NYTimes Article, is the DR seeing more poor Haitians?

[ltsnyder]

TBill how can you read a post and understand nothing. . . .

I have to admit your a real laugh. Especially when you said Hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild Haiti. My face is cramping up from smiling so hard. Please, I know this is hard for you to understand. So read slowly and repeatedly. It'll only cost about $400 to fly Aristeed back to Haiti. If you don't understand that, please read the NY Times article that began this thread. If you still don't feel enlightened, please tell us how the loss of Aristeed is a good thing. Please, put your foot in your mouth again, it should be easy to pull it out, you must be getting use to it.

-Lee

 

[NALs]

My question is this

How much did Haiti gained with Aristeed in power? From what I have noticed Haiti only stalled itself on its declining cycle in the scheme of things. Now that Aristeed is out, Haiti is back on track in its declining cycle. I would say that with Aristeed Haiti gained nothing and if something, it was hardly noticeable. If I'm wrong, let me know so that I can further understand the other "Hispaniola".

 

[ltsnyder]

Did you read the article?

How much did Haiti gained with Aristeed in power? From what I have noticed Haiti only stalled itself on its declining cycle in the scheme of things. Now that Aristeed is out, Haiti is back on track in its declining cycle. I would say that with Aristeed Haiti gained nothing and if something, it was hardly noticeable. If I'm wrong, let me know so that I can further understand the other "Hispaniola".

Please read the New York Times article that started this thread if you have not. Do you "know" things will get better? and if so how? could you be wrong? If you were wrong why? Do the Haitians know better who will searve thier country? If no why? Armed gangs in charge of the north, basic services not being carrier out by the governement in the south. Aristeed supporteds still being hunted down.

Here is a joke you will never get:

Q> How many anti-aristeed members does it take put thier candidate in power?

A> Only 0.05% of the population if you arm them and and never if you don't because Aristeed is too popular.

The funny thing is, with all the members of this forum that have talked about the problems with the world bank and IMF and how they don't care how there money is used and if it goes to corruption. Aristeed was the first to stand up to that.

-Lee

 

[Texas Bill]

There is an old saying, that if you want something to "put your money where your mouth is" .
Now it seems to me that at the very least the US and France etcetera, encouraged the ousting of Aristeed. Saying he sould leave, he should not come back, etcetera. Now TBill, you may not know it but the entire budget of the Haitian government is about 360 million dollars. I find it very generous of you to discuss sending "billions" in aid . But what seems to be happening is that the US can strongly suggest his ousting, land troops to stabilize and overthrown the moment they (read US) get Aristeed out of the country, and then provide not one iota of aid and in fact be well aware that thier appointed government is letting the country go even more to hell than it already is and not raise one pinky to help.

. . . . and not raise one pinky to help.

Does any one see this as malicious at the very least.
I suppose the CIA and the NSA did not know that thier actions would lead to a deterioration of Haiti, I wonder if Bush even discussed this issue (i.e. if a new installed government would ruin the county).

I guess I can say this, what ever the US position on Aristeed was based on, it had nothing to do with the health and wealfare of the Haitian people.

Has there been an increase lately of Haitians without working papers in the DR?

-Lee

Lee, as always, you are avoiding the REAL issue addressed! The "billions" referred to are amounts necessary to REBUILD the collapsed infrastructure which you, by your own posting, said would be better to do than to provide food and medicines, etc., to the Haitian people. I was merely pointing out that the agencies (NOT the UN nor the US) which provided those things, had NO control over them once they arrived in country except to send them to the various centers for distribution where they evidently were confiscated by persons unknown (very probably by corrupt officials, although I can't prove such). Is that the Aristides government's fault, or is that the fault of the UN/US??? I submit that it is Aristides' fault. Do you have any evidence to the contrary??? I think not!
You seem bent on blaming the entire problems of Haiti on UN/US policy and I say you are wrong. I have read the NY Times article you referred to and it shed absolutely NO light on the causitive factors other than to reitterate the plight of the Haitian people. It's a good example of "Yellow Page Journalism" and should be read in that light only. I might add that it IS NOT the responsibility of the US to contribute one single dollar in aid to a Haitian government that has proven to be as corrupt as the one just replaced. BTW, the Haitian Legislature is the element which made the appointment to be ratified/replaced by a democratic election next month, if I recall correctly.
Also, I think your use of the adjective "malicious" is a bit out of place. But then, denigration seems to be your sole agenda nowadays. Obviously the UN/US is STILL not LIBERAL enough for your agenda.

I have ONE good question for you.
How/What would you seriously recommend as the action(s) to take with regard to Haiti and the ultimate resolution of the present plight of the Haitian population???

Texas Bill

 

[ltsnyder]

TBill

You have taken the first step, to ask the question "what can be done" rather than claiming, you already know what needs to be done. I don't have all the answers, but I know for one that the actions of the US do not demonstrate they were done for the good of the Haitian people.

CNN is too left wing for me, but they are starting to leak that all is not well in Haiti now:

here is a para-phrased section of an article:

"The town of several thousand people, located 30 miles southeast of the capital of Port-au-Prince, is still isolated by mud and landslides. The town is in a valley that often floods when it rains.

In the Haitian border village of Fond Verrettes, meanwhile, U.S. and Canadian troops handed out food to hundreds of survivors who lined up seeking help.

Troops in the U.S.-led force were sent to stabilize Haiti after President Jean-Bertrand Aristide's ouster on February 29. Since then the new interim government has struggled to provide even basic services. Left bankrupt, the government has scant resources to deal with natural disasters.
"

There is a fundumental paradox here, Haiti has undergone a (for lack of a better term) counter-revolution, it would be like Britian re-conquring the American colonies to re-impose there tax schedule. For you see, what the US and France were concerned about is the garentee of outstanding debts, and that is what they now have. No , let's be realistic, the US and France didn't conqure anything, but they made sure that someone who was not honoring thier debits was gone, and are there to make sure the new government does. Can't buy food for the people and service the debit at the same time? Let them eat cake.

-Lee

Editted to add: This is a Fundumental problem that I think we all reconize and needs to be addressed, the problem is that people, banks and organizartions can lend money to nations and rulers and (the lending institiution) take no responsibility that the money is spent properly, now you might say that this is a problem of corrupt third world nations and the people of these nations need to take reponsibility for eliminating this corruption. Well I have news for you, this kind of wild spending by a governement that leaves a unbearable tax burden on the local population is coming to a home town near you in the good old USA, mark my words. It doesn't matter if it's through high taxes or an obseance lack of basic services provided to the population of that nation, it is happening in the US too.

We have seen this happen in many other countries too, and the DR's previous Presidency (Hippolito) was/is more than willing to spend money to "employ" people in govenment jobs for party loyalty.

To respond to some of your questions:

You keep saying billions, I wish you'd stop that sillyness, don't you get it? are you dense? Aristeed didn't have billions of dollars (he had a budget of 360 million (pound that number into your head, not billions, 360 million budget)) yet he was still able to have the trash carted away in all townships of Haiti. The Haitians might want billions (hell I'll take billions if you'll give it too me). But all they really want is for thier trash to be pick up from the curb, and all those things the government use to do before that "bad man" was gone.

I can see the three gears turning in your head about to say, "360 million: we can afford that!" lol , I didn't say you had to , I just said that was the previous budget based off taxes etcetera, now if the revolution has distroyed the tax base, than I ask you, what was the revolution for?

 

[NALs]

okkkkk this is my 1st time on this site i decided to join only for the purpose of reading and replying to these threads i found the site by one of the haitians on the site im originally registered to... mentioning it on the site any way...i found that many of the dominicans who post are ignornant and hateful against haitians which i find dead wrong i dont care who critizes me about this but im not a hateful person who gonna come to this site and disrespect another culture rather than that i try to learn about other countries and have came to learn that most of ppl from dr has beef with haitian which i knew but most of dominicans take it to serious and personal to realize that we all bleed the same and will all leave the earth the same way i kno im off subject but dam i luv being haitian and surely proud of my culture and history no matter what poverty or comments any human being has to say rather then hate learn...its all a battle for which country reps the best for haiti being an independent country freed from slavery other than jamiacan who is owned and ran by the british im sure dam proud of my country the only reason haiti is the way it is was because of the president which cant be thier fault if the presidents wants his way and if he doesnt get it he kills !! THATS ALL IM SAYIN I DONT WANNA REALLY EXPRESS ANYMORE OF MY THOUGHTS ...O YEA U PPL ARE WELCOME TO EXPRESS NEGATIVE COMMENTS BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT NOT ALL BUT MOST OF U DO

That's good that you are proud of your country! However, I'm proud of my own which happens to be your country's neighbor. You know, the one your country invaded numerous times with the hope of killing every Dominican and having the entire island to your country's self. That's not what enfuriates many Dominicans though. It's that Haitian authorities don't seem to have ever felt any sorryness or apoligize for anything they had done, despite comiting complete "ethnic cleansing" in cities like Santiago and La Vega where the entire populations were repeatedly killed with Machete by the Hands of Haitians troops. But to tell you the truth, not many people are holding that against Haitians. The thing that is getting attention is the increasing power and access Haitians are getting in the DR (ie. They get medical help without paying taxes, they are getting more and more jobs in urban areas and are creeping into jobs that are usual used by Dominicans). That's what it has turned out nowadays. In the past it was purely based on the actions of the Haitians (They tried with some success to invade the DR 5 times in its history, the DR tried to invade Haiti 0 times). Today its pure economics. People don't like to see foreigners taking up jobs that a Dominican could take, exception would probably be cutting sugar cane.

But, that's good that you are proud to be a Haitian. Hopefully, you'll take your pride and try to help out your country to pull forward rather than doing what most Haitian politicians tend to do. Which is complain how the Dominicans and Americans abuse them. If the Haitian gov. would just show a bit more interest in their people, maybe more Haitians would stay and not leave their country. The same could be said of my country (DR), but the DR government does show a bit more interest to its people than the Haitian government does to their own people. Thats just my opinion and please correct me if I'm wrong in anything and/or elaborate on anything I have said. Just expressing my point of view, not trying to pick a fight.

 

[NALs]

:bored: in haiti my uncle has money so we were in a big house with american t.v.(cable) a maid and pool and tennis court but the media doesnt show the buety of any of that

Well, on that you and I are on the same page. The media always stop short of showing the nice area. But they don't hesitate for showing the most impoverish zones. Notice how when they show NYC, they show Manhattan (south of 159th street) and then they stop short before showing some really depressed areas of the Bronx or Queens. Interesting I always thought.

But back to the Haitian topic. The truth is that the DR is a country with enough problems already. Having to take care of Haitians is just not necessery especially right now. There are many people messing with the idea of uniting, I don't like that. I think the DR and Haiti should work independently to achieve their goals. Uniting would on plunge the entire island into anarchy. For example, where will the island be governed from, PP or SDQ? Or what elite group will run the country? Or what generals will administer the armed forces? Besides, look at Germany. Ever since they united they have been having cronic unemployment and a bunch of other economic problems. Uniting is not the answer. All that the DR and Haiti needs is a good government and people that can have a positive effect on the governing folks. That's all. Oh yeah, and for foreigners (U.S. in particularly but all other nations of course) to leave their noses out of the island unless their help is asked for. Also, due to all the stuff Haiti has done to the DR over the years, the DR still has to learn how to trust Haitians. Of course, historically speaking every time Dominicans begin to put their trust in Haitians, the Haitians tended to invade. So obviously, there is a problem there. With Aristide elimination of the Haitian army things could have gotten better between the two countries (no invasion threat for the DR), but now that the army is coming back, the DR needs to be on it's toes as for what is being said in Port-au-Prince. We just don't know.

There are more than enough Haitians to cause some sort of revolution or civil disorder in the Dominican Republic already. We just don't know what "master plan" the Haitian authorities are thinking of enacting. We are both hypocrites. Haitian authorities are hypocrites because they say that everything is fine between Haiti and DR, but we know they would love to take our side of the island anytime now. In the other hand, Dominican authorities are hypocrites because we say that Haiti and the DR are closer than ever now, but in the back of our heads we know that we would simply like a DR with no Haitians to worry about. That is what leads to uncertainty. Now that the U.S. seem to be shaking its super power jacket off (or is being perceived as doing such thing) and if the world order changes, all things will be up for grabs. The only thing keeping DR and Haiti from not invading each other is that giant to our north. Otherwise, it would have been just like old times. If the global scheme of things continue to deteriorate and the U.S. is force to drop its super power status, then the old times on Hispaniola will return. That's no brainer!

 

[Texas Bill]

I have to admit your a real laugh. Especially when you said Hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild Haiti. My face is cramping up from smiling so hard. Please, I know this is hard for you to understand. So read slowly and repeatedly. It'll only cost about $400 to fly Aristeed back to Haiti. If you don't understand that, please read the NY Times article that began this thread. If you still don't feel enlightened, please tell us how the loss of Aristeed is a good thing. Please, put your foot in your mouth again, it should be easy to pull it out, you must be getting use to it.

-Lee

Since you're obviously don't have the mentality to add up the cost of rebuilding the infrastructure of a country where it has virtually been destroyed, maybe you should laugh like the idiot you are instead of trying to impress people with your ability to insult them. The latter seems to be your only claim to fame ( at least, it's the only one I can detect from your rantings).
You certainly ain't got no smart.

Texas Bill

 

[ltsnyder]

I was wondering where the "Hundreds of Billions" of dollors number came from . . .

Some have inferred that the UN/US/Europe must see to it that the ENTIRE COUNTRY's infrastructure be rebuilt from scratch. It may be that is wistful thinking in light of the cost of doing so from a purely benevolent position. I would guess that cost would be in the neighborhood of several HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars.

Texas Bill

Texas Bill, you do realize that if 100 Billion was spent on the country, that would be . . . . oh let's say at vary least about 12,000 dollars for every man woman and child in Haiti. you make me smile.

-Leland

 

[Texas Bill]

Texas Bill, you do realize that if 100 Billion was spent on the country, that would be . . . . oh let's say at vary least about 12,000 dollars for every man woman and child in Haiti. you make me smile.

-Leland

Yes, I do!

Evidently you do not, since YOU are the one who suggested that contributing countries quit sending food and medicines and concentrate on rebuilding the country's infrastructure!!!

How far is YOUR foot down your mouth?? HUH??

Texas Bill