So seriously,

[greydread]

can we keep this discussion to Haiti, please?

take the Chavez stuff to the off topic thread...

thanks

I think that the way the World powers treat Haiti is directly related to how they have historically treated its neighbors.

The Haitian Revolution freed more than that one nation. It sowed the seeds of freedom throughout the entire hemisphere.

The current leadership in Venezuela and Cuba have referenced Haiti's influence and I don't see how you can separate Haiti's fate from those of its neighbors. The US, France China and all the other countries trying to "help" Haiti are not going to contribute to the country's prosperity. This will have to be the result of a regional effort as the nations of the Caribbean basin work together to improve their lot.

In this case I believe that "Yankee-Go-Home" may be the best for the region and its people. By that I mean that any contributions made by foreign individuals should be accepted but the governments and corporations have neither the ability nor the inclination to do anything for Haiti that doesn't directly serve their own best interest ahead of the interests of Haitians.

This is where both of the aforementioned regional leaders bring relevance, unless of course one actually buys into the Faux News World view.

 

[RacerX]

Change that to whom has he persecuted, whom has he had killed and It will be much easier to answer. You think he's one of the good guys, him and his buddy Castro?

Well, WHO has he persecuted? You asked the question, so give us the answer. WHO has he killed? WHAT millions of the national treasury did HE make off with? And Castro CANNOT be that bad. He had opposition. Ragtag guerillas come down from the mountainside and into Havana with slight resistance clearly he must have had support from the Cuban military.

I think anybody is a good guy who has the BEST interests of his people over foreign corporations. The histories of Cuba, Venezuela and Haiti are intertwined that is why there is so much love amongst those countries for one another. And Aristide isnt allowed in Venezuela nor Jamaica because as a deposed populist he would still be more influential with a mere microphone than some puppet from West Palm Beach for the aristocracy has been.

 

[greydread]

Well, WHO has he persecuted? You asked the question, so give us the answer. WHO has he killed? WHAT millions of the national treasury did HE make off with? And Castro CANNOT be that bad. He had opposition. Ragtag guerillas come down from the mountainside and into Havana with slight resistance clearly he must have had support from the Cuban military.

I think anybody is a good guy who has the BEST interests of his people over foreign corporations. The histories of Cuba, Venezuela and Haiti are intertwined that is why there is so much love amongst those countries for one another. And Aristide isnt allowed in Venezuela nor Jamaica because as a deposed populist he would still be more influential with a mere microphone than some puppet from West Palm Beach for the aristocracy has been.

What he said!


I find it interesting that as a member nation of the Organization of American States the U.S. is officially (State Dept.) contrary to their recommendations on Haiti's electoral process. What could be the driving factor for this? Who is pulling the strings and why?

 

[bob saunders]

Well, WHO has he persecuted? You asked the question, so give us the answer. WHO has he killed? WHAT millions of the national treasury did HE make off with? And Castro CANNOT be that bad. He had opposition. Ragtag guerillas come down from the mountainside and into Havana with slight resistance clearly he must have had support from the Cuban military.

I think anybody is a good guy who has the BEST interests of his people over foreign corporations. The histories of Cuba, Venezuela and Haiti are intertwined that is why there is so much love amongst those countries for one another. And Aristide isnt allowed in Venezuela nor Jamaica because as a deposed populist he would still be more influential with a mere microphone than some puppet from West Palm Beach for the aristocracy has been.

Bob shakes his head in disbelief that anyone can be that naive. Read the newspapers - Chavez persecutes anyone that opposes him, subverts parliament, the law.....etc. Castro loves Haiti so much that he does his best to keep Haitians out of Cuba. Castro loves Castro. Your comment on why Aristide isn't allowed in Venezuela doesn't make sense.

 

[greydread]

Bob shakes his head in disbelief that anyone can be that naive. Read the newspapers - Chavez persecutes anyone that opposes him, subverts parliament, the law.....etc. Castro loves Haiti so much that he does his best to keep Haitians out of Cuba. Castro loves Castro. Your comment on why Aristide isn't allowed in Venezuela doesn't make sense.

Yeah, that Rupert Murdoch guy not only owns Fake News but he got his start in the newspaper business if I remember correctly. No one EVER skews the perspective in print, do they? Calling someone else naive?!? Unbeleivable!

 

[bob saunders]

Yeah, that Rupert Murdoch guy not only owns Fake News but he got his start in the newspaper business if I remember correctly. No one EVER skews the perspective in print, do they? Calling someone else naive?!? Unbeleivable!

You could try read the Latin American news, even the Venezuelan news as where they openly brag about their latest compromise on Democracy. Racer seems to have the attitude that if someone is anti-American they must be right. As far as Castro is concerned I have been to Cuban a number of times, and have numerous Cuban relatives. I don't have to read newspapers to know the evil in that man. I also know Dominicans in Venezuela.

 

[Africaida]

For once, I almost agree with Bob (although I wouldn't go as far as saying that Castro or Chavez should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.)

However, Castro is ,I think, idealized and if you spend some times there, it will be gone. I truly believe he wanted and tried the best for his people, but he lost it along the way as he was pretty much isolated. I wouldn't call him evil though, it would be simplistic.
I can comment on Chavez, but I think he is pretty much the same boat. And,I agree with Greydead, US news is largely bias as far they are concerned.


To stay on topic , There are lot of Cuban doctors helping in Haiti since the earthquake.

Also, I was thinking about these presidents going back to their country. What make them do it ? Is exile too painful ? Are they just too hungry for power to stay away?

I think it brings interesting questions about forced exile, no ? Maybe it is the worst punishment...

 

[greydread]

You could try read the Latin American news, even the Venezuelan news as where they openly brag about their latest compromise on Democracy. Racer seems to have the attitude that if someone is anti-American they must be right. As far as Castro is concerned I have been to Cuban a number of times, and have numerous Cuban relatives. I don't have to read newspapers to know the evil in that man. I also know Dominicans in Venezuela.

I don't believe that there has ever been a "good" dictator.

But....I also don't believe that International corporations and their local puppets are preferable to one either.

While the Castro regime is guilty of a great deal of repression and there has been much pain and suffering caused by the Human Rights abuses, the leadership which follows him will a healthier and more literate population with which to build a free democratic nation. Venezuela to a lesser extent. I don't agree with Chavez' takeover of privately held lands or most of the extreme measures he's tried to force but I believe that he will voluntarily step down from the seat of power in the foreseeable future and allow Venezuelans to run their country as a more literate and healthier population (a little richer, too) than the one which first elected him into office.

I have watched the tourist population demographics in Aruba change from old Americans and Dutch to young Venezuelans over the past decade or so. The country is experiencing middle class growth in a way that we haven't during that time. The number of young, well educated Venezuelans is on the rise since Mr. Chavez took office.

 

[greydread]

For once, I almost agree with Bob (although I wouldn't go as far as saying that Castro or Chavez should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.)

However, Castro is ,I think, idealized and if you spend some times there, it will be gone. I truly believe he wanted and tried the best for his people, but he lost it along the way as he was pretty much isolated. I wouldn't call him evil though, it would be simplistic.
I can comment on Chavez, but I think he is pretty much the same boat. And,I agree with Greydead, US news is largely bias as far they are concerned.


To stay on topic , There are lot of Cuban doctors helping in Haiti since the earthquake.

Also, I was thinking about these presidents going back to their country. What make them do it ? Is exile too painful ? Are they just too hungry for power to stay away?

I think it brings interesting questions about forced exile, no ? Maybe it is the worst punishment...

I think that in Duvalier's case you are correct. He was miserable in France even when he was rich. I seriously don't think that he harbors any delusions of returning to power as anything more than some sort of venerable elder statesman whereas Aristide would be elected to the Presidency in a NY minute in much the same fashion as the citizens of Washington DC elected Marion Barry to another term as Mayor after he'd spent time in prison for smoking crack on national TV.

Literacy must flourish if Democracy is to survive. Haitians will need to find another form of expression. The "angry mob" thing has no place in democratic politics. It's time for an age of reason before the true rebuilding of Haiti can begin. I hear that coming from the former First Lady who is currently leading the other candidates and I hope she is elected sooner rather than later. Of the three leading candidates she's the only one without an angry mob. That should be enough reason to declare her Presidency on its own merit.

 

[Africaida]

I think that in Duvalier's case you are correct. He was miserable in France even when he was rich. I seriously don't think that he harbors any delusions of returning to power as anything more than some sort of venerable elder statesman whereas Aristide would be elected to the Presidency in a NY minute in much the same fashion as the citizens of Washington DC elected Marion Barry to another term as Mayor after he'd spent time in prison for smoking crack on national TV.

Literacy must flourish if Democracy is to survive. Haitians will need to find another form of expression. The "angry mob" thing has no place in democratic politics. It's time for an age of reason before the true rebuilding of Haiti can begin. I hear that coming from the former First Lady who is currently leading the other candidates and I hope she is elected sooner rather than later. Of the three leading candidates she's the only one without an angry mob. That should be enough reason to declare her Presidency on its own merit.

What I find amazing is that Duvalier must have known of the risks he was taking in going back to Haiti, yet he chose to return nonetheless.
I can understand Aristide to a certain extent, but Duvalier baffles me...

Agree 1000 % with your second part of the post :bunny:

 

[bob saunders]

I have watched the tourist population demographics in Aruba change from old Americans and Dutch to young Venezuelans over the past decade or so. The country is experiencing middle class growth in a way that we haven't during that time. The number of young, well educated Venezuelans is on the rise since Mr. Chavez took office.

I know a number of Venezuelans from the midle class. They are ones that suffer the most under Chavez. Venezuela

I believe that we'll find out that Duvalier is seriously ill.

 

[greydread]

What I find amazing is that Duvalier must have known of the risks he was taking in going back to Haiti, yet he chose to return nonetheless.
I can understand Aristide to a certain extent, but Duvalier baffles me...
Agree 1000 % with your second part of the post :bunny:

It's like I explained to my first ex-wife. If you tell the same lie long enough you forget what the truth was and start to believe only in the lie. To say that J-CD is in denial about his and his Fathers' years of power and abuse would be a huge understatement. He actually believes that they were good for Haiti and he's only ever been surrounded by sycophants who not surprisingly agree with every word.

 

[Africaida]

I believe that we'll find out that Duvalier is seriously ill.

I think you are right, I thought he didn't look too well. Why would you choose or take the risk dying of illness in prison is still beyond me.
Dread you are probably right, he probably believe he was good for Haiti. Apparently, from what I read, his now French wife is his publicist and they have worked relentlessly to "improve" his image. Would love to know more about her....

 

[greydread]

I know a number of Venezuelans from the midle class. They are ones that suffer the most under Chavez. Venezuela

I believe that we'll find out that Duvalier is seriously ill.

Yes. He is obviously not a well Man.

Venezuela's existing middle class was mistreated by the current administration until they realized how important they were to the country's economic well being. There is a new, young middle class of well educated professionals coming from the ranks of the formerly poor, unhealthy and illiterate masses. That's whom I was referring to. Their emergence is a model for Haiti and other countries in the region.

I don't think that Chavez is the second coming or anything like that, I just think that he has a few ideas and practices that are in the best of his and the region's people and economies. I am advocating "take the best and leave the rest" of both dictators' ideas and practices.

 

[greydread]

his now French wife is his publicist and they have worked relentlessly to "improve" his image. Would love to know more about her....

His "companion" is a dynamo. She should run for something. I think that we will hear much more about her. Is she an expatriated or foreign born Haitian?

 

[bob saunders]

Yes. He is obviously not a well Man.

Venezuela's existing middle class was mistreated by the current administration until they realized how important they were to the country's economic well being. There is a new, young middle class of well educated professionals coming from the ranks of the formerly poor, unhealthy and illiterate masses. That's whom I was referring to. Their emergence is a model for Haiti and other countries in the region.

I don't think that Chavez is the second coming or anything like that, I just think that he has a few ideas and practices that are in the best of his and the region's people and economies. I am advocating "take the best and leave the rest" of both dictators' ideas and practices.

.I'l respectfully disagree with you.
The Unfulfilled Promises of Hugo Chavez | Venezuela News

 

[mountainannie]

The talk is that he has pancreatic cancer which has only a 5% survival rate after five years


Now Titid is saying that the South African winters - in Jo Burg the average temperature recorded during the day, in the month of January is 26�C. The temperature falls to 16�C, during the month of June.* are too hard on his eyes which have required surgery six times....


The other strain for Baby is that the return of the 5 or 6 million that the Swiss banks were going to turn back to him.. was contingent on the premise that there were no charges pending against him

Speculation was that since he had a return ticket booked for three days later, he was just going to bop in and out and not be noticed much and then go back to get the money.

He did, after all, purchase a RT ticket which belies the idea that he just wanted to come to die. But he is being forbidden to leave the country now.. pending a judge's decision on whether or not to press charges. Which decision may indeed take five years...

Note also that Baby has taken French citizenship and has a French passport...so he is not eligible to run for President. And that would allow him to slip into this country and get a flight to Martinique or somewhere. He was not a drain on the French government, as Titid was to SA.

He has said that he wants to use the money for "relief" for the people but since the default is that the Swiss banks will simply turn the money over to the Haitian government, why even contest it? Why higher Bob Barr to help fight the case?

Of course both he and Titid are used to a high life.. so that he would have to take some of the proceeds for his reasonable maintenance

and then he would give the $2.50 that was left to the government of Haiti for earthquake relief.

At least Baby has apologized.. Not just now but a few years ago. He has apologized for the repression and for the people who were killed.

Now if Titid can do that...

They can all get together with Bill Clinton and George Bush, and Wyclef, and Sweet Mickey and Madame Manigat .... for a group hug.. and maybe get the country moving


of course, Preval is going to have to go back to the farm for a few years til folks get over being mad


and wht. why not bring Cedras Raoul C?dras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*and there is still Namphy and Avril although I am not sure that they are still alive or where.. sorta duvalier lite

here is an interesting piece

Haiti: The Duvaliers and their Legacy
back from exile

 

[Africaida]

His "companion" is a dynamo. She should run for something. I think that we will hear much more about her. Is she an expatriated or foreign born Haitian?

I am not sure, I am confused. I read conflicting reports: I thought she was French (she is White, but again she could be a white Haitian), I have also read somewhere she was the grand-daughter of Paul Magloire (Haiti's president in the 50's).

Maybe someone can fill in.

 

[RacerX]

Bob shakes his head in disbelief that anyone can be that naive. Read the newspapers - Chavez persecutes anyone that opposes him, subverts parliament, the law.....etc. Castro loves Haiti so much that he does his best to keep Haitians out of Cuba. Castro loves Castro. Your comment on why Aristide isn't allowed in Venezuela doesn't make sense.

Naive, you're funny man. Disagree with mainstream media and you are labeled "naive". I dont read the newspapers because they are written with such a bias you conclude they have an alternate agenda. But as long as we are considering governments who squelch opposition and subvert the law, the United States seem to lead the pack in this hemisphere. The Patriot Act was not written by Patriots, I will tell you that.

"Castro loves Haiti so much..." that he had established a medical mission there for at least 20 years. That AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, THE FIRST BOOTS ON THE GROUND WERE CUBAN MEDICAL MISSIONARIES WHO ALREADY HAD CLINICS THERE AND DID THEIR DAMN BEST TO RUN MOBILE TRIAGE UNITS for the wounded. Then when their stocks were depleted they couldnt get replenishments from the US Air Force who were air-dropping supplies. They had to get them from the French. We cant give medical supplies to Cuban doctors already on the ground because we dont support the Cuban government. That is bullshyt! Sounds like American foreign policy, social policy, emergency assistance policy, military policy is ANTI HUMANITARIAN and clearly INHUMANE. If this is what it means to be an American, then I am anti-IT.

Final point on Castro, he admitted himself that it was a bad idea to rely on the Soviet Union for assistance as a client state for so long. This "special period" he talks about, he says that Cuba should have made efforts to enter much earlier to learn at their own pace what measures were needed to be independent. Or as independent as they could be.

So I m naive Bob? To the best of your knowledge how many fat-head manifestos have you read in the editorial section of the national newspapers that always profess to know the "fixes" for Latin America? And how many "fat head fixes" have ever worked for the people in those countries?

You keep Aristide in South Africa, his message can only be delivered by proxy and subject to dilution. He comes back to Latin America and his mention is poignant and pertinent to the needs of HIS people. Not a bunch of greedy NGOs who need Haiti to remain a mess because in the words of a gambler "Baby needs new shoes."

 

[bob saunders]

Naive, you're funny man. Disagree with mainstream media and you are labeled "naive". I dont read the newspapers because they are written with such a bias you conclude they have an alternate agenda. But as long as we are considering governments who squelch opposition and subvert the law, the United States seem to lead the pack in this hemisphere. The Patriot Act was not written by Patriots, I will tell you that.

"Castro loves Haiti so much..." that he had established a medical mission there for at least 20 years. That AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, THE FIRST BOOTS ON THE GROUND WERE CUBAN MEDICAL MISSIONARIES WHO ALREADY HAD CLINICS THERE AND DID THEIR DAMN BEST TO RUN MOBILE TRIAGE UNITS for the wounded. Then when their stocks were depleted they couldnt get replenishments from the US Air Force who were air-dropping supplies. They had to get them from the French. We cant give medical supplies to Cuban doctors already on the ground because we dont support the Cuban government. That is bullshyt! Sounds like American foreign policy, social policy, emergency assistance policy, military policy is ANTI HUMANITARIAN and clearly INHUMANE. If this is what it means to be an American, then I am anti-IT.

Final point on Castro, he admitted himself that it was a bad idea to rely on the Soviet Union for assistance as a client state for so long. This "special period" he talks about, he says that Cuba should have made efforts to enter much earlier to learn at their own pace what measures were needed to be independent. Or as independent as they could be.

So I m naive Bob? To the best of your knowledge how many fat-head manifestos have you read in the editorial section of the national newspapers that always profess to know the "fixes" for Latin America? And how many "fat head fixes" have ever worked for the people in those countries?

You keep Aristide in South Africa, his message can only be delivered by proxy and subject to dilution. He comes back to Latin America and his mention is poignant and pertinent to the needs of HIS people. Not a bunch of greedy NGOs who need Haiti to remain a mess because in the words of a gambler "Baby needs new shoes."

What makes you think I only read mainstream news sources. I source left, right, and independent news sources and draw my own conclusions based on what makes sense to me. I'm not a conspiracy behind every tree person like yourself. Chavez or Castro could easily have allowed Aristide to live in their countries.