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The battle for haiti
We know that there are pool people in Haiti having a difficult time. Now make
another video of the so called elite class and denounce what they have done
to their own country, so everybody can see who are these people.
Instead of showing these pool people that maybe do not have any future
ahead of them, please show the elites.
another video of the so called elite class and denounce what they have done
to their own country, so everybody can see who are these people.
Instead of showing these pool people that maybe do not have any future
ahead of them, please show the elites.
An excellent idea show people who the Haitian elites are. Show the faces of these wicked, wicked people who love money more than their fellow man. Nobody outside of Haiti knows who they are. They've gotten away with murder, literally. Plus they are enjoying the high, high life without any recrimination. Have these people no shame?
Contrary to popular belief Haiti's "elite" aren't always the one's with the least of African features. I think the issue of elite vs. poor Haitians is too complex to try to break things down as "good/ poor" vs. "evil/rich" after all many of the so called "elite" families have done good work to try to uplift all Haitians. It's the political "machine" that's doing all the evil and they may just need to start from scratch with that.
At the end of all this it will be up to both classes along with expatriated Haitians to come together to build a homeland that will progress into the future. I think that expatriates may just be the key to this union and the possibilities for a brighter future but what do I know? I'm on the outside, looking in, helping when I can with donations and best wishes.
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This comes from a man who is born of rural Haitian stock....I cannot blame the problems of Haiti on the mulatto, middle eastern, and white business class.
There is no place on earth where people (with money) don't think about THEIR interests above the interests of others....and for the most part....the old money and business "class" of Haiti falls in line with that.
There are tons of examples of people from that social strata who view themselves as HAITIAN first and try to develop THEIR country and to help educate those who weren't born into wealth..prime example is Jean Dominique
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, but there are others who see no connection (physical, cultural, spiritual) with the masses of Haitians. This is a division that existed well before they were born or even before Haiti as a republic existed. Subsequent white and arab immigrants to Haiti adopted this "us" and "them" mentality also, for the most part. *
Similar to post colonial Africa..where different ethnic groups thrown together by artificial land borders are at odds politically and parts of eastern europe where, again, different ethnic groups existing in the same space are at odds politically.
What's unique about Haiti is that one "side" holds so much of the wealth and resources. Never (or rarely) do people have a problem with the status quo when it benefits them.
Development and education on a widescale level would upset the oligarchy.
There is no place on earth where people (with money) don't think about THEIR interests above the interests of others....and for the most part....the old money and business "class" of Haiti falls in line with that.
There are tons of examples of people from that social strata who view themselves as HAITIAN first and try to develop THEIR country and to help educate those who weren't born into wealth..prime example is Jean Dominique
=========================
, but there are others who see no connection (physical, cultural, spiritual) with the masses of Haitians. This is a division that existed well before they were born or even before Haiti as a republic existed. Subsequent white and arab immigrants to Haiti adopted this "us" and "them" mentality also, for the most part. *
Similar to post colonial Africa..where different ethnic groups thrown together by artificial land borders are at odds politically and parts of eastern europe where, again, different ethnic groups existing in the same space are at odds politically.
What's unique about Haiti is that one "side" holds so much of the wealth and resources. Never (or rarely) do people have a problem with the status quo when it benefits them.
Development and education on a widescale level would upset the oligarchy.
I see nowhere in my post where I suggested a revolution in the DR or Haiti.
In years past both countries have had revolutions. It didn't help back then and it certainly wouldn't help in today's world.
I do not have any solutions. If I did perhaps I could make billions of dollars with my brilliant ideas to fix both countries. IF I had billions of dollars I think I could help a LOT of people in both countries. I would pay off ALL the gangsters and corrupt politians to leave both countries. I would send them to a private island of thier own and let them fight over and steal each others money until they were all as broke as the poor people they are stealing from.
Interesting perspective dulce, from my humble point of view, your very wise Haitian woman has it right. Haitians as a whole have been relegated to waiting for someone to come along, normally an NGO with cash in hand. However, this is where our agreement ends and I perceive the rest of your comment turn lopsided.
In your particular case dulce, you lost me when you made the rediculos assumption that DR was in some way controlled by gangsters, and that these gangsters control every aspect of life, from government to business as they nomally do in Haiti.
I can?t help but become confrontational when ever a thread of Haiti is created, and someone usually feels the need to compare the two side of Hispa?ola. I?ve come to the conclusion that this only happens as a failed attempt by the many Haitian proponets to convince the many Dominicans (like my self) making a patriotic stand against any and all generalized idea that the ideology of both nations should merge.
Although it is true that in Haiti, gangs control who?s voted into office (as professed by you) the same isn?t so for the DR. Yes democracy in the DR is still fairly new and in some case?s still perceived as weak by many standard, but to go as far as to compare it with a failed nation like Haiti is a stretch of the imagination, and an exaggeration to say the least.
The intention of my/this post is not to veer away from the most important matter at hand (keeping Haiti in the eyes of all) but to make a clear distinction between the two nations, IMHO I feel making generalized comparisons between the DR and Haiti wont win the hearts of many on dr1, my self included.
Also with all due respect, we Dominican are a very tenacious, and resilient group of people, this is not to say that there isn?t a small number of us who wouldn?t prefer to sit around, waiting for someone to come along with cash in hand, however, the vast growth the DR has experienced in the past 30 year shows that the lionshare of us just couldn?t stand in line waiting for an NGO to give us a meager portion of what they recieve via donations, while using my nations name in the most negative way..
I am not saying that Haitians aren?t as tenacious or resilient as we are, but way too many Haitions have become mentally accustom, weakened by the free dole handed out by the more than 10,000 NGO?s that exist in Haitian today. NOTE: to all the Haitian proponets out there, don?t take this the wrong way, but simply put, we Dominicans haven?t been mentally conditioned as the Haitians have for well over twenty (20) years of receiving the free dole, this type of mental conditioning that Haiti faces today comes from many years of preconditioning which we Dominican haven?t been exposed to.
Furthermore, what you propose in post No. 27 doesn?t help either nations, because this would be more of the free dole Haiti is already addicted too, hence not helping them in any way. Moreover, the only thing you would accomplish by applying this brilliant idea of handing out billions of dollars to everyone, would be in getting the Dominican just as hooked on the free cash the world has to offer. NO THANKS, but we?ll pass.
In your particular case dulce, you lost me when you made the rediculos assumption that DR was in some way controlled by gangsters, and that these gangsters control every aspect of life, from government to business as they nomally do in Haiti.
I can?t help but become confrontational when ever a thread of Haiti is created, and someone usually feels the need to compare the two side of Hispa?ola. I?ve come to the conclusion that this only happens as a failed attempt by the many Haitian proponets to convince the many Dominicans (like my self) making a patriotic stand against any and all generalized idea that the ideology of both nations should merge.
Although it is true that in Haiti, gangs control who?s voted into office (as professed by you) the same isn?t so for the DR. Yes democracy in the DR is still fairly new and in some case?s still perceived as weak by many standard, but to go as far as to compare it with a failed nation like Haiti is a stretch of the imagination, and an exaggeration to say the least.
The intention of my/this post is not to veer away from the most important matter at hand (keeping Haiti in the eyes of all) but to make a clear distinction between the two nations, IMHO I feel making generalized comparisons between the DR and Haiti wont win the hearts of many on dr1, my self included.
Also with all due respect, we Dominican are a very tenacious, and resilient group of people, this is not to say that there isn?t a small number of us who wouldn?t prefer to sit around, waiting for someone to come along with cash in hand, however, the vast growth the DR has experienced in the past 30 year shows that the lionshare of us just couldn?t stand in line waiting for an NGO to give us a meager portion of what they recieve via donations, while using my nations name in the most negative way..
I am not saying that Haitians aren?t as tenacious or resilient as we are, but way too many Haitions have become mentally accustom, weakened by the free dole handed out by the more than 10,000 NGO?s that exist in Haitian today. NOTE: to all the Haitian proponets out there, don?t take this the wrong way, but simply put, we Dominicans haven?t been mentally conditioned as the Haitians have for well over twenty (20) years of receiving the free dole, this type of mental conditioning that Haiti faces today comes from many years of preconditioning which we Dominican haven?t been exposed to.
Furthermore, what you propose in post No. 27 doesn?t help either nations, because this would be more of the free dole Haiti is already addicted too, hence not helping them in any way. Moreover, the only thing you would accomplish by applying this brilliant idea of handing out billions of dollars to everyone, would be in getting the Dominican just as hooked on the free cash the world has to offer. NO THANKS, but we?ll pass.
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Taino,
I didn't take offense to anything you wrote and in fact you seem to be in a position to make the distinctions between your home country, and the public very visible problems of Haiti.
check your pm, I have a question that is slightly related to this thread but I don't wish to be a part of derailing a good thread.
I didn't take offense to anything you wrote and in fact you seem to be in a position to make the distinctions between your home country, and the public very visible problems of Haiti.
check your pm, I have a question that is slightly related to this thread but I don't wish to be a part of derailing a good thread.
corruption
I spent many months in Haiti and the DR after the quake. Both locations offered no REAL help from the Government or community staff members. All, at one time or another wanted paid to give the go ahead on any project we had donated our time to do. The real sadness came from knowing what the general public was going through. Operations such as ours with volunteer medical staff, rescue personnel, security and anyone who wanted to help came at a very high price. Not only in loss of life but knowing all we could do was to watch. Mainly because local officials had bled us dry. I couldn't believe how people from a country with so much need, could put such a high price on goods donated to help their own people? We couldn't move anything without paying someone. $50 dollars here and up to $4000 there? This had become an open market and if you didn't pay, you didn't get to take it. (Even though, you had brought it)? We own and operate a large medical security company that provides security to medical staff worldwide. This is the first time I had witnessed this in such a large scale. We will go back and have a two month trip planned for next month. We all are highly trained in stressful enviroments. We know that it's not for everyone. We just feel if you can, you should leave this world better than you found it. Thank you and take care.
I spent many months in Haiti and the DR after the quake. Both locations offered no REAL help from the Government or community staff members. All, at one time or another wanted paid to give the go ahead on any project we had donated our time to do. The real sadness came from knowing what the general public was going through. Operations such as ours with volunteer medical staff, rescue personnel, security and anyone who wanted to help came at a very high price. Not only in loss of life but knowing all we could do was to watch. Mainly because local officials had bled us dry. I couldn't believe how people from a country with so much need, could put such a high price on goods donated to help their own people? We couldn't move anything without paying someone. $50 dollars here and up to $4000 there? This had become an open market and if you didn't pay, you didn't get to take it. (Even though, you had brought it)? We own and operate a large medical security company that provides security to medical staff worldwide. This is the first time I had witnessed this in such a large scale. We will go back and have a two month trip planned for next month. We all are highly trained in stressful enviroments. We know that it's not for everyone. We just feel if you can, you should leave this world better than you found it. Thank you and take care.
Maybe the elites aren't the problem but a problem exists. Perhaps revolution wasn't uttered, but in my estimate it was implied in some way, that that is what both sides require. The key is the diaspora, yet sadly the diaspora becomes more disconnected from Haiti everyday that they are not allowed to be considered Haitians with full rights. I don't think that the government in Haiti will surprise us and allow the diaspora to have dual citizenship.
The international community will have to impose it's rules on Haiti that will be the only way things will get done. This earthquake offers many chances but the window to take advantage of these chances is closing.
Haitians in the government then are destroying their own country. At least in DR there are grass root movements and small political party's that are slowly, painfully slow that are trying to bring about change. The battle for Haiti is also affecting the DR, let's see where this conflagration takes us, cause it's not looking pretty.
Ca pase.
The international community will have to impose it's rules on Haiti that will be the only way things will get done. This earthquake offers many chances but the window to take advantage of these chances is closing.
Haitians in the government then are destroying their own country. At least in DR there are grass root movements and small political party's that are slowly, painfully slow that are trying to bring about change. The battle for Haiti is also affecting the DR, let's see where this conflagration takes us, cause it's not looking pretty.
Ca pase.
Taino808
I apologize if I in any way insulted you personally in my post. It was not my intent to insult anyone. I was hoping that my post did not turn into a total DR/Haiti comparision. This is why I started the post with this sentence:
"I will preface my comments by saying it is not my intent to insult anyone especially the Dominican people who read DR1"
You response was very well written and I understand your sentiments. I have lived in the DR and know many people who live as you described in your post. I have the deepest respect and love for the Dominican people and the country. The DR has made many improvements since I first started traveling and living there. I see positive actions being taken for many more good things to come.
Thank you for your response and for giving your valid opinion.
I apologize if I in any way insulted you personally in my post. It was not my intent to insult anyone. I was hoping that my post did not turn into a total DR/Haiti comparision. This is why I started the post with this sentence:
"I will preface my comments by saying it is not my intent to insult anyone especially the Dominican people who read DR1"
You response was very well written and I understand your sentiments. I have lived in the DR and know many people who live as you described in your post. I have the deepest respect and love for the Dominican people and the country. The DR has made many improvements since I first started traveling and living there. I see positive actions being taken for many more good things to come.
Thank you for your response and for giving your valid opinion.
Lando
My apologizes to you also if I personally offended you. Your statement below is very true and the Dominican people are to be to be applauded for the efforts. I am sorry too if you felt that I implied a revolution is necessary anywhere. I am a John Lennon type person. Peace and Love for ALL the world.
"Haitians in the government then are destroying their own country. At least in DR there are grass root movements and small political party's that are slowly, painfully slow that are trying to bring about change. The battle for Haiti is also affecting the DR, let's see where this conflagration takes us, cause it's not looking pretty."
My apologizes to you also if I personally offended you. Your statement below is very true and the Dominican people are to be to be applauded for the efforts. I am sorry too if you felt that I implied a revolution is necessary anywhere. I am a John Lennon type person. Peace and Love for ALL the world.
"Haitians in the government then are destroying their own country. At least in DR there are grass root movements and small political party's that are slowly, painfully slow that are trying to bring about change. The battle for Haiti is also affecting the DR, let's see where this conflagration takes us, cause it's not looking pretty."
After the earthquake the U.S. took the Haitians upper middle class and rich, while the DR took the extremely poor and all the criminals that escaped from Haitians jails.
Go article from the New York Time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/education/16winerip.html?_r=1&ref=us
Go article from the New York Time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/education/16winerip.html?_r=1&ref=us
I can't make excuses for people literally selling out their OWN people, and make no mistake that is exactly what is and has been going on in Haiti. For the most part Haitians in authority, logistic, bureaucratic positions selling out other Haitians.
To put things in context though, I'd say in 8 out of 10 circumstances...that person in the position has no qualifications, aptitude, or temperament for the job they hold. They didn't beat out other candidates because of their personal qualities, but because of some kind of connection.
Their job security isn't based on how competent they are, because competence didn't get them the job, corruption did. They know the entire system is corrupt, so while they are in that position....they will pocket as much money as they can until they are no longer in that position.
They know they can wake up the next morning and someone else can be given their job, and that they will have no recourse and no way to land another job of the same description.
The public good, public safety, the progress of THEIR country, whether other Haitians LIVE or DIE...all take a back seat to them enriching themselves as much as possible....while they are still in a position to do so.
To show you just how deeply this mentality in entrenched, look no further than the presidential palace. You'd think that, ok...the OTHER structures were shoddily build poorly engineered, cheap materials but NOT the PRESIDENTIAL PALACE, right? WRONG
when the quake hit, and all the structures crumbled....the blood of many of the dead were on the hands of individuals who years or decades earlier had sold out their people for money.
Quote from Ezquiel:
"After the earthquake the U.S. took the Haitians upper middle class and rich, while the DR took the extremely poor and all the criminals that escaped from Haitians jails."
This is not true. It may be true for Florida ( I doubt it) but it is not true in Massachusetts. I watched a show based in Boston this week which showed many new arrivals from after the earthquake in Haiti. These students were not wealthy. They go to school in Brockton, Ma. and the school system has set up many programs for them to help with the transition.
"After the earthquake the U.S. took the Haitians upper middle class and rich, while the DR took the extremely poor and all the criminals that escaped from Haitians jails."
This is not true. It may be true for Florida ( I doubt it) but it is not true in Massachusetts. I watched a show based in Boston this week which showed many new arrivals from after the earthquake in Haiti. These students were not wealthy. They go to school in Brockton, Ma. and the school system has set up many programs for them to help with the transition.
the airfare from Haiti to MA is about the same as the average annual wage in Haiti
they may not be upper middle class.. but they were certainly not of the poorest either
I truely appreciate you finding my post none offensive ,however if this is the case, why would you then go as far as sending me a very conflictive PM.
Please take note and learn, should you or anyone else for that matter, feel the need to go tit for tat, confront, or merely debate over any thread or post, I will be more than glad to oblige you in any way.. However, it behooves you to know that if you choose to send a PM as you have, I warn you that anyone not perceived as a friend runs a high risk of having their PM publicly debated. As is the case with your PM BELOW.
Very detailed post.
Have to ask you an honest question though.
To what do you attribute the relatively high rate of Dom. Americans on public assistance in America?
I don't have the stats in front of me...but Puerto Ricans and Dom.s have high rates of being on welfare in NYC area. PR is a colony of the united states and the welfare mentality has been drilled into PR culture from the US.....as it has been in Haiti from outside "aid"..
not the case with DR at all, many Dom. immigrants have super strong work ethic, but to what do you attribute the relatively high welfare % for DR immigrants?
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Also, weren't all the Tainos on Hispaniola wiped out by genocide of the Spanish "
I must confess that I don?t have the actual numbers as to how many of the Dominican diaspora living in the States lives off the government dole, as questioned in your PM. Nevertheless, I would now ask that you respecfully explain why we Dominicans just so happen to be the third (3) larges senders of remittance to Latin America, surpassing many other communities much larger in presence then us. Furthermore, your not implying that the more than 3.4 Billion Dollars of remittance sent to Dominican families on a yearly basis comes by way of government funds? Your assertion that the vast majority of Dominicans currently live high off the government dole, to me, is utterly ridiculous.
While on the subject, I will confess to not being an economist by any meaning of the word. However, by doing a bit of simple calculation, my cunclusions are a bit more telling in that Dominicans abroad are a hard working class of people, contributing to BOTH the good old US of A, and their families here in the DR as well.
Exercise (A) We already know that the total amount of remittence to the DR is 3.4 Billion Dollars annually. For argument sake, lets say that the Dominican population in the United States is of 1,600,000 people, give or take a few thousands. After removing from this number anyone not being able to work do to physical incapabilities, young/old, the currently out or in between jobs, and finally also I?m sure your favorite the well known vagabond. We are left with a total number of the Dominican diaspora able to work of ( 800 thousand) Lets also assume that the total amount of them is diligently hard at work. The end result of this exercise, is that EVERY Dominican able to work (800 thousand) would have to sends home a total of $4,250 dollars throughout the duration of the year, or $354.16 dollars every month in order to achieve the total amount of remittance sent annually. If this is the case, I would have to say not bad, considering that on average most Dominican in the United States works for minimum wage.
Exercise (B) I?ll go one further on you, lets say that the Dominican diaspora is still of 1,600,000 people, and only HALF of HALF of them after removing the incapable and unwilling to work from this list is working. While one fourth is hard at work, the other three fourth is either on the dole as you perceive them, or simply not working.This means that in such a scenarion every Dominican actually working (400,000) of them, would have to send home a total of $8,500 dollars a year, or $708.33 dollars every month, which is highly improbable, considering that we?ve already established that a high number of Dominicans work for minimum or below average pay. Either way, you couldn?t make a case beyound a resonable doubt, to prove that we Dominicans are receiving a high amount of free government dole as you state in your PM.
The above exercise, to me, contradicts any and all of your inconclusive ideas, image or thought you and any other may have of us on foreign ground. And although the numbers are inconclusive in-and-of-themselve, they do show without a shadow of a doubt, that Dominicans are just as hard working as any other group of people. AND please don?t try to insinuate that the amount of illegal Dominicans in the States abuse the welfare system, because we all know that in order for anyone to receive public assistance you have to be in the country legally.That said, I must admit that much like any other cultural group, Dominicans also abuse the failed welfare system in the States, but NOT in any way the high numbers you?ve convinced yourself.
In turn I will end this post by making it cristal clear that the only one sidetracking this thread is you, and anyone making ridiculous comments like the one you, and others have made and then expect us Dominicans to stay silent......Wrong it won?t happen. In essense, many threads become sidetracked or as you mentioned above ?derailed?. However, don?t fret because these threads aren?t a life or death situation to you or me, and thanks to the many bright, articulate and eloquent people on this forum, I am sure , that if the thread is worth keeping, the aforementioned people will do what ever it takes to realign it.
PS. I was dumb founded by the personal shot you took at me and my nik, I would respectfully ask that you revisit your stereotype, and while in the process, I?ll remind you that you will never win any debate by taking personal shots at people. I would also ask that you keep three things in mind to which your personal shots will never be able to take away from me.
(1) My love for self.
(2) My love for my people.
(3) My love for my country.
Peace out.:bunny:
P.PS. Thanks Bob S. For the data you provided.