- Thread starter NALs
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"The extinction of the Taino is a myth!"
And a final example, but there are literally hundreds of other examples where blacks are presented in a positive light, and these are songs of the masses.
[video=youtube;nNcKw69psxM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNcKw69psxM[/video]
Whomever claims Dominicans are always ashamed of the black heritage simply has no clue.
[video=youtube;nNcKw69psxM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNcKw69psxM[/video]
Whomever claims Dominicans are always ashamed of the black heritage simply has no clue.
Nals you need to move out west instead of the east coast. remember they moved a bunch of tribes.
for your reading pleasure
American Indians: Census Facts | Infoplease.com
OMHD|Populations|AIAN
The population of AI/AN including those of more than one race, was estimated at 4.9 million, making up 1.6 percent of the total population as of July 1, 2008 according to the Census Bureau; this is projected to rise to 8.6 million, 2 percent of the total population, by the year 2050.3
The greatest concentrations of AI/AN populations are in the West, Southwest, and Midwest,especially in Alaska, Arizona, Montana,New Mexico, Oklahoma, and South Dakota.2
There are 562 federally recognized AI/AN tribes, plus an unknown number of tribes that are not federally recognized. Each tribe has its own culture, beliefs, and practices.
American Indian and Alaska Native Tribes for the United States, Regions, Divisions, and States (PHC-T-18)
Lynn mentioned the current academic estimate is 400,000-600,000 and I have also read others reporting it was close to a million. The debate for North and South America before Columbus is said to be 10-100 million. Even if there were only a 500,000 people on Quisqueya, when you factor in the other two continents, I definitely lean toward the 100 million number. I would imagine these numbers to continue to be adjusted as time goes on.
Dominicans do not self identify with BLACK because to state you are BLACK in the DR is to state you are a HAITIAN and no Dominican is proud to state they are HAITIAN. Now I'd like Nals or whoever state that Dominicans are proud of their HAITIAN heritage. That would be a first!!! This applies to those Dominicans who have Haitian heritage.
There's going to be much disagreement on how many lived on the island in 1492, because no one knew either then or now. The only thing that is known is what was written by the Spanish -much of it biased against the Tainos-, what has been discovered in recent anthropological investigations, and the fact that Columbus et al never described the island as being empty, not even regions were described to be empty in the first years of the discovery.
What we do know right now is that 18% of the Dominican population has Amerindian mtDNA, that's roughly 1,674,000 people. There are over 1 million Dominicans and people of Dominican heritage living abroad, so the actual number of Dominicans with Taino mtDNA is definitely much higher.
Then we have to take into consideration that mtDNA can only prove a direct linkage to one woman 500 years ago, which is the time frame usually used in the DNA tests since that was before the massive migrations that took place around the world. It doesn't say that those are the only people with Taino mtDNA, because its possible to have Taino genes while not having Taino mtDNA.
18% is the bare minimum, how many Dominicans have from 4 or 5% or more of their genome originating in Taino populations could easily double that figure if not a little more. This is why the average Dominican's genome is 6-7% of Indigenous origin, while only an 18% has actual Taino mtDNA.
The majority of Dominicans (70% based on the study done by Dr. Mart?nez) have African mtDNA; meaning that most maternal lineages go back directly to an African woman. Most also have European Y-chromosomes, inherited from the paternal line, much of this being Spanish/Canary, Italian, French, and even Germanic in origin, as well as North African (this part is probably due to the Moorish invasion of Spain and much of it probably arrived with the Spaniards that migrated to the island.)
And last but not least, when it comes to the full DNA (also known as autosomal) and taking into account chromosomes and mtDNA from both paternal and maternal lineages; the typical Dominican has almost equal proportions of African and European genes, a smaller proportion than either of the two of North African/Middle Eastern genes, and a minority of Taino genes. For most, African DNA ranges between 40-60% and that is also the most common range for European DNA contribution.
What we do know right now is that 18% of the Dominican population has Amerindian mtDNA, that's roughly 1,674,000 people. There are over 1 million Dominicans and people of Dominican heritage living abroad, so the actual number of Dominicans with Taino mtDNA is definitely much higher.
Then we have to take into consideration that mtDNA can only prove a direct linkage to one woman 500 years ago, which is the time frame usually used in the DNA tests since that was before the massive migrations that took place around the world. It doesn't say that those are the only people with Taino mtDNA, because its possible to have Taino genes while not having Taino mtDNA.
18% is the bare minimum, how many Dominicans have from 4 or 5% or more of their genome originating in Taino populations could easily double that figure if not a little more. This is why the average Dominican's genome is 6-7% of Indigenous origin, while only an 18% has actual Taino mtDNA.
The majority of Dominicans (70% based on the study done by Dr. Mart?nez) have African mtDNA; meaning that most maternal lineages go back directly to an African woman. Most also have European Y-chromosomes, inherited from the paternal line, much of this being Spanish/Canary, Italian, French, and even Germanic in origin, as well as North African (this part is probably due to the Moorish invasion of Spain and much of it probably arrived with the Spaniards that migrated to the island.)
And last but not least, when it comes to the full DNA (also known as autosomal) and taking into account chromosomes and mtDNA from both paternal and maternal lineages; the typical Dominican has almost equal proportions of African and European genes, a smaller proportion than either of the two of North African/Middle Eastern genes, and a minority of Taino genes. For most, African DNA ranges between 40-60% and that is also the most common range for European DNA contribution.
In all Dominican censuses, between 10 to 25% of the people has identified as black. In fact, the black category has never been less than 10% and this was even before the major Haitian migration wave started in the late 1980s early 90s. Don't ignore that most censuses were done in the Trujillo era.
You do have a point, although indirectly. The argument and lies that have been spread about Dominican society, going as far as claiming that Dominicans don't like to call themselves black when a significant proportion of the population has identified as such in the censuses; is due to a pro-Haitian undertone. These are the people that are not too happy with the DNA results, because the average Dominican is proving to be quite mixed. These are also the people that ignore things such as positive usage of the word black in Dominican culture, both in the home as well as in popular culture, such as the songs I have posted here. They ignore all of that.
Many also assume that the current population has more African than is typical in most other Latin American countries due to Haitian migration, while ignoring that the DR didn't received the huge numbers of European immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th century. Argentina and Uruguay were always mulatto majority, just like the DR; except that they were flooding with Spanish and Italian immigrants in the late 1800s and early 1900s, changing the character of those places. Had those regions of the Spanish empire (as well as Cuba) not received massive numbers of Europeans in the late 1800's and early 1900's, their population today would had looked more or less as the Dominican population. A people of mostly mixed descent, with almost all lineages being among the oldest in the hemisphere.
For the most part, the Dominican that feels uneasy identifying as black tend to be quite racially mixed themselves. A conveniently ignored little fact that these DNA tests are bringing to light and a certain group of people don't like it!
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Again, when talk of extinction of the Tainos is brought up I think it is more about what the Spanish did in eradicating their tribal way of life, their customs, the gods they worshipped and family trees. Spanish did the same thing to the Arawaks and probably the Incans and others. You can talk about DNA surviving and the data that goes with it. I understand that completely but that is not really the point. Tribal extinction is much more than DNA. Prior to Colon showing up these tribes had there own way of life and they prospered.
In the name of god and greed the Spanish quickly broke down the tribal way of life and in most cases wiped it out. When a culture and almost all of its people are gone, because of forced slavery, forced religious practices and disease I would say that these people and their practices were a planned extinction. They were treated like resources and not human beings. Once they were used up then slave labor was imported. Yes, DNA survives today, the culture, expect for a minute few does not exist. Extinction, I would say so.
LTSteve
In the name of god and greed the Spanish quickly broke down the tribal way of life and in most cases wiped it out. When a culture and almost all of its people are gone, because of forced slavery, forced religious practices and disease I would say that these people and their practices were a planned extinction. They were treated like resources and not human beings. Once they were used up then slave labor was imported. Yes, DNA survives today, the culture, expect for a minute few does not exist. Extinction, I would say so.
LTSteve
What are they saying then? I agreed with them, as far as, the DNA data. I don't think you can find large populations of Taino descedents living together in the DR. This is not the same as the American Indians who live in large groups on and off reservations in the US.
LTSteve
LTSteve
That's the result of the segregation policies. The Spanish were much more integrationists, this is why there's much more Taino influence in general Dominican culture than there is Native American influences in general American culture. Aside from the unintentional killing of the Tainos due to the diseases brought from Europe, the Spanish never practiced genetic cleansing as was done in North America. The British colonists even handed out virus infected blankets to Native tribes as act of "friendship" when the real motive was to wipe out the Native Americans in order to stay with the land. When that didn't worked, the colonists (and later Americans) forced the mass migration of entire tribes from their original homelands out to Oklahoma, all done on foot, with many perishing along the way.
And now Native American tribes are characterized by one of three types: (A) Those that live on reservation and suffer from widespread alcohol and/or drug abuse, broken families, etc; (B) Those that are getting their revenge by filling their pockets through their often tax-free casino gambling concessions on their own tribal lands; and (C) Those that lived in the parts of the US that were part of the Spanish Empire (minus Florida) and by the time the Americans acquired those lands, the Native Americans were allowed to keep their lifestyles, as the Spanish had done to them. In the areas where the Americans had an interest on settling (such as southern California), the formerly mestizo (Spanish/Native American mixed race) and Spanish populations were inundated with the more Anglo variety from further east.
Even the lifestyle of those Native Americans living on reservations is quite Western now-a-days. Many even live in mobil homes. Compare that with what is seen through out Latin America where the Natives were not unintentionally wiped out from diseases. In Bolivia, Peru, Guatemala, Panama, etc; many Native communities exist in their purest Native way of life. Those that wanted to be a part of the modern world were never fully detached from their Native culture, they simply had the Spanish customs added on top. Even the Spanish adopted Native ways (and even African customs.)
I tend to not see the US treatment of its Native Americans in good light. The attempt at genocide against them in order to develop a European society on their land was too great to ignore. Similar situations happened to other groups, like African Americans post-slavery with segregation. Just as happened with many Native Americans, African Americans were stripped of their African culture to a degree that was never seen in any of the countries born from the Spanish Empire. African Americans had to re-invent their African culture, often times inventing myths and practices along the way and claiming they were of African origin. This was born out of the segregation the mainstream American society imposed on them.
I don't see how any of that can be seen in good light.
The Spanish way was and is much better. This is why even in countries such as Cuba and Dominican Republic, which are among the least Native influenced, still have a much greater and widespread Taino cultural influence than can be said of US culture, with much of the Native American culture practically restricted to those that consider themselves Native Americans. Outside of that tiny minority, not much Native American influence is present in mainstream American culture, at least not to the levels found in Dominican culture or in Puerto Rican culture.
The Spanish crown encouraged Spanish settlers to marry Native American women, the British crown encouraged British settlers to marry British women. Two completely different models with two completely different results.
Even in the Caribbean its quite clear how much less integrationist the British were, with their former islands hardly having a mixed race segment. On these islands, the vast majority of the people are of much purer African stock than on the formerly Spanish islands, especially DR and PR. The whites too are often of much "purer" stock than is the case in the Spanish Caribbean. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that its precisely in the Spanish Caribbean where racial tensions are the least tense of all the Caribbean societies.
This reminds me of when I was a university student and one of my professors had the audacity to say that Sir Francis Drake was 'not such a bad guy.' Easy for him to say since he's an American with the greater likelihood to support pro-British criminals like Drake. That's the only way someone can say that a man that once captured Santo Domingo and forced the population to fork over all the jewels after days of slicing the throat of a capitale?o in order to make his demands met; would be considered 'not such a bad guy.'
Many times people are not aware, but the former colonial rivalries still present themselves in the nations that were born out of them. Drake may be painted as a good guy in Boston, but that will not fly in Cartagena or in Santo Domingo or in Havana.
The old British looking down on the Spanish is still alive and well in the Americas; except that its not the British that are looking down precisely on the Spanish, but rather the nations born from the British Empire looking down on those born from the Spanish and thinking of themselves better when they were the one's bent on cleaning the continent of its original peoples in order to recreate Europe on this side of the Atlantic. While the Spanish adopted Native women as their wives and accepted their mestizo children as legitimate, while the Spanish adopted African women as their wives and also accepted their mulatto children as legitimate; the British were too busy worrying about keeping the blood as pure as possible and society too.
Many times people are not aware, but the former colonial rivalries still present themselves in the nations that were born out of them. Drake may be painted as a good guy in Boston, but that will not fly in Cartagena or in Santo Domingo or in Havana.
The old British looking down on the Spanish is still alive and well in the Americas; except that its not the British that are looking down precisely on the Spanish, but rather the nations born from the British Empire looking down on those born from the Spanish and thinking of themselves better when they were the one's bent on cleaning the continent of its original peoples in order to recreate Europe on this side of the Atlantic. While the Spanish adopted Native women as their wives and accepted their mestizo children as legitimate, while the Spanish adopted African women as their wives and also accepted their mulatto children as legitimate; the British were too busy worrying about keeping the blood as pure as possible and society too.
I never said anything about the conditions that American native peoples live in today. I simply said that despite their treatment that they survived as a people and you can observe this. You can not see this to that degree with native peoples in the DR. You have got to be kidding me if you think that the Spanish treatment of the Tainos and Arawaks were humane and dignified. Spanish came to the Indies with this in mind. Take all the lands discovered as their own. Take any resources for themselves, king and country. Convert all indigenous peoples to Catholicism, thus wiping out native culture and beliefs at the same time. Then, enslave these peoples to work for the Spanish. Oh yeah, forgot, anyone not co-operating just kill them and their families or take their women for your own devises. Between the Spanish treatment of these native peoples and the disease that was brought, the Taino were one a many native peoples who's way of life was basically wiped out. Yes there is native influences in these small island nations. That is basically because of inter breeding between Euopeans and indigenous peoples and that is why you see such a wide variation in skin color and features today.
LTSteve
LTSteve
Yes, native North Americans also interbred with the English, French, Germans and other European nations that came in contact with various tribes from Canada and the United States. This does not change that fact that the lineage of these indigenious people is intact in many native families today. Their family tree can be traced back before European contact.
LTSteve
LTSteve
LT Steve I think it is apparent you didn't bother to watch the video nor read the informative posts. The fact is the Taino's weren't wiped out right after Colombus but rather over time they were absorbed. Furthermore, Dominican culture adopted many words and cultural practices and also the Dominicans intermarried with the natives to such a level that 20% of all Dominicans have Taino DNA. Needless to say this is in stark contrast to the Europeans in America, who comparatively speaking hardly intermarried nor much less integrated words and customs, other than names of places. In fact there was little means by which for Americans to adopt Indian practices because for the most part most didn't intermarry. There are exceptions of course in the US like some Eastern tribes but these were exceptions to the rule.
I understand you modus operandi is do diminish the history and effect of the Taino's on the Dominican culture and people and you are not alone in this regard but the recent DNA results can't be swept under the rug and furthermore now add more relevance to the other cultural and linguistic trails the Taino left on the Dominican culture. These are facts and aren't up for debate, my fren.
I understand you modus operandi is do diminish the history and effect of the Taino's on the Dominican culture and people and you are not alone in this regard but the recent DNA results can't be swept under the rug and furthermore now add more relevance to the other cultural and linguistic trails the Taino left on the Dominican culture. These are facts and aren't up for debate, my fren.