"The extinction of the Taino is a myth!"

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NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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LTSteve said:
I never said anything about the conditions that American native peoples live in today. I simply said that despite their treatment that they survived as a people and you can observe this.
“Native Americans are the smallest minority group in the U.S. numbering approximately 1.6 million in 1986 or about 0.7% of the entire U.S. population.”
Native Americans: The Facts

The 2010 Census data makes it clear that most of the so-called Native Americans are actually mixed race people:

“Of this total, 2.9 million were American Indian and Alaska Native only, and 2.3 million were American Indian and Alaska Native in combination with one or more other races.”
Facts for Features: American Indian and Alaska Native Heritage Month: November 2011 - Facts for Features & Special Editions - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau

How does that compares with many countries that emerged from the Spanish Empire. For example, Mexico (13% are indigenous based on the mother tongue and 30% are indigenous based on self-identity), Peru (39%), and in Bolivia the Natives constitute the majority of the population. In the rest Spanish America the Native blood is found in substantial quantities among most of the population and in the Spanish Caribbean there is more Native blood than was previously thought. Native cultural influences are quite strong through out Spanish America. Even in the Caribbean there is greater Native influence in the Spanish isles than elsewhere with the exception of perhaps Dominica in the Lesser Antilles.

LTSteve said:
You can not see this to that degree with native peoples in the DR.
The DR is a small country and so is Cuba and PR, but when you look at the larger countries, by far those that came out of the Spanish empire have considerable more Native blood and cultural aspect than can be found in the US. Much of the Native culture that has survived is part of the mainstream culture of the Spanish countries. The average Dominican is much more Native influence than is the average American, even our dialect of Spanish is filled with Taino words. There is simply no comparison when it comes to this. In American English, aside from the name of various places, I haven’t noticed much if any Native American words. Its pretty much English words from beginning to end. For example. Americans refer to trees as trees, Dominicans refer to ?rboles as matas; Americans refer to frogs as frogs, Dominicans refer to sapos as macos; Americans basically live in homes with clear British/Spanish influences –depending on the region, usually the parts of the US that were of the Spanish empire tend to have more Spanish influence such as the widespread use of tile roofs and stucco/cement walls among other details-, while a significant minority of Dominicans still live in tiny wooden homes that are not too different from their origins, the Taino’s boh?os. As recent as the early 1990s, most of the populated lived in that type of home and not too long before the 80s, most of the homes even had thatched roofs, a relic of Taino “architecture.” No such thing truly exist on a wide scale in the US.

The same is true with the African influence, which is “purer” and much more widely practiced in Spanish America, even among people that don’t have African ancestry –look at Uruguay where most of the population has even adopted purely African customs despite most descending from Europeans-. The African Americans in the US, a side from a large number are of mixed race, much of their culture has been reinvented. The average Dominican is culturally much more African than the average African-American, despite that Dominicans are genetically less African than the average AA. We even have plenty of African words, although less than the number of Taino words, in our dialect of Spanish. This speaks volumes about the differences between the Spanish and the British ways.

LTSteve said:
You have got to be kidding me if you think that the Spanish treatment of the Tainos and Arawaks were humane and dignified.
From very early in colonial times the Spanish accepted that the Natives had souls and as a consequence, were people too.

The US didn’t even thought the Natives were worthy of American citizenship until 1924! This is a legacy of two things; one, the insistent rejection by the British of the Native peoples and two, the fact that even mixed race people with substantial Native blood don't feel fully at ease considering themselves simply as Americans. Such a thing never existed in any of the countries that emerged from the Spanish empire.

Even today the recognized U.S. Native American tribes are basically dual citizens. In Peru, all Peruvians are solely Peruvian citizens, the same in Mexico and everywhere else in Spanish America.

LTSteve said:
Spanish came to the Indies with this in mind. Take all the lands discovered as their own. Take any resources for themselves, king and country. Convert all indigenous peoples to Catholicism, thus wiping out native culture and beliefs at the same time. Then, enslave these peoples to work for the Spanish. Oh yeah, forgot, anyone not co-operating just kill them and their families or take their women for your own devises. Between the Spanish treatment of these native peoples and the disease that was brought, the Taino were one a many native peoples who's way of life was basically wiped out. Yes there is native influences in these small island nations. That is basically because of inter breeding between Euopeans and indigenous peoples and that is why you see such a wide variation in skin color and features today.
The “Spanish treatment” was not what caused the demise of the Tainos, it was the diseases that no one knew about back then. It doesn’t even makes sense why anyone would want to kill off the source of labor and why does Taino influence and DNA is much more heavily present in the Spanish Caribbean than is Native American influence and DNA in the USA. The fact that the Spanish themselves adopted many more Taino cultural practices as their own also puts into to question what you have implied. Its part of the myths that have been repeated through the generations and recent anthropological and DNA studies are disproving them.

In the larger Spanish countries its even clearer, as I pointed out further earlier in this post.

pelaut said:
Tell that to my native American Indian great grandmother.
Are you sure about that?

Proving Native American Ancestry Can Be Tricky : NPR
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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I am talking about the Taino and Hispanola and not South America. You are not listening to what I am saying or you just fail to want to acknowledge it. Again, yes DNA has survived in the DR but Taino way of life, customs and beliefs are for all intense and purposes are gone forever. The Spanish, harshly, used the slave labor of the Taino. This was not voluntary, this was not a choice on their part. This is a short term solution to what the Spanish needed to accomplish in the name of the Monarchy in the new world. When they used up all of the Taino work force the Spanish then imported slave labor to continue on. This certainly was a contributing factor to demise of the Taino way of life which was erradicated over a relatively short time span. Obviously this was not the only factor but it certainly was a driving force in downfall of the Taino way of life.

LTSteve
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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I am talking about the Taino and Hispanola and not South America. You are not listening to what I am saying or you just fail to want to acknowledge it. Again, yes DNA has survived in the DR but Taino way of life, customs and beliefs are for all intense and purposes are gone forever. The Spanish, harshly, used the slave labor of the Taino. This was not voluntary, this was not a choice on their part. This is a short term solution to what the Spanish needed to accomplish in the name of the Monarchy in the new world. When they used up all of the Taino work force the Spanish then imported slave labor to continue on. This certainly was a contributing factor to demise of the Taino way of life which was erradicated over a relatively short time span. Obviously this was not the only factor but it certainly was a driving force in downfall of the Taino way of life.

LTSteve

You speak with authority, unfortunately it's not based on fact.
 

LTSteve

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Chip:

You are welcome to your opinion but I am waiting for you to back it up.

LTSteve
 

pelaut

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I could be wrong, but I recall Kathleen Deagen's report showed that up to 2/3 of the Dominican population posess some Taino DNA. That's not surprising given the Spanish migration from Hispaniola as a seat of power in favor of the Cartegena/Havana axis less than a century after the discovery of Hispaniola.


From 1496 into the 1800s the north coast of the DR languished with nests of piratical vagabonds of all bloods, all of whom procreated with wantonness. Santo Domingo had become a waystation at which, like many English colonies, non-inheriting drunken ne'er-do-well sons were marooned to ? guess what ? wantonly procreate. However, since the early 16th century serious and productive colonists staked claims inland where they settled the Cibao with its farms ? procreating as only serious builders can. Today Santiagueras are distinguished for their prevalence of piel canela, pelo lisa and insouciant beauty. Two-thirds traces of Taino DNA doesn't seem enough.


Ms. Guitar has done good work swinging the pendulum of academic history back to where it belongs. She deserves great credit for the Sisyphusian ordeal of counterbalancing the massive lethargy of academia. It's a shame, however, that her conjectures seem biased by an unscientific zeal, perhaps motivated by PC/MC and Euro/White-guilt complexes so prevalent among academics. She should be leery of pushing that pendulum to the other extreme. "Guns, Germs and Steel" ("The Fate of Human Societies", Jared Diamond) undeniably played a part in the Europeanization of the western world, but the Apaches and the Tainos didn't go to the moon. A homogenized team of Americans did, some of whom undoubtedly carried "Indian" DNA.
 

waytogo

Moderator - North Coast Forum
Apr 3, 2009
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At least we know your motives.

Since you are sayin "we"..........
And speaking for everyone here...........
I don't know his motives..............
Please enlighten me..............and ALL the other we we's...........


B in Santiago
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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Chip:

I have come to the conclusion that for some reason you need to get in the last word on anything. So by all means please, please enlighten us with all the knowledge that is in your en-larged and obviously superior brain. Thanking you in advice.

LTSteve