dominican+Republic&PTYPE=CP

Here is a case study for you. South Africa.

article published MArch 10, 2003
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2836947.stm

the latest world development indicators
http://www.worldbank.org/data/countrydata/aag/zaf_aag.pdf

I see how South Africa is hurting being an africanized nation with a majority black (not mulatto) population...not!

Now if you really want to change things take a minute to sit back and think. Could it possibly be that we hurt ourselves as Dominicans by the way we do business? We hurt ourselves BECAUSE we employ the same flawed thought process that you so genuinely expressed?????

Just a thought
D

 

[Narcosis]

Although I don't agree with DRscarface, I think you can't compare the DR to Barbados or Bermuda these are barely considered countries, they have very very small populations and live almost exclusively on tourism they depend on the oustside world for everything as a matter of fact if not for tourism they would probably still be colonies. As for South Africa? it is not an Africanized nation...It is a Europeanized African nation, big difference!

Now let us get back to the point of this thread.

Lee, the only thing holding back Haitians from an outright onslaught of the Eastern part of this shared island, is Haitians themselves. It is their nature that keep most of them from coming to our side, most would rather die than come to the DR, as simple as that, nonetheless we still see hundreds of thousands a year.

The worst part is the fact we have the poorest country in the Western Hemisphear as our neighbor.

Not only do our tax pesos go into subsidies that feed and heal Haiti but we also suffer the fact Haiti is one big lawless contraband empire. Everything from guns, drugs, and legal goods are smuggled or bartered into the Dominican Republic. Many tax paying Dominican businesses are hurt because of the unfair competition with smugglers that enter their goods over the border.

These are just some of the things we must endure for having this disaster of a country as our neigbor, not to mention the lack of any sort of healthcare system, we actually have to heal them to avoid epidemics to the whole island, I could go on and on but it has been repeated many times and nothing ever changes so go ahead theorists keep meeting and wasting everyones tax money debating if history has been unkind to Haiti and blame it on rascism and all the other BS you can come up with.

 

[NALs]

Don't forget that Barbados is a independent member of the British Commonwealth. The reason lies in their connection to Europe. In fact, Barbados is like Britain in the Tropics. These people still take time out of the day for that ever so British Cup of Tea. The fact that they are a Commonwealth of Britain has a lot to do with it!

Barbados

http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...Country=BRB&CCODE=BRB&CNAME=Barbados&PTYPE=CP

Per capita, people live on $8000 (Barbados currency) that is 4x as much as DR. AND this country has GRADUATED from being on the World Bank lending in 1993 when it only received INDEPENDENCE in 1966.

They went through the same issues as everyone else and STILL came out on top. The difference is they cared enough to care about their people.
For this you need VISION and a sense of HUMANITY. Not that people here don't but IMHO it is just quirked and misdirected.

For a country also full of people of color they are not doing too bad.
Peace