rara music of Haiti

[Olvidado]

We love it! Specially the children playing. Thanks!!!

 

[kdolo]

Haiti/ Taino

Nothing wrong with keeping an open mind.

I have always believed that one would find some Arawak genes among haitians especially in the last areas to be settled...the deep south. It is reported that the Ciboneys were pushed to western hispaniola and eastern cuba by the tainos.

It is the cultural part that is nonexistant...either because of their small number...or the extremely primitive stage of their culture which was no match for the european and african onslaught.

that there is no Taino influence on Haiti: are you joking or just a little too strident in your ignorance ??

......."Ayiti (land of high mountains) was the indigenous Ta?no or Amerindian name for the island. "

 

[GWOZOZO]

that there is no Taino influence on Haiti: are you joking or just a little too strident in your ignorance ??

......."Ayiti (land of high mountains) was the indigenous Ta?no or Amerindian name for the island. "

Yes that is exactly what I said....ZERO taino influence in MY culture.


Using your lack of logic.

New Guinea must be full of influence from Guinea.

massachusetts, illinois and other states with native derived names are swiming in native american culture.

Puerto-Rico must have no taino heritage since it has a spanish name.


Dessalines simply choose the name he was told the indians may have called the area...as a symbol of the rupture with France...and a break with colonialism...a post-mortem gift to the indians if you will. New Guinea or New Dahomey or something african would have been more culturally appropriate......but what is done is done.

 

[dave6]

Yes that is exactly what I said....ZERO taino influence in MY culture.


Using your lack of logic.

New Guinea must be full of influence from Guinea.

massachusetts, illinois and other states with native derived names are swiming in native american culture.

Puerto-Rico must have no taino heritage since it has a spanish name.


Dessalines simply choose the name he was told the indians may have called the area...as a symbol of the rupture with France...and a break with colonialism...a post-mortem gift to the indians if you will. New Guinea or New Dahomey or something african would have been more culturally appropriate......but what is done is done.

actually Massachusetts and much of the united states has element of Native american culture within it. all one would have to do is study its history and culture and its origin

 

[dave6]

We love it! Specially the children playing. Thanks!!!

thanks os much Its a bigger hit than i thought it would be

 

[GWOZOZO]

actually Massachusetts and much of the united states has element of Native american culture within it. all one would have to do is study its history and culture and its origin

The US SHOULD have some native elements....since it still has natives...and a decent chunk of its population has native ancestry.

Haiti on the other hand has ZERO natives and a few individuals with insignificant traces of native DNA.

But why don't you tell me some of the native cultural influences going on in Massachusetts today....I have lived there "on and off" for 35 years. My kids were born there....would not want them going thru life not acnowledging the cultural impact in their lives left by the Massachusett Indian tribe.

Sart with music since you opened this thread with music.


The point you and the previous poster keep missing is that places are named sometimes purely for sentimental reasons...Like New Guinea and Haiti....and the names of many streets in the US.


Back to Haiti....a group of Haitians are actually claiming that Dessalines choosen name was Ay ti which means our home in one of the Fon dialects. Wishful thinking from Haitian afrocentrists? Maybe...but then again who knows.

Your attempt at seeing indian elements where there are none may also be wishful thinking.

 

[NALs]

Not every style of cuban music has taino influence. There has been exchanges between French St-Domingue and Eastern Cuba for a long time. Haitians took some of their rythms to Cuba and brought some back. It was an Afro-European exchange.

It was in eastern Cuba where the Taino influence has been the strongest and still is today, according to experts in this.

A few haitians having a minute amount of Arawak gene is not the same as cultural influence. You could have a 100% negro african person...if born and raised in russia among russians would have no african cultural traits. Genes are inherited while culture is aquired.

If a person is 100% African and is born in Africa, then both of his parents had to be African. To even suggest that he would not be subjected to African culture via his parents, at least at home, is quite a stretch. lol

The use of a musical instrument does not equate musical influence. let's say some haitians found a form of an Arawak instrument laying around and started using it.....they would be attempting to resonate their own culture's rythms...since they have absolutely ZERO knowledge of or exposure to the Arawak's music/culture.

But that is not how musical instruments from various cultures find themselves in a new one. For example, in order for just one Taino musical instrument to survive say in Haiti, there would have to be some sort of genetic connection, because non-Tainos would not really adopt a Taino instrument unless a Taino introduces them to such instrument.

In fact, that's how much of the Taino influence still present in Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico has survived. Most of it was created in the home through the Taino women of the Spanish men, then their mestizo offsprings passed part of that culture to their new generation, whether it was another mestizo or a new tri-racial type. Then they would pass it to the next generation and the next and the next, regardless if the racial mixture that occurs whitens, blackens, turns them more to the indigenous or keep the original mixed characteristics. With the new mixtures, new foreign cultural aspects are added to the original Taino/Spanish culture and on the cycle continues, maintaining the Taino influence as an integral part of the new hybrid culture.

We have way more Haitians with Polish and Arabic ancestry than Arawak, yet you see the almost nil cultural influence of these two living cultures.

I know that whatever Taino influence is present in Haiti is be minimal. I doubt there's no Arab or Polish influence in Haiti. For one, I have known of the blue-eyed black Haitians that still live in the area where the Napoleon's Polish soldiers settled.

Plus, the DR also absorbed a sizable Arab population and they have left a mark in Dominican culture. From the creation of some of the largest businesses to a large number of cultural and educational institutions that are responsible for much of the progress the DR has achieved is in part due to the influence of the Arabs. We have even absorbed certain Arab food, such as the Quipe, which most Dominicans think its just a Dominican invented food, but in reality its from the Middle East. Some Arabs have even been perplexed when they see the Quipe presented along with plantains, rice and beans; as if the Quipe is an actual Dominican food.

If this is the case in the DR with around 100,000 Arabs and Arab-descendants; Haiti can't possibly be completely devoid of Arabic influence.

To talk of Arawak influences on anything Haitian (from a people/culture who disapeared before the start of our history as haitians) is stretching it beyond reason.

The DNA is still there in some Haitians and that means that some time ago, a Taino mother taught her offspring some Taino cutlural traits along with the Spanish cultural traits he/she inherited from the father. That Taino trait must had been passed down generation to generation, with new non-Taino cultural additions added in each generation, but the Taino trait not fully disappearing. It could be rather small and easily overlooked, but to fully disappear is unlikely.

Its even well known that the few African slaves that escaped from the Spanish, especially at the time the whole island was under Spanish control, often fled to the mountains and there joined the Tainos, who were the one's with the knowledge of the geographical diversity of the island. Without the Tainos, the escaped African slaves wouldn't had survived at all. Most Haitians don't definitely descend from runaway African slaves that joined, mated, and adopted Taino cultural practices and knowledge of the island. But apparently some certainly do, a few, but they are still there; and this is something that can't be denied, because there is no way to falsify DNA. And when there's DNA, there is usually some cultural legacy left, whether people want to accept it or not.

We even had a small colony of Portuguese settle in the central Cibao valley, in the area of Santiago-Moca-La Vega. Their legacy today? Aside from Portuguese DNA mixed with everything else is popping up in a large number of central Cibae?os, the local dialect that includes the switching of the R's for I's is apparently an influence from the Portuguese. Are there Portuguese still living in the Cibao? Other than in a fragmented version, no full blooded Portuguese are in the area, except maybe an expat or two. But their cultural influence is exactly where they left their DNA.

This is something Haitians are going to have to come to terms with. Although I don't know why its such a disconcerting thing for you. After its said and done, the name of your country is not in French, Spanish, Kreyol, or in an African dialect.

 

[NALs]

Back to Haiti....a group of Haitians are actually claiming that Dessalines choosen name was Ay ti which means our home in one of the Fon dialects. Wishful thinking from Haitian afrocentrists? Maybe...but then again who knows.

This does sounds Afrocentric and probably explains the attempt to not even consider the very real possibility that a very small part of Haitian culture could actually be of Taino origin.

There is a reason we Dominicans have an area called Los Haitises and its not to honor Haiti, the country. Haitises is plural of Haiti, a Taino word meaning highlands/mountains.

 

[NALs]

I think the ardent denial of even the very small possibility of Taino influence in Haitian culture says more about GWOZOZO?s preferences than anything else. There are people, Haitians among them, that are open to the possibility of some Taino influence in Haitian culture.

Here are a few examples.

Overall culture:

Haitian culture is a mixture of primarily French, African elements, and native Ta?no, with influence from the colonial Spanish.

Language:

One of the country's official languages is Haitian Creole, a French-based creole with African influences, as well as minor Spanish and Ta?no influences.

Religious beliefs:

To say that Haitian Vodou is simply a mix of West African religions with a veneer of Roman Catholicism would not be entirely correct. This would be ignoring numerous influences from the native Ta?no Indians, as well as the evolutionary process that Vodou has undergone shaped by the volatile ferment of Haitian history.

Oral tradition:

I met one of the Taino group from La Gonave last May in PaP. They do have a tradition of Taino culture and stories that has been passed on in their community. They have been living in Canada and in France. The reason they have come to Haiti is because as they researched some of their oral tradition, they found connections to La Gonave in the stories. I don't know specifics, because my meeting with him was brief. He was staying with Carla and Ron Bluntschli. It was partly this chance encounter that led to my earlier question on the Taino influence in Haitian culture and Vodou.

Here is a piece on Taino influences in Cuba, one of two Iberamerican countries (the other being the Dominican Republic) that have had direct influence in Haiti:

"We are recovering knowledge that was forgotten, knowledge that my parents and grandparents had," said Fuentes, 51. "A lot of people had knowledge but lived and died without knowing its Indian origin."
Experts say Taino influences are everywhere.
?
"The Taino culture permeates the culture of Cuba in a fundamental way," explained Jose Barreiro, a Cuban-American scholar of Taino history. "It's the base culture of the country along with Spanish and African influences."

Here is an interesting quote regarding the claim that the name Haiti is of African origin instead of Taino:

Dolores Yonker points out that ?ayi? is the word for ?earth? in Fon, a language that has left a marked imprint on the lexicon of Haitian voodoo. However, her claim that this was the source of Dessalines?s inspiration has little linguistic or historical basis.

Even some of Haiti?s most respected historians, such as Jean Price-Mars, even suggested that there might be Taino influences in Haitian culture:

Some modern Haitian scholars such as Jean Fouchard and Louis ?lie have suggested that Taino Arawaks or their descendants survived in numbers into the late colonial period. Along with others, such as Jean Price-Mars, godfather of the indigenist movement, they have argued for a Taino cultural influence in Saint Domingue down to the Haitian Revolution (and beyond), claiming certain vodou chants of the revoluationary period to be Arawak war chants.

Haitian Tradition - Term Papers - Anikahoque007

Haitian Students Parent Solidarity Association

http://www.haitianconsulate.org/vodou.html

#1214: Taino People in LaGonave : Scwiley comments

Historians work to set record straight on Cuba's Taino Indians

 

[GWOZOZO]

Nals, DR's cultural situation is totally different from Haiti.

There are many errors in what you have printed above.


I will stick to the important ones.

1. Our language is not a mixture of languages and it has zero indian influence.

It is derived from Norman French with some african gramatical influences.

A few words are borrowed from other languages every day (as is the case with most languages)...mostly american english lately.

2. Haitian vaudou is mostly of Dahomean, Nago and Congo origin adapted to a Haitian environment. Add some Catholic influences and there you have it.

3. I have said there are haitians with minute arawak dna....it is so small however to make it inconsequential.

4. The Arawaks were a very primitive people whose ways did not survive in Haiti. In other words there was very little for the africans or europeans to learn from the indians. The very few natives left in haiti simply disappeared under the massive african forced migration.

5. Some Haitian historians claim there MAY be some Arawak influences, but none have been able to prove any.

6. The Poles and Arabs simply adopted the existing Haitian culture.

Some Haitians have brought into this indian mania...trying to find some connection to the natives....some haitians even consider themselves latinos....lol...lol so you see the madness and need to fit in have driven some to the ridiculous.

 

[GWOZOZO]

This does sounds Afrocentric and probably explains the attempt to not even consider the very real possibility that a very small part of Haitian culture could actually be of Taino origin.

There is a reason we Dominicans have an area called Los Haitises and its not to honor Haiti, the country. Haitises is plural of Haiti, a Taino word meaning highlands/mountains.

Possibility/could be........ do not prove anything.

That is why they remain possibilities....hell anything is possible.....but there is no need for Haitians to make a leap of faith on something so unimportant to Haitians.

The reason Dominicans do something has no bearing on what Haitians should do and vice versa.

 

[GWOZOZO]

This is something Haitians are going to have to come to terms with. Although I don't know why its such a disconcerting thing for you. After its said and done, the name of your country is not in French, Spanish, Kreyol, or in an African dialect.

There is NOTHING regarding Indians for us Haitians to come to term with. They simply do not exist in our consciousness as a people...for good reasons....nothing of them is left in us.

Trying to impose this indian thing on Haitians is similar to how some foreigners try to impose "one dropism" on Dominicans. I am sure you do not appreciate these attempts.

As for the name Haiti, it was chosen by the African leader of Haiti as a symbolic gesture. The indians had no say on the matter. He could have chosen anything. After all, were not the natives called Indians.....do they have any connection to India...of course not. The naming of the new country was just at a whim.

And now Haiti is part of the African Union.

We are an "old world" people transported to an empty land. We are geographically in the Caribbean, but that triple heritage notion does not apply to us.

 

[NALs]

Trying to impose this indian thing on Haitians is similar to how some foreigners try to impose "one dropism" on Dominicans. I am sure you do not appreciate these attempts.

Not really. Many of the most prominent and respected Haitian historians have alluded to Taino influence in Haitian culture, Price-Mars among them, and this was decades ago. Plus, Dominicans reject the 'one-droppism' because it doesn't quite explains everything Dominicans are and all the influences that are present in Dominican culture; very much the opposite of what you're doing regarding Taino influences in Haitian culture.

As for the name Haiti, it was chosen by the African leader of Haiti as a symbolic gesture. The indians had no say on the matter. He could have chosen anything.

Yes, like the New Congo, which would had coincided with the origin of most Haitians at the time of independence. But he didn't, instead he chose the name of what you previously referred to as 'people with an inferior culture.'

After all, were not the natives called Indians.....do they have any connection to India...of course not.

The Spanish didn't thought they were in India, they thought they were in the Indies and due to that, called the natives Indians. After they realized they were not in the original Indies, the original ones had their name changed to East Indies and the new ones became the West Indies.

Indies in Spanish is Las indias, and the new ones are Las indias occidentales.

And now Haiti is part of the African Union.

Congratulations.

We are an "old world" people transported to an empty land. We are geographically in the Caribbean, but that triple heritage notion does not apply to us.

OK, but there are people out there, some of whom are your people, that say that what you are claiming is not entirely correct.

There's other stuff too. Its a small influence, but its there.

 

[GWOZOZO]

1. Like you said, these historians have ALLUDED to possible Arawak whatever. That is not enough to make the case.

2. Yes Dominicans have a right to define themselves and their culture. So do we Haitians....and in Haiti's case any talk of Indian anything is just talk with nothing to back it up.

3. Again, the choice of the name was just a gesture. Any dictator can change the name...as several other countries have done. It does not mean anything.

4. You missed the point about India. The point is you are making a faulty link between Dessalines choosing the name Haiti and any Arawak influence in Haitian culture. We call people from India, Indians and we also call the natives Indians....but we all know there is no connection. I am talking about the usage of a word.

5. Some of my people also claim Haitians are Latinos......some claim Ay-ti is the real african derived name for the country.....some and many black americans claim Dominicans are denying their African heritage by hiding behind a created Indian thing...i am sure you have heard these accusations before.

That is why we should not try to impose our own understanding of culture on other people.


6. You must also understand that because of Haiti's cultural isolation in this hemisphere, some Haitians are using any excuse to show some connection to the neighboring countries......and have jumped on this indian bandwagon. It's a good thing they are in the minority.



The only thing Indian about Haiti is Desalines act of charity towards an exterminated people.

 

[NALs]

1. Like you said, these historians have ALLUDED to possible Arawak whatever. That is not enough to make the case.

Of course not. When they made the claim, things such as DNA testing was science fiction. They couldn't had known that Taino DNA is present in some Haitians, but they did noticed some traces of Taino culture.

2. Yes Dominicans have a right to define themselves and their culture. So do we Haitians....and in Haiti's case any talk of Indian anything is just talk with nothing to back it up.

Nothing that is being said here on DR1 will impact Haitian identity. In fact, no one has even suggested that Haitians are not overwhelmingly African or that the Taino influences should be the center of Haitian identity. All that has been said is that there's Taino DNA in some Haitians and, as a consequence, this gives further credence to those that wondered if there are Taino cultural influences too.

3. Again, the choice of the name was just a gesture. Any dictator can change the name...as several other countries have done. It does not mean anything.

It had to mean something, otherwise Dessalines would had chosen a name that would had remembered their African homeland, New Congo or New Africa or something else. At the end he and his advisors chose Ha?ti, a Taino name to a section of the island. He couldn't had thought of the Taino as 'a primitive people' in order to name the new country like that. There was something that his advisors saw in the Taino's that caused them to lean towards that direction. The new country had to to embody strength, perseverance, power. I say his advisors, because its well known that Dessalines was illiterate. He couldn't had read anything on the Tainos, whatever he knew about them and everything else he had to hear it from someone else.

4. You missed the point about India. The point is you are making a faulty link between Dessalines choosing the name Haiti and any Arawak influence in Haitian culture. We call people from India, Indians and we also call the natives Indians....but we all know there is no connection. I am talking about the usage of a word.

No, I'm saying that there is something Dessalines saw in the Taino's that you definitely have not seen, otherwise it doesn't makes sense why he would chose a name by a people that, to paraphrase what you said a few post back, "were inferior people." Was that the message Dessalines was trying to convey by naming the new country Ha?ti? That its a country of inferior people or that emulates inferior people or that holds in high regard an inferior people? Doesn't make sense for a group of people that had recently fought what was then a global super power and won.

As for the influence in Haitian culture, its not me who is saying there is some, its your very own historians. I'm simply saying that there is proof that some Haitians have a little Taino DNA and, just as this invalidates those that say all don't have a drop of Taino DNA; the likelihood that there is some Taino influence in Haitian culture is now greater.

The example that you use of the usage of the word Indian is a none-issue, because the Indians of the America's were never referred to in the same manner as the Indians of India. Ha?ti, on the other hand, is an indigenous name to a part of the very same island where the country exist and it was chosen by the leaders to won the independence for said country, and this says that they knew something about the Tainos that some today may want to burry and forget.

On the one hand, those very same leaders had a different view than your own opinion regarding whether the Tainos were an 'inferior people,' and if that inconsistency exist, I must ask myself what other inconsistency must also exist between what you are claiming and what is real. Is it true that Ha?ti has no trace of Taino culture or that how you want for it to be?

Is it true that Haitians have always seen the Tainos as an inferior people or did the founding fathers of Haiti saw things differently?

No one here is even suggesting that Haitians are Tainos, that Haitians should claim a Taino identity, that Haitians should see themselves as any of their neighbors see themselves regarding the Taino legacy. Its no secret that Haiti is the most African country outside of Africa in pretty much everything (people, culture, etc). But some are suggesting that there may be a small trace of Taino influence in some parts of Haitian culture, much how there is a small trace of Taino blood in some Haitians. Others claim that there is no influence and no blood from the Tainos, but the DNA tests are showing that the second claim is not 100% true and for quite a few decades some have been questioning whether the first claim is 100% true.

5. Some of my people also claim Haitians are Latinos......some claim Ay-ti is the real african derived name for the country.....some and many black americans claim Dominicans are denying their African heritage by hiding behind a created Indian thing...i am sure you have heard these accusations before.

Yes, I've heard the usual arguments that are used, especially in the United States, to coerced the mixed race people into a monoracial identity. I'm also perfectly aware that in such cultures, including among many Haitians, any claim beyond the African is seen with suspicion, as if its an attempt to reject or reduce African influence. They don't see it as an attempt to see and accept reality as it is. I'm very much aware that there are people afraid of criticism that they conform to the accepted norms simply to not have to deal with such criticism. And I'm also aware that there are people that have an interest in not recognizing certain aspects of their societies, even when its a very small part. They don't want to even say that there is a very small influence, as if that's going to make it go away or as if recognizing that very small influence would make the typical Haitian less black or less African. lol

That is why we should not try to impose our own understanding of culture on other people.

Yes, and no one has been trying to impose anyone else's 'understanding of culture on other people.' Some of us are simply saying that there is a possibility that there's more to Haitian culture that what appears and what most say. That's all and for some reason, some feel very uncomfortable with that. This is just a conversation between you and me, how will this influence all of Haiti? lol

6. You must also understand that because of Haiti's cultural isolation in this hemisphere, some Haitians are using any excuse to show some connection to the neighboring countries......and have jumped on this indian bandwagon. It's a good thing they are in the minority.

I don't know about that, because Haiti is not the only country to have African culture, that would create a connection with a few countries. Haiti is not the only country to have French influence, that would also make a connection with some overseas departments, states, and provinces of some American and European countries. Haiti is not the only country with some Spanish influence or Cuban/Dominican influence, or you fill in the blank. The Taino is just one more piece to the puzzle, a very small and hardly visible piece, but a piece none-the-less; but despite its minute size, some fear it as if it was the beginning of a crisis. I really don't understand the adamant rejection of something that with time the possibility it will gain recognition is growing rather than diminishing. What is giving the push are not historians or sociologists or anthropologists; the push is coming from DNA tests, which is something that can't be falsified.

As Dr. Martinez said in the Taino video that was presented in the Poll's forum: "DNA tests are what they are and the Scientist's role is to show people the results as they are. This may be good for some people, but for other people; but its the truth!" If you know Spanish, you can see it yourself.

Anyway, I will not continue with this. I used to be like you concerning Haiti and the remote possibility of some Taino influence in Haitian culture. I used to reject that notion due to thinking there was no Taino DNA in the Haitian population, not even a tiny 0.5% of anyone's DNA, which would had pointed towards the existence of at least 5 direct ancestors 9 generations ago that needed to exist in order for the person(s) carrying that 0.5% Taino DNA to had come into existence. If you were able to go back in time and take one ancestor out of someone's genealogical tree, and that would be enough to ensure that every person that descend from them, even well into the future and with a DNA that is 99.5% something else, to had never been born.

When DNA exist, usually something of its culture remains, even if its a tiny amount and hardly noticeable. In such cultures, there should be no problem is saying that a small trace of Taino influence exist in some cultural aspects.

The only thing Indian about Haiti is Desalines act of charity towards an exterminated people.

I would had agreed with you this time last year. What a difference a year makes! lol

I'm not continuing with this, but if you want to respond, go ahead.

 

[dave6]

Of course not. When they made the claim, things such as DNA testing was science fiction. They couldn't had known that Taino DNA is present in some Haitians, but they did noticed some traces of Taino culture.


Nothing that is being said here on DR1 will impact Haitian identity. In fact, no one has even suggested that Haitians are not overwhelmingly African or that the Taino influences should be the center of Haitian identity. All that has been said is that there's Taino DNA in some Haitians and, as a consequence, this gives further credence to those that wondered if there are Taino cultural influences too.


It had to mean something, otherwise Dessalines would had chosen a name that would had remembered their African homeland, New Congo or New Africa or something else. At the end he and his advisors chose Ha?ti, a Taino name to a section of the island. He couldn't had thought of the Taino as 'a primitive people' in order to name the new country like that. There was something that his advisors saw in the Taino's that caused them to lean towards that direction. The new country had to to embody strength, perseverance, power. I say his advisors, because its well known that Dessalines was illiterate. He couldn't had read anything on the Tainos, whatever he knew about them and everything else he had to hear it from someone else.


No, I'm saying that there is something Dessalines saw in the Taino's that you definitely have not seen, otherwise it doesn't makes sense why he would chose a name by a people that, to paraphrase what you said a few post back, "were inferior people." Was that the message Dessalines was trying to convey by naming the new country Ha?ti? That its a country of inferior people or that emulates inferior people or that holds in high regard an inferior people? Doesn't make sense for a group of people that had recently fought what was then a global super power and won.

As for the influence in Haitian culture, its not me who is saying there is some, its your very own historians. I'm simply saying that there is proof that some Haitians have a little Taino DNA and, just as this invalidates those that say all don't have a drop of Taino DNA; the likelihood that there is some Taino influence in Haitian culture is now greater.

The example that you use of the usage of the word Indian is a none-issue, because the Indians of the America's were never referred to in the same manner as the Indians of India. Ha?ti, on the other hand, is an indigenous name to a part of the very same island where the country exist and it was chosen by the leaders to won the independence for said country, and this says that they knew something about the Tainos that some today may want to burry and forget.

On the one hand, those very same leaders had a different view than your own opinion regarding whether the Tainos were an 'inferior people,' and if that inconsistency exist, I must ask myself what other inconsistency must also exist between what you are claiming and what is real. Is it true that Ha?ti has no trace of Taino culture or that how you want for it to be?

Is it true that Haitians have always seen the Tainos as an inferior people or did the founding fathers of Haiti saw things differently?

No one here is even suggesting that Haitians are Tainos, that Haitians should claim a Taino identity, that Haitians should see themselves as any of their neighbors see themselves regarding the Taino legacy. Its no secret that Haiti is the most African country outside of Africa in pretty much everything (people, culture, etc). But some are suggesting that there may be a small trace of Taino influence in some parts of Haitian culture, much how there is a small trace of Taino blood in some Haitians. Others claim that there is no influence and no blood from the Tainos, but the DNA tests are showing that the second claim is not 100% true and for quite a few decades some have been questioning whether the first claim is 100% true.


Yes, I've heard the usual arguments that are used, especially in the United States, to coerced the mixed race people into a monoracial identity. I'm also perfectly aware that in such cultures, including among many Haitians, any claim beyond the African is seen with suspicion, as if its an attempt to reject or reduce African influence. They don't see it as an attempt to see and accept reality as it is. I'm very much aware that there are people afraid of criticism that they conform to the accepted norms simply to not have to deal with such criticism. And I'm also aware that there are people that have an interest in not recognizing certain aspects of their societies, even when its a very small part. They don't want to even say that there is a very small influence, as if that's going to make it go away or as if recognizing that very small influence would make the typical Haitian less black or less African. lol


Yes, and no one has been trying to impose anyone else's 'understanding of culture on other people.' Some of us are simply saying that there is a possibility that there's more to Haitian culture that what appears and what most say. That's all and for some reason, some feel very uncomfortable with that. This is just a conversation between you and me, how will this influence all of Haiti? lol


I don't know about that, because Haiti is not the only country to have African culture, that would create a connection with a few countries. Haiti is not the only country to have French influence, that would also make a connection with some overseas departments, states, and provinces of some American and European countries. Haiti is not the only country with some Spanish influence or Cuban/Dominican influence, or you fill in the blank. The Taino is just one more piece to the puzzle, a very small and hardly visible piece, but a piece none-the-less; but despite its minute size, some fear it as if it was the beginning of a crisis. I really don't understand the adamant rejection of something that with time the possibility it will gain recognition is growing rather than diminishing. What is giving the push are not historians or sociologists or anthropologists; the push is coming from DNA tests, which is something that can't be falsified.

As Dr. Martinez said in the Taino video that was presented in the Poll's forum: "DNA tests are what they are and the Scientist's role is to show people the results as they are. This may be good for some people, but for other people; but its the truth!" If you know Spanish, you can see it yourself.

Anyway, I will not continue with this. I used to be like you concerning Haiti and the remote possibility of some Taino influence in Haitian culture. I used to reject that notion due to thinking there was no Taino DNA in the Haitian population, not even a tiny 0.5% of anyone's DNA, which would had pointed towards the existence of at least 5 direct ancestors 9 generations ago that needed to exist in order for the person(s) carrying that 0.5% Taino DNA to had come into existence. If you were able to go back in time and take one ancestor out of someone's genealogical tree, and that would be enough to ensure that every person that descend from them, even well into the future and with a DNA that is 99.5% something else, to had never been born.

When DNA exist, usually something of its culture remains, even if its a tiny amount and hardly noticeable. In such cultures, there should be no problem is saying that a small trace of Taino influence exist in some cultural aspects.


I would had agreed with you this time last year. What a difference a year makes! lol

I'm not continuing with this, but if you want to respond, go ahead.

NALs you are are debating with a man who calls himself gwozozo and that translates to big penis. You are trying to rationalize with someone who has a built in inferiority complex and needs to promote his penis size as a means to build his self esteem. he will fight over anything its part of his inferiority complex.

 

[GWOZOZO]

Thank You Nals for your thoughtful post.

We are just going to agree to disagree on that one.

As you said Desalines was not literate and only heard about the Arawaks.

The name was chosen as a rejection of french colonialism...and what better way to show that rejection than by renaming the land with an adaptation of its pre-colonial name.

On a side note, New Congo would have been a no go as the congos were the last arrived and least creolized and not seen in a good light by the creole negros. New Guinea or New Dahomey would have been more likely. But this modern african sensibility was not there at the time.


At the end of the day, what matters is how the Haitians see themselves. The African is there for all to see. We can't reject the French because it is there for all to hear. The Arawak however is pure speculation and therefore has no place in our "patrimoine".

Yes some Haitians will have a little native dna...as would all new world blacks. Cultural influence however is a totally different matter.

I enjoyed our exchange...and you are right...... among Haitians any pro-indian theorist would have been chased away....lol...lol...... hey it is what it is.

 

[dave6]

Thank You Nals for your thoughtful post.

We are just going to agree to disagree on that one.

As you said Desalines was not literate and only heard about the Arawaks.

The name was chosen as a rejection of french colonialism...and what better way to show that rejection than by renaming the land with an adaptation of its pre-colonial name.

On a side note, New Congo would have been a no go as the congos were the last arrived and least creolized and not seen in a good light by the creole negros. New Guinea or New Dahomey would have been more likely. But this modern african sensibility was not there at the time.


At the end of the day, what matters is how the Haitians see themselves. The African is there for all to see. We can't reject the French because it is there for all to hear. The Arawak however is pure speculation and therefore has no place in our "patrimoine".

Yes some Haitians will have a little native dna...as would all new world blacks. Cultural influence however is a totally different matter.

I enjoyed our exchange...and you are right...... among Haitians any pro-indian theorist would have been chased away....lol...lol...... hey it is what it is.

and you see he admits his level of insight and thinking. big pee pee here does not believe in concepts like the socratic method where people find truth through rigorous debate and insight he believes in chasing people away who have different ideas and theories and saying it is what it is. this is his philosophy and sadly many people in Haiti think like this.... It is what it is lol now chase him away. very childish mindset i agree but you know ....."IT IS WHAT IT IS"

 

[tuananhpl1]

nice video

 

[dave6]

nice video

thanks