Haiti recalling Ambassador from DR

[GWOZOZO]

I really don't see a solution to this problem as Dominicans will not allow a subtle takeover of Haitians(this is how it's being viewed) If things are not resolved in a diplomatic way, I don't see anything good coming out of this.

And that takes us to the only solution.

International involvement a la Palestine / Kurdistan.

It is a country's responsibility to not allow an unwanted ethnic/racial group into its borders.......legal or not...to work or not....to visit or not. And then allowing them to give birth in your country....to work...go to school..and keep giving birth...tsk tsk tsk tsk. They become the responsibility of that country.

Haiti itself has nothing to do with this issue....and Haiti does not have a responsibility to accept people not BORN in Haiti....it can offer citizenship IF IT CHOOSES TO....but does not have to.

Ever since I became aware of the DR....I have been advocating the full closure of that border.

So now these unwanted dominicans will have to ask for their own piece of land within their country of birth....and be willing to fight for it.

Other minorities in other countries have done so.

 

[bob saunders]

And that takes us to the only solution.

International involvement a la Palestine / Kurdistan.

It is a country's responsibility to not allow an unwanted ethnic/racial group into its borders.......legal or not...to work or not....to visit or not. And then allowing them to give birth in your country....to work...go to school..and keep giving birth...tsk tsk tsk tsk. They become the responsibility of that country.

Haiti itself has nothing to do with this issue....and Haiti does not have a responsibility to accept people not BORN in Haiti....it can offer citizenship IF IT CHOOSES TO....but does not have to.

Ever since I became aware of the DR....I have been advocating the full closure of that border.

So now these unwanted dominicans will have to ask for their own piece of land within their country of birth....and be willing to fight for it.

Other minorities in other countries have done so.

So you recommend kicking the pregnant teenager suffering from a mired of medical issues back across the border to have their baby, without any humanitarian concerns. The door at the Inn is closed?

 

[GWOZOZO]

So you recommend kicking the pregnant teenager suffering from a mired of medical issues back across the border to have their baby, without any humanitarian concerns. The door at the Inn is closed?

What I am saying is...DR is responsible for allowing Haitians on its territory.....allowing them to go to school.....to work...etc...etc.

Once people are in....of course they are going to breed.....that is what humans do....they breed.

A strict NO HAITIAN policy on all level would have prevented this.

By insisting on trades with haiti and using haitian labour, DR has created this situation...and now must deal with the consequence.

Just as black africans could morally support the negro civil right movement in the US....we Haitians wish these poor souls good luck. But it should not be an issue for the Haitian state.

Haiti's concern should be Haitian citizens...and the protection of Haiti's markets from Dominican goods and services.

 

[bronzeallspice]

And that takes us to the only solution.

International involvement a la Palestine / Kurdistan.

It is a country's responsibility to not allow an unwanted ethnic/racial group into its borders.......legal or not...to work or not....to visit or not. And then allowing them to give birth in your country....to work...go to school..and keep giving birth...tsk tsk tsk tsk. They become the responsibility of that country.

Haiti itself has nothing to do with this issue....and Haiti does not have a responsibility to accept people not BORN in Haiti....it can offer citizenship IF IT CHOOSES TO....but does not have to.

Ever since I became aware of the DR....I have been advocating the full closure of that border.

So now these unwanted dominicans will have to ask for their own piece of land within their country of birth....and be willing to fight for it.

Other minorities in other countries have done so.

Really, completely close the border? And you would've seen Haitians crying out to the international
community and the UN(like they're doing now) about the DR not being humanitarian.

The UN would've imposed sanctions on the DR. It's just not possible.

What needs to be done is to control the amount of illegals which they're trying to do now.

 

[GWOZOZO]

Really, completely close the border? And you would've seen Haitians crying out to the international
community and the UN(like they're doing now) about the DR not being humanitarian.

The UN would've imposed sanctions on the DR. It's just not possible.

What needs to be done is to control the amount of illegals which they're trying to do now.

More excuses.

So what some people cry...are they not crying now???

There would be no sanction imposed on any country for controlling its border as tight as it wants.

 

[delite]

More excuses.

So what some people cry...are they not crying now???

There would be no sanction imposed on any country for controlling its border as tight as it wants.

Gwozozo,

This situation is far more complex than what you constantly repeat here. That's a porous border and no one could just shut it down. Haitians would find their way across that border even if the Dominicans were to place 1,000 soldiers.

You've this simplistic, almost trivial, way of dealing with a serious problem. Just send them back...close the border...don't encourage them, etc.

I'm sure if you live in the States, you understand the situation with illegals, mostly from the south. We've erected a wall thousands of miles long, border patrols, ICE, etc. Yes, we have reduced the numbers entering considerably, however, we haven't completely restricted the flow.

Mexico is inextricably connected to the United States by land, culture, history, trade, etc. just like Haiti is to DR. You appear to be an intelligent fellow but your suggestions cannot be taken more than that of a detached individual speaking from a position of privilege.

 

[GWOZOZO]

Gwozozo,

This situation is far more complex than what you constantly repeat here. That's a porous border and no one could just shut it down. Haitians would find their way across that border even if the Dominicans were to place 1,000 soldiers.

You've this simplistic, almost trivial, way of dealing with a serious problem. Just send them back...close the border...don't encourage them, etc.

I'm sure if you live in the States, you understand the situation with illegals, mostly from the south. We've erected a wall thousands of miles long, border patrols, ICE, etc. Yes, we have reduced the numbers entering considerably, however, we haven't completely restricted the flow.

Mexico is inextricably connected to the United States by land, culture, history, trade, etc. just like Haiti is to DR. You appear to be an intelligent fellow but your suggestions cannot be taken more than that of a detached individual speaking from a position of privilege.

Not detached...but a student of history who understands that sometimes harsh measures are needed to secure a better future.

Someone who could not give a rat's azz about Political correctness.


No border SEALING would be perfect.

The Haiti/DR border is not that long.

Haitians are of a different racial make-up and can easily be identified. They can't just melt in the population.

Other measures.......access to employment....education...health care...etc....would have kept those who sneak in to a minimum.

The US as an advanced and socially liberal country has chosen not to take the necessary actions to protect its southern border. It can afford to and there is no historical hatred between the US and Mexico.

DR business and government elites DO NOT want to take the required measures...because they benefit from it.

With the benefit of haitian cheap labour and full access to the non-productive haitian market...comes haiti's poor.

DR wants to have it both ways...it is not going to happen....these people born on DR soil are solely the responsibility of DR.

DR can do whatever it wants...and it is up to that minority to respond accordingly to protect itself or force change.

 

[GWOZOZO]

We were talking about the issue on another site, and someone suggested a Cyprus solution when the bloodletting starts and the international gets involved.

A far fetch approach....but still worth a discussion.

 

[delite]

Not detached...but a student of history who understands that sometimes harsh measures are needed to secure a better future.

Someone who could not give a rat's azz about Political correctness.


No border SEALING would be perfect.

The Haiti/DR border is not that long.

Haitians are of a different racial make-up and can easily be identified. They can't just melt in the population.

Other measures.......access to employment....education...health care...etc....would have kept those who sneak in to a minimum.

The US as an advanced and socially liberal country has chosen not to take the necessary actions to protect its southern border. It can afford to and there is no historical hatred between the US and Mexico.

DR business and government elites DO NOT want to take the required measures...because they benefit from it.

With the benefit of haitian cheap labour and full access to the non-productive haitian market...comes haiti's poor.

DR wants to have it both ways...it is not going to happen....these people born on DR soil are solely the responsibility of DR.

DR can do whatever it wants...and it is up to that minority to respond accordingly to protect itself or force change.

Well you haven't uttered anything that isn't readily available in the public consumption, in fact, you've articulated some of the principal problems - who are the benefactors and who are being exploited. Now what is the politically incorrect solution? What are the harsh measures to being semblance of order to this cascading situation?

Previously, you'd cautioned me about not being emotional about two non important countries. I think you can heed your own advice pertaining to this situation.
Your ambassador has been recalled home effective Tuesday as a protest to highlight the recent verdict by the Dominican Constitutional Court. Is this a harsh move or a politically correct one?

From as long as I can remember, the Haitians have always been exploited. Instead of continuously saying that the Dominicans can do whatever they want, it's their country. What is Haiti doing, or has done, to curb this migration? Allowing generation after generation of its people to seek refuge in another country because they're almost dying in their homeland is irresponsible and neglectful to the highest degree. The first tenet of any government is the protection and security of its citizens.

DR business elites have a need and Haiti's poor are eager to fill that void. You said they (DR) want to have it both ways but it's not going to happen. Again, what is the solution to this bluster?

All around the world, we have people who arrived in the States as infants, were grown and nurtured here, then suddenly they committed crimes and are deported to their homelands. I shriek to state that they are returned home because they spent a majority of their lives living in a culture, diametrically opposed to what they eventually return to.

Most of those countries aren't just saying,"well America has a right to deport anyone who isn't a citizen." No! You have grassroots organizations fighting this law because it's creating an upsurge in crimes, additional burden on infrastructure, etc.

My point is that we are addressing people in dire need, for the most part, and both countries have to sit at the dialogue table seeking solutions. Sealing borders, preventing education, health care, and refusing employment, are all targets, however, common sense has to supersede irrationality.

 

[Frank the Tank]

No child born in any country should have citizenship of that country unless at least 1 parent is a citizen or legal resident. Period.

 

[Castle]

To me, nothing defines a person's nationality more than the country they are born in.
What else could be a nationality? How far are we going to take this stupid ethnic definitions?
So what defines a dominican (or any other nationality)? culture? ethnicity? contribution? Let's say it clear and act in consequence.
If a dominican is a person with dominican culture and customs, let's strip of the citizenships all those who don't have that.
If a dominican is a person born to dominican parents, let's strip of the citizenships all those whose parents are not dominicans
If a dominican is a person born to fathers who reside legally in DR, let's strip of the citizenship all those born in a different country.
Or are we going to surgically separate those who we don't want from those who we don't mind having as fellow dominicans? juggling combinations until we find the one that doesn't threaten our personal insecurities?

This is sick. So sick that I'm certainly rethinking my decision of soon becoming a dominican by naturalization. After all, my parents are not dominican, I wasn't born in DR and I certainly don't have dominican customs and culture. I don't feel I deserve to be a dominican anymore than those who were born here and who can't answer for their parents' decisions.

 

[mountainannie]

Delite.. Imagine what the world would be saying about Haiti if they were somehow stopping their citizens from trying to emigrate? a la Cuba? There was a big outcry when Haiti stopped internation adoptions for a while after the earthquake when those Americans came down to "rescue" those children. So really is it any country's responsability to stop its citizen's from leaving? that is really the basic definition of a free country, is it not? that you can leave, right?

And the DR makes it not only easy but welcoming for illegal immigrants. The gates are open twice a week with no checks on papers. Just think of what Arizona and California would look like if the gates to Mexico were open for shopping two days a week with no identity checks? Haiti has asked for this to be only one day a week but the DR has refused. Because they get money from the taxes. The Haitians who come in are simply on their honor to return.. but there are plenty of places to run to and hide away from the authorities.

Then the DR offers free medical care. Free maternity care. Even transports difficult cases from the border to the Capital. Then enrolls the children in school for free for the first six years. It almost seems that they WANT this immigration.

I have yet to hear of someone who was turned down for a work visa from the DR by the embassy in Port Au Prince.. but that may change/ and those people are automatically considered "in transit" day laborers.. etc.. do not have to get their cedulas to work, etc..

So, really, I do think that it is the DR that has set this one up. In the Court decision it was said that all the children born to Haitians are Haitian but that is not my reading of the 1987 Constitution.. but I am not a member of the InterAmerican Court.

The Court decision does cite other Latin American countries.. so the DR is clearly trying to clear this situation up. They are saying that this may affect over 680,000 persons and I certainly think that it is not their intention to deport that many. But I am salso pretty sure that whatever they come up with is not going to please everyone.

Also.. there is press that says that the Haitian ambassador was recalled for consultation.

 

[bronzeallspice]

To me, nothing defines a person's nationality more than the country they are born in.
What else could be a nationality? How far are we going to take this stupid ethnic definitions?
So what defines a dominican (or any other nationality)? culture? ethnicity? contribution? Let's say it clear and act in consequence.
If a dominican is a person with dominican culture and customs, let's strip of the citizenships all those who don't have that.
If a dominican is a person born to dominican parents, let's strip of the citizenships all those whose parents are not dominicans
If a dominican is a person born to fathers who reside legally in DR, let's strip of the citizenship all those born in a different country.
Or are we going to surgically separate those who we don't want from those who we don't mind having as fellow dominicans? juggling combinations until we find the one that doesn't threaten our personal insecurities?

This is sick. So sick that I'm certainly rethinking my decision of soon becoming a dominican by naturalization. After all, my parents are not dominican, I wasn't born in DR and I certainly don't have dominican customs and culture. I don't feel I deserve to be a dominican anymore than those who were born here and who can't answer for their parents' decisions.

Castle, unfortunately for you that's how the Dominican Constitution defines who's a citizen and who is not.

If this is how you feel then I agree with you in not obtaining a Dominican citizenship. This is how it is and
Dominicans are not going to change it to suit anyone.

I've said it many times, before moving to any country do your homework diligently, study the culture, history and laws prior to making a move. That way later on there will be no regrets.

 

[Castle]

Castle, unfortunately for you that's how the Dominican Constitution defines who's a citizen and who is not.

If this is how you feel then I agree with you in not obtaining a Dominican citizenship. This is how it is and
Dominicans are not going to change it to suit anyone.

I've said it many times, before moving to any country do your homework diligently, study the culture, history and laws prior to making a move. That way later on there will be no regrets.

Well, I don't have to get the citizenship. I'm a permanent resident until some other "clarification" of the constitution comes up. I wanted to be a dominican out of love for the country, not because it represents any benefit per se. I wanted to do it out of appreciation for all this country has given me over the years. But maybe now I see I wouldn't have been that lucky if I were haitian. And I really don't feel in tune with this "re-clarified" view of dominican citizenship. I'll wait and see, hoping better times for this blessed land and better judgement for its leaders lay ahead.

 

[bronzeallspice]

Delite.. Imagine what the world would be saying about Haiti if they were somehow stopping their citizens from trying to emigrate? a la Cuba? There was a big outcry when Haiti stopped internation adoptions for a while after the earthquake when those Americans came down to "rescue" those children. So really is it any country's responsability to stop its citizen's from leaving? that is really the basic definition of a free country, is it not? that you can leave, right?

And the DR makes it not only easy but welcoming for illegal immigrants. The gates are open twice a week with no checks on papers. Just think of what Arizona and California would look like if the gates to Mexico were open for shopping two days a week with no identity checks? Haiti has asked for this to be only one day a week but the DR has refused. Because they get money from the taxes. The Haitians who come in are simply on their honor to return.. but there are plenty of places to run to and hide away from the authorities.

Then the DR offers free medical care. Free maternity care. Even transports difficult cases from the border to the Capital. Then enrolls the children in school for free for the first six years. It almost seems that they WANT this immigration.

I have yet to hear of someone who was turned down for a work visa from the DR by the embassy in Port Au Prince.. but that may change/ and those people are automatically considered "in transit" day laborers.. etc.. do not have to get their cedulas to work, etc..

So, really, I do think that it is the DR that has set this one up. In the Court decision it was said that all the children born to Haitians are Haitian but that is not my reading of the 1987 Constitution.. but I am not a member of the InterAmerican Court.

The Court decision does cite other Latin American countries.. so the DR is clearly trying to clear this situation up. They are saying that this may affect over 680,000 persons and I certainly think that it is not their intention to deport that many. But I am salso pretty sure that whatever they come up with is not going to please everyone.

Also.. there is press that says that the Haitian ambassador was recalled for consultation.

MA, I really don't see a problem with the DR helping Haitians with free medical care and schooling
to help these poor Haitians. After all that's being humanitarian.

I don't see anything wrong in helping Haitians obtain an education in the hopes that they will return
to their country but Dominicans are finding out that this is not the case. Instead they are staying and
thus becoming a burden.

 

[delite]

Delite.. Imagine what the world would be saying about Haiti if they were somehow stopping their citizens from trying to emigrate? a la Cuba? There was a big outcry when Haiti stopped internation adoptions for a while after the earthquake when those Americans came down to "rescue" those children. So really is it any country's responsability to stop its citizen's from leaving? that is really the basic definition of a free country, is it not? that you can leave, right?

And the DR makes it not only easy but welcoming for illegal immigrants. The gates are open twice a week with no checks on papers. Just think of what Arizona and California would look like if the gates to Mexico were open for shopping two days a week with no identity checks? Haiti has asked for this to be only one day a week but the DR has refused. Because they get money from the taxes. The Haitians who come in are simply on their honor to return.. but there are plenty of places to run to and hide away from the authorities.

Then the DR offers free medical care. Free maternity care. Even transports difficult cases from the border to the Capital. Then enrolls the children in school for free for the first six years. It almost seems that they WANT this immigration.

I have yet to hear of someone who was turned down for a work visa from the DR by the embassy in Port Au Prince.. but that may change/ and those people are automatically considered "in transit" day laborers.. etc.. do not have to get their cedulas to work, etc..

So, really, I do think that it is the DR that has set this one up. In the Court decision it was said that all the children born to Haitians are Haitian but that is not my reading of the 1987 Constitution.. but I am not a member of the InterAmerican Court.

The Court decision does cite other Latin American countries.. so the DR is clearly trying to clear this situation up. They are saying that this may affect over 680,000 persons and I certainly think that it is not their intention to deport that many. But I am salso pretty sure that whatever they come up with is not going to please everyone.

Also.. there is press that says that the Haitian ambassador was recalled for consultation.

My contention isn't that the DR isn't culpable; I've said that they have needs which are eagerly filled by Haitians seeking to improve their living standards. However, I believe like you, that this vulnerable population needs to be protected.

I don't agree with Gwozozo who blames the DR as "their" problem because they provide these basic humanitarian needs. It's ironic that they are accused of all these ills but also in the same realm, provide badly needed services. We all know that the situation is tense, and always have whether or not its overt or covert.

My point is that the blame has to be cast on both sides. Since childhood, I've read in books and saw on television the multitudes leaving the shores of Haiti often losing their lives on the high seas. The DR and Haiti share the same land mass which only a few other countries do. They're inextricably linked like Siamese twins. It's humanly impossible to separate the two and obviously regrettable decisions and actions would naturally occur every so often.

I am an advocate for dialogue as a last resort. I support the establishment of a more equitable trade agreement which could possibly reduce the number of migrants and also develop their economy somewhat.

Criticizing Dominicans for possibly being hypocrites is counterproductive because the flow is still by choice, or encouraged, on the Haitian side. Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue...

 

[bronzeallspice]

My contention isn't that the DR isn't culpable; I've said that they have needs which are eagerly filled by Haitians seeking to improve their living standards. However, I believe like you, that this vulnerable population needs to be protected.

I don't agree with Gwozozo who blames the DR as "their" problem because they provide these basic humanitarian needs. It's ironic that they are accused of all these ills but also in the same realm, provide badly needed services. We all know that the situation is tense, and always have whether or not its overt or covert.

My point is that the blame has to be cast on both sides. Since childhood, I've read in books and saw on television the multitudes leaving the shores of Haiti often losing their lives on the high seas. The DR and Haiti share the same land mass which only a few other countries do. They're inextricably linked like Siamese twins. It's humanly impossible to separate the two and obviously regrettable decisions and actions would naturally occur every so often.

I am an advocate for dialogue as a last resort. I support the establishment of a more equitable trade agreement which could possibly reduce the number of migrants and also develop their economy somewhat.

Criticizing Dominicans for possibly being hypocrites is counterproductive because the flow is still by choice, or encouraged, on the Haitian side. Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue...

I agree. Haitian leaders need to fix the problem on their end to encourage Haitians to go back home.

 

[Riva_31]

I invite you to search on google about some countries constitutions, for example Spain, where if you are inmigrant and has a babe there your babe acquire the nationality of his parents, no matter if is Legal or Ilegal, so what is the problem now if we are trying to fix the problem, I dont think they will deport all those people, im sure will give a legal status but not like dominicans. The constitution from 1966 stated that are not dominicans if you are in transit (at that moment transit was included all that was not legal).

Some people talk in others post that we are making an (apartaid) and that we hate haitians, if we really hate them for sure no one haitian will be in the streets walking with totally freedom on Dominican streets, going to School, and Hospitals for Free, including in the border where from each 10 babes delivery 9 are from haitian mothers that cross ther border to have their babes.

 

[bob saunders]

I invite you to search on google about some countries constitutions, for example Spain, where if you are inmigrant and has a babe there your babe acquire the nationality of his parents, no matter if is Legal or Ilegal, so what is the problem now if we are trying to fix the problem, I dont think they will deport all those people, im sure will give a legal status but not like dominicans. The constitution from 1966 stated that are not dominicans if you are in transit (at that moment transit was included all that was not legal).

Some people talk in others post that we are making an (apartaid) and that we hate haitians, if we really hate them for sure no one haitian will be in the streets walking with totally freedom on Dominican streets, going to School, and Hospitals for Free, including in the border where from each 10 babes delivery 9 are from haitian mothers that cross ther border to have their babes.

I know a number of children born in Spain to Dominican women. The children are Spanish citizens.

 

[Riva_31]

I know a number of children born in Spain to Dominican women. The children are Spanish citizens.

Are Citizens of Spain because one of the parents is from Spain, but if both parents are Dominican are not Citizens of Spain, its stated in their constitution that you can find it in Google.

I want to share this articule from El Nacional.


The ruling 168/13 TC has raised a dust of opinions crusades. Clerics , politicians, journalists and lawyers have ventured to speak , ignoring many of the courts that is not reduced to the mere application of law verbatim what has .

Life is movement , incessant flow of changes, so that no provision can anticipate all the circumstances , particularly the future , that the legislature intended to regulate . Hence, Jose Luis Castillo Alva, Peruvian essayist , ensure that "even the legal rules have a clear sense require interpretation " .

The old art. 11 of the Constitution stated that except for the children of foreign diplomats and bystanders who were born in our territory were Dominican . The literal interpretation would lead to believe that the illegal benefit of jus soli.

It turns out , however , that the meaning of the rule must be set according to the will of the legislator , subjecting it to a dynamic and flexible interpretation to accommodate the social and economic transformations .

The historical context of 48 years ago was very different from 2010 , a reality that invites debate teleological system , dominant interpretive method that juts into the regulatory purpose of the legislature.
If it is prohibited to enter the cinema with dogs , it is unnecessary for the law list all land animals to know that neither could entered with horses or goats. Equally , the lack of specificity of the constituent to consecrate the jus soli, did not prevent deduce that its purpose was just book them our nationality to the children of legal residents.

If denied this right to the children of legal passers fortiori to those who exceed deviniesen in illegal residence time given by the authorities, or by illegally entering the country . After all , the most elementary logic allows to deduce the impossibility of an unlawful behave a legality .

El jus soli - El Nacional