What prevents Coups in DR

[ltsnyder]

on the general subject, not having read all, light hearted

US Special OPs have a joke about why a Coup will never happen in the US:

"There is no American Embassy in the US"



Again , more on the subject, for a Coup it take more than two to dance so to speak. My opinion is, The Coup must have a nod and a wink from the external powers that be. because the countries that have invested through the IMF excetrera have more to lose financially than any one, and if you think any reveloution/coup will be allowed to proceed with out the CIA , French security etcetera don't clear the commitment that the reveloution will honor forign debts your a fool. What Haiti had was "controlled" chaos, the US had the ships and equipment to freeze the progress in any way of the Coup/Rebellion. In the same why, I beleive as long as the Dominican Republic honors forgin debit, no revelution will be allowed to proceed, not by the DR, but by the ones due payment for the forign debit. In economic sense, coup/rebellion makes no sense unless a current government is not paying debits owed (like aristeed in Haiti ).

-Lee

 

[Texas Bill]

Maybe if I was writing a history book I would be more detail. My point was when groups of people rebel, there are sometimes historical motivators. ONe being there liberation from slavery by military means, i.e. Haiti. That is something to be commended. Beyond that, it leaves room for debate. But because of the historical event it can an could have played a motivating role in future revolts in that region..
In 1791, a successful slave revolt was initiated against the French. The Haitian slaves ousted Napoleon, and by 1804, the island becomes the first black independent nation and First Black Republic in the Western Hemisphere, with General Dessalines declaring himself emperor. With power comes abuse and the abuses of Dessalines led to his assassination. He was followed by Henri Christophe, an illiterate ex-slave who ruled in the north and Alexandre Petion, a mulatto who ruled in the south. When Christophe died the north and south united. In 1844, the island split into two countries, Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

1821 I believe, was when Haiti conquered, at the time, was called Santo Domingo. So that conquest was not part of the liberation efforts of the slaves against Napoleaon during 1791. Before 1822 between 1807-1820 Haiti was under their own Civil War that split Haiti into a North and South, so DR at the time was the last thing on Haiti's mind.

Texas Bill, I think you are trying to marry to two events as one and it was not so. But the two events did occur. Either way both countries have a beginning of revolution as many countries

I never thought that providing historical fact was concidered spewing a political agenda. i.e. socialism, liberalism, or conservatism.

I like facts if at all possible.
If you want a political agenda, then I'll throw some skewed statistical data, but facts are facts.

oh well.

"With power comes abuse"

"Now you know the rest of the story"
Good day

To the above two posters;

I stand corrected and must admit to a degree of guilt in not being fully cognizant of ALL the factors of history and taking into consideration their impact on the constituent society.

It is obvious to all that I am a strong adherant to the basic concepts of Capitalistic and Republican philosophies. I firmly believe that the philosophy of a Socialist economy undermines the basic drives inherent in the human race in that if there is no challange to the personality, then that personality degrades itself to one of dependence on someone else for survival and success in life.
To infer that humanity is basically lazy and not instilled with the basics of survival of the individual would be untenable, but populations can be led down a pathway that is eventually dibillitating to that sense of survival and I believe that Socialist philosophy is but one of the vehicles that effects such a disability of normal functions of survival and I might add, to progress of humanity.
Central control of the factors of production and of the distributive shares thereof are by no means the way to the progress of humanity in their goals of complete independence of self. In fact, such denegrates such a goal in that it insists on a dependence of control and not independence on the part of humanity.
That Capitalism AND Socialism have both their good and their bad points is a problem and privides an excellent platform for debate. However such a debate has it's place in other forums and should not be inuendoed in any of these present.
If I haven't been clear, let me know and I'll try to be a little more specific.
My previous commentaries notwithstanding, I categorically emphasize that I AM for freedom of speech and all that it encompasses, but reserve the right to attempt to refute allegations that denegrate any nations efforts to protect it's frontiers as it sees them and in support of it's historical national policy toward a particular region.

Texas Bill

 

[Criss Colon]

Don't worry Texas!

All some people prove with their wealth of "Facts" is that they know how to do an on-line search! Just like they know everything about the DR,never having done more than pass through on vacation! Ask them if they know what it is like to live here,as you do,isolated and self sufficient.You can't learn about real life by doing a "Google" search!They can fly the F-14 TomCat!....."Simulator",you fly real airplanes,who do I want at the controlls when the pilot has a heart attack?
Ya gotta love the internet,everybody can become an "expert" on anything,from the comfort and privacy of their own home!!! Cris Colon

 

[Texas Bill]

A working democracy, or at least the perception, some might say illusion, that things can be changed at the ballot box, prevents people from rising up against the government. The DR has this, Haiti doesn't.

A docile population, easily bought off by short-term benefits, will place their faith in political parties and pin their hopes on political change in the next election. Haiti hasn't been 'democratic' long enough for people to believe in this.

A government that knows which side its bread is buttered will pander to the army's every whim, and in return, the army will not depose it. Aristide disbanded the Haitian army, DR governments provide the army with excessive funding.

Revolutionary theorists used to say that extreme poverty was not a good breeding ground for revolution because people were too concerned with their own immediate survival to organise and revolt. Revolutions were more likely when people's bellies were full and they could then turn their energies to fighting injustice. The contrasts between Haiti and the DR contradict this belief. If what is happening in Haiti is a popular uprising, it is the action of a people with nothing to lose.

Chiri

Chiri, I realize that this was the first of your posts on this subject, but I feel that the statement which I have outlined above is contradictory to the facts contributing to the causes of "revolutions".
1) The French Revolution of the late 1790's-- The people were destitute, hungry, and freezing. The Monarchy and Aristocracy paid no attention to the entreaties being sent daily for more food, more work, better living conditions.
Thus, by ignoring the strife of the population, a majority of the "upper crust" lost their heads in one of te bloodiest revolutions in history.
2) The Russian Revolution of 1917 (date not exact)-- The same scenario further compounded by the untenable losses created by the inept military leadership and the constant disregard of the strife of the general population by the Tsar which led to the same type of bloodletting upon the Imperial Dynasty and the Aristocracy.
3) The Innumerable "Coups" and "Revolutions" within the borders of the Latin American countries, caused principly by ongoing abject poverty, starvation and lack of respect for humanity of the "Leaders" within those countries.

The fact fairly scream out that the conditions of servitude to which a population is relagated is one of the major causes of revolution.
Eventually, the pot boils over. And the conditions that I view today in the DR are rapidly approaching that point. Eventually, the people will kill the alligators and proceed to drain the swamp. It's unfortunate that the ones on the edge of the circle will be dead, but the center will prevail.
That, of course is merely my opinion.

Texas Bill

 

[Gabriela]

Uncle Sam

After the fall of Cuba to Castro, the U.S. decided to retain the D.R. at any cost. The message here? Dominican governments can be as corrupt as they want until Castro dies. Guess what... they got the message.

 

[Gabriela]

By the Unites States constitution each state is its own country. The Currency, Navy and post office pretty much was all that was going on at the fedral leval. In fact the US was not supposed to have a standing Army. Each state had a militia for common good. If you look at the designation of units they were WV 9th Calvery or something like that.
The southern states leaving the union would be like France telling the rest of Europe in 80 years that they were pulling out of the EU and the rest of the european countries going to war to prevent it.
John
PS the American Revolution was because a bunch of smugglers did not want to pay taxes and England got a little heavy handed with the colonials and made the average loyal subject choose a side.
John

The U.S. Civil War was not about slavery, and it wasn't started by the slaves. Tony, go back to school. No, forget it. Enjoy your ignorance.

 

[Texas Bill]

After the fall of Cuba to Castro, the U.S. decided to retain the D.R. at any cost. The message here? Dominican governments can be as corrupt as they want until Castro dies. Guess what... they got the message.

Gabby;

Were you privy to that "decision" are you just making up another baseless opinion?
I realize that the then Secretary of State made the statement, "Trujillo may be a dictator, but he's OUR dictator", when answering the questions of the press.
Is it that statement from which you make your inference? If so, you might take a look at some of the more recent "inferrences" made by both State and Treasury with regard to corruption and lack of transparency in the governence policies of the Dominican Republic.
You might also wish to defer some of your statements and/or provide a more relevant basis than your personal opinion.

Texas Bill

 

[Gabriela]

Where do you get your information?

Gabby;

Were you privy to that "decision" are you just making up another baseless opinion?
I realize that the then Secretary of State made the statement, "Trujillo may be a dictator, but he's OUR dictator", when answering the questions of the press.
Is it that statement from which you make your inference? If so, you might take a look at some of the more recent "inferrences" made by both State and Treasury with regard to corruption and lack of transparency in the governence policies of the Dominican Republic.
You might also wish to defer some of your statements and/or provide a more relevant basis than your personal opinion.

Texas Bill

I get my information from historical documents. Where do you get yours?

 

[Texas Bill]

I get my information from historical documents. Where do you get yours?

Saying is one thing, but showing is another.
Based on some of your previous comments, it would seem that you're reluctant to reveal your sources and merely allude to authenticity.
Give me some concrete references that I can check on personally, thank you.


However, back on thread again; it would seem that the reasons for prevention of coups in the Dominican Republic are as many and as varied as the days of the week and the months of the year.
By exploring all these reasons, maybe we can arrive at a consensus, although such would probably be neblous at best with no really clear definitions. We seem to always go off on a tangent to the real issue. I know I am guilty of such and have observed that in other postings.
Someone always throws in remarks that aren't relevant to the occasion or germain to the problem being discussed, and awayyyy we goooo.
I'd really like to see if we canstay on the subject for a change so I'll cut it short.

Texas Bill

 

[Gabriela]

If it looks like **** and smells like **** it is ****

Saying is one thing, but showing is another.
Based on some of your previous comments, it would seem that you're reluctant to reveal your sources and merely allude to authenticity.
Give me some concrete references that I can check on personally, thank you.


However, back on thread again; it would seem that the reasons for prevention of coups in the Dominican Republic are as many and as varied as the days of the week and the months of the year.
By exploring all these reasons, maybe we can arrive at a consensus, although such would probably be neblous at best with no really clear definitions. We seem to always go off on a tangent to the real issue. I know I am guilty of such and have observed that in other postings.
Someone always throws in remarks that aren't relevant to the occasion or germain to the problem being discussed, and awayyyy we goooo.
I'd really like to see if we canstay on the subject for a change so I'll cut it short.

Texas Bill

Dear Willie
Off topic means not something you are interested in? As for sources, there are many. Kennedy's been quoted, Johnson.... You do your own bloody research.

 

[XanaduRanch]

Basically it can be described as "learned helplessness"

The Dominican Republic, as in the U.S.A right now, is in a crisis of democracy because they have reached a point where a majority are dependent on the government for health care, education, income or retirement. The majority of Dominicans can vote themselves more generous government benefits at little or no cost to themselves.

So, how can any free nation survive when a majority of its citizens, now dependent on government services, no longer have the incentive to restrain the growth of government?

This echoes de Tocqueville's warning about government keeping people "fixed irrevocably in childhood'' rendering "the employment of free will less useful and more rare.'' It is, Tocqueville said, "difficult to conceive how men who have entirely renounced the habit of directing themselves could succeed at choosing well those who will lead them."

Who needs to "revolt" when all that is needed is "tovote?" God help us all.

Tom aka XR If you look like your passport picture, you probably need the trip.

 

[Texas Bill]

The Dominican Republic, as in the U.S.A right now, is in a crisis of democracy because they have reached a point where a majority are dependent on the government for health care, education, income or retirement. The majority of Dominicans can vote themselves more generous government benefits at little or no cost to themselves.

So, how can any free nation survive when a majority of its citizens, now dependent on government services, no longer have the incentive to restrain the growth of government?

This echoes de Tocqueville's warning about government keeping people "fixed irrevocably in childhood'' rendering "the employment of free will less useful and more rare.'' It is, Tocqueville said, "difficult to conceive how men who have entirely renounced the habit of directing themselves could succeed at choosing well those who will lead them."

Who needs to "revolt" when all that is needed is "tovote?" God help us all.

Tom aka XR If you look like your passport picture, you probably need the trip.

XR- You are absolutely right in the summation posted above.
While we may lament the failure of "true" democracy in the Dominican Republic, we must heed the cautionary note of "Democracy is doomed when the people discover they can vote themselves a 'free lunch'"!
I'm of the opinion that Dominicans have made that discovery and have thus relegated their democratic experiment to failure.

Texas Bill

 

[jsizemore]

outsider looking in

It seems to me that the current governments in the USA and Canada seem to be wanting the current people in power due to the fact that they seem to be making sure that certain press releases about the DR economy are helping the goverment justify their rule. Also the emergency loans are happening at just the right time to allow an artificial up turn in the economy.
It seems to me that a coup is underway in an economic sense.
John

 

[Texas Bill]

Dear Willie
Off topic means not something you are interested in? As for sources, there are many. Kennedy's been quoted, Johnson.... You do your own bloody research.

Gabriela;

I'll answer you ONE more time, then forget you.

You belong to that group in society who, like "Hamas", "PLO", "Goebels", and their ilk, spread HATE throughout the world for no other reason than their own seeking of notariety and agrandizement. I truly pity you.
As to doing my own "bloody" research---I do, and I check those references very carefully. That's what debating is all about! Always make sure you are quoting correctly and not out of context.

So, little Gabbie, should you ever decide to turn on the light in your soul, do so with my wholehearted support; BUT, quit spewing you HATE all over this group of message boards!

We don't appreciate it and don't want it.

Texas Bill

 

[mariaobetsanov]

The Revolution! what was that?

The military was, Well mostly involved, untill some were taken by the American without any family notification into exile! They were located in army bases in Texas for several months incomunicato. We all woundered
what had happen to half-of my uncles that were in the military. It was several months before one called my parents. Several years later I saw that Colonial City in SD was full of bulet holes. The military does serve a purpose. They are ready to act when it become neccessary.

 

[Texas Bill]

I think Narcosis hit the nail on the head!!

As an "outsider" and having been "brainwashed" in an entirely different system and under entirely different circumstances, it is extremely difficult for me to reconcile the complacency about politics, the economy, etc., that I observe daily from my isolation here in Manzanillo.
I think many of us expats are in the same mindset about these factors and have a difficult time wading through the conflicts of culture in those regards.
I have concluded that the Dominican people really don't embrase what we expats refer to as "democracy". They really don't understand the ramfications of the word. And I'm not so certain that the people of that "stronghold of Democracy" called the USA understand it either! We haven't been seen to support such either politically or economically over the past couple of decades. That's off thread, so I won't take it any further.
I am of the opinion that the main force behind the lack of "coups" in the DR has been an essential fear of the unknown and the Army, a realization that a coup will not solve society's problems, but will merely change the ones who perpetrate those problems for better or worse. They're willing to accept "what is" instead of experimenting with "what might be".
I think the political parties in the DR are like those in other countries. They represent a "Family" to the adherents and thus can do no wrong; and if they do, they're still in need of support.


Texas Bill

 

[sancochojoe]

Saying is one thing, but showing is another.
Based on some of your previous comments, it would seem that you're reluctant to reveal your sources and merely allude to authenticity.
Give me some concrete references that I can check on personally, thank you.

Texas Bill

I think if a request of references from Gabriela or anyone is needed then a request from you and others would be urged as well. If not, just judge the post as a commentary.

If we assume that references to certain historical events are static, then the argument is simply over the interpretation of that event or historical quote. Thats what makes the debate interesting.

My point is, Nobody so far has posted a single reference in their comment, including myself. So why all of sudden is their mud slinging on who has valid or credible resources. If someone post information that you don't believe or disagree with, then it is up to you to prove the poster wrong and discredit them, without the name calling of course. That alone would make the poster feel smaller than they really are.

Or maybe we should appoint a "Reference Cop" on this topic. :classic:

 

[Texas Bill]

I think if a request of references from Gabriela or anyone is needed then a request from you and others would be urged as well. If not, just judge the post as a commentary.

If we assume that references to certain historical events are static, then the argument is simply over the interpretation of that event or historical quote. Thats what makes the debate interesting.

My point is, Nobody so far has posted a single reference in their comment, including myself. So why all of sudden is their mud slinging on who has valid or credible resources. If someone post information that you don't believe or disagree with, then it is up to you to prove the poster wrong and discredit them, without the name calling of course. That alone would make the poster feel smaller than they really are.

Or maybe we should appoint a "Reference Cop" on this topic. :classic:

Sancochojoe;

Reluctantly, I must agree with you.

In any debate, references are made to comments, events, etc., alluded to particular highly visible individuals. Frequently, these references are quoted out of contex and include portions of many statements, events lumped into one single commentary.

My purpose was to attempt to isolate the references to both Johnson and Kennedy as Gabriella's supporting evidence. It is the vagueness of all her remarks and references that I was objecting to.

Since I don't intend to respond any further to her diatribes, the point is now moot. I don't have the same problem with other posters most of the time, but I will question their sources when I feel they are merely throwing out words to stimulate hate and dischord .

Texas Bill

 

[Tony C]

I Have been following this thread with amusement as I read everyones "high-brow" thoughts about how the DR prevents coups.
It is so simple. $
Just like every revolution and coup in history it is about Money and the power that goes along with it.
As long as the Generals and other officers are happy and milking the system dry you will not have a coup in the DR. The 1st Dominican President that trys to stop the Officer's gravy train will be the 1st Dominican President removed by a coup since Bosch.

 

[XanaduRanch]

High Brow!

I Have been following this thread with amusement as I read everyones "high-brow" thoughts ... As long as the Generals and other officers are happy and milking the system dry you will not have a coup in the DR. The 1st Dominican President that trys to stop the Officer's gravy train will be the 1st Dominican President removed by a coup since Bosch.

How dare you call me that! Why, I'll have you know I drink wine from gallon jugs with metal screw on caps!

You're right, of course. I tend to think in terms of the poplace rising up and smacking old Baldy on the rear, not the military. I forgot for a moment that we're in the heart of the Banana Republic belt here in the D.R. LOL.

Thanks for reminding me, Tony!

Tom aka XR Indecision is the key to flexibility.