Proof that Trujillo didn't kill the Mirabal sisters?

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

There is a curious twist to the story in the interview. I need to check into it...

 

[mofongoloco]

good thread.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

https://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php/69335-Who-Really-Kill-Trujillo/page6

This is an interesting thread that somehow has avoided being deleted--unlike many of the Trujillo threads.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

From a book review of The Death of the Goat

Anyone wanting to understand Latin America or the Kennedy Administration's approach to Latin America, Castro and the Alliance for Progress must read this book.

I served as an American diplomat in Santo Domingo 20 years after the assassination. There I met several people intimately familiar with events leading up to the assassination and afterwards. Donald Reid Cabral, who was involved in planning for a civilian, elected government (but was not a shooter), told me that "everything in the book is true, but not everything that is true is in the book. We talked to Diederich, but we had to protect our friends."

This book is valuable far beyond the immediate facts of Trujillo's death. Explicit or implicit in all this is how the New Frontiersmen's "can do" attitude, infatuation with covert operations drove events they hardly understood. The book reminds us that people everywhere operate on what they see as their own requirements and not our calendar. After the Bay of Pigs led to a rethinking of this covert action program, a CIA officer told the assassins to postpone things while Washington was cogitating. The assassins made it clear that they were not killing Trujillo for our reasons, but for their own. They wanted U.S. help, but would not allow it to make them into puppets.

All of which leads me to speculate on alternate outcomes. Had the assassins received the automatic weapons we had promised them, the assassination might have gone more "cleanly" and scores of lives might have been saved.

-Don R. Hamilton

Like I have been saying for the last 15 years, the CIA was not behind Trujillo's assassination.

Remember this: Imbert was not a central member in the plot to kill Trujillo. He was a late comer who was only a peripheral figure. He was propelled forward by the fact he managed to survive. I sincerely believe that if the key leaders of the plot (General Juan Tomas Diaz and Antonio de la Maza) had survived, General Imbert would most likely have faded away quickly and others would have played key roles in Dominican history.

I do not think General Imbert was a bad person. But let's pretend he was a cold blooded person, it would not have changed the nature of Trujillo or his regime. I don't know why a supposed threat against someone who refused to drive the assassins somewhere (and perhaps instead had run off to inform the SIM) makes him worse than Trujillo. I have more to say about this episode, but later.

 

[NALs]

Mario Vargas Llosa, the author of «La fiesta del chivo» (The Feast of the Goat), in the interval of 2:38 and 3:00 minutes clearly says that his book is a novel, not a disguised history book. He claims that he wrote a novel that has more invention than reality. He goes even further by saying that he developed the characters and the events with the full liberty that is proper of a fictional story.

[video=youtube;7QbGquwza28]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QbGquwza28[/video]

You know, you have always been a Trujillista, but you were always a Trujillista in spite of Trujillo's brutality. Now you are trying to rewrite history completely. It won't work. It won't.

I highly suggest for you to stop projecting. I perfectly understand that when people run out of arguments their personal pride leads them to use labels and ad hominems, but you should control your impulses.

Hopefully you will not come up with nonsensical labels in an attempt to contradict what the author himself said about the veracity of his book. You can believe as many reviewers of the book that say what you want to believe, but I will side with the author himself.

 

[Naked_Snake]

Where is the trail of atrocities by General Imbert? He carefully and purposefully avoided executing rebels in the 1940s during a failed invasion of the country when he was governor of Puerto Plata. Trujillo was enraged by Imbert's political maneuvers and fired him. I don't see any trail of torture and murder behind Imbert Barreras.

.

Perhaps not during the Trujillo era (and I am skeptical of this given how he was on the inner circle), but he has quite an extensive trail of bodies from his stint as the head of the rival pro-coup government during the 1965 civil war. If you doubt this, look for the details of the Operación Limpieza he ordered to be carried out on the northern parts of the Distrito Nacional.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Mario Vargas Llosa, the author of «La fiesta del chivo» (The Feast of the Goat), in the interval of 2:38 and 3:00 minutes clearly says that his book is a novel, not a disguised history book. He claims that he wrote a novel that has more invention than reality. He goes even further by saying that he developed the characters and the events with the full liberty that is proper of a fictional story.

[video=youtube;7QbGquwza28]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QbGquwza28[/video]


I highly suggest for you to stop projecting. I perfectly understand that when people run out of arguments their personal pride leads them to use labels and ad hominems, but you should control your impulses.

Hopefully you will not come up with nonsensical labels in an attempt to contradict what the author himself said about the veracity of his book. You can believe as many reviewers of the book that say what you want to believe, but I will side with the author himself.

What? The book review refereed to the history book The death of the goat [Bernard Diederich]. Did you even bother to read my post?:tired:

From a book review of The Death of the Goat

I served as an American diplomat in Santo Domingo 20 years after the assassination. There I met several people intimately familiar with events leading up to the assassination and afterwards. Donald Reid Cabral, who was involved in planning for a civilian, elected government (but was not a shooter), told me that "everything in the book is true, but not everything that is true is in the book. We talked to Diederich, but we had to protect our friends."

Are for the novel, I have never said it was a reliable source of history. I don't know why you even bring it up. Oh, wait. You didn't even bother to read my post. You flew off the handle and went on a crazy rant about a novel that I never even mentioned. Really NALS, I wrote about the novel being inaccurate over a decade ago. None of what you wrote has anything to do with my post. You didn't read it.

I asked the actual people involved in the plot what they thought of the book and they all disliked it to various degrees--As I wrote on this board back in 2006-2007.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Perhaps not during the Trujillo era (and I am skeptical of this given how he was on the inner circle), but he has quite an extensive trail of bodies from his stint as the head of the rival pro-coup government during the 1965 civil war. If you doubt this, look for the details of the Operación Limpieza he ordered to be carried out on the northern parts of the Distrito Nacional.

I talked with some of the people involved in the civil war (I know this is a highly emotional and highly romanticized episode), but I didn't talk about the 1965 episode with Imbert; I wasn't that interested in it. I only interviewed him about Trujillo. I have studied the civil war, but since I didn't ask General Imbert about it, I really can't add anything about beyond what has been written.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Perhaps not during the Trujillo era (and I am skeptical of this given how he was on the inner circle)

He was a relatively young man when the 1940s events took place. He was on the outs with Trujillo after that. He held posts in road construction (and from memory) the national lottery. His brother, Major Segundo Imbert, had a notorious reputation, not Antonio Imbert Barrera.

I would not describe Antonio Imbert Barrera as being part of Trujillo's 'inner circle'. The family was extremely important in Dominican society, so Trujillo did interact with them; like he did with all of the prominent families of the country, but I wouldn't say Antonio Imbert was one of Trujillo's men. Not at all. Antonio was too prominent to ignore (or be ignored by) Trujillo. Remember, Trujillo attempted to force the elites into his system. You had to play along or you would be impoverished, imprisoned or possibly killed.

Antonio Cosme Imbert Barrera's brother is a different story. After falling out with Trujillo, fleeing into exile, and then being tricked into returning, Segundo found himself in prison facing a long sentence after being convicted of a murder that took place in a prison where he had been the warden. This complicated story is also in the history books.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

All of this is covered in the book The Death of the Goat by Bernard Diederich. It's a good book. I highly recommend it.

 

[NALs]

Anyone interested and that can’t read Spanish can copy the following quotes (or the entire article in the link) and paste them in any of the translators online.

This article was published on or a few days after Imbert Barreras death.

Doña Casilda Guzmán de Reyes (Doña Ca), enterada al día siguiente de la muerte del magnicida, recordó la muerte, en 1943, de su hermano de crianza Domingo Marión, vilmente asesinado por el hermano del occiso, el mayor Segundo Imbert Barrera, en un entramado de novela de suspenso.

Doña Ca acusó de cómplice el fenecido general Imbert Barrera, quien, siendo gobernador provincial, encubrió aquel hecho de sangre que consternó, hace 73 años, a la población de Puerto Plata, planificado por su hermano, alto oficial en la comandancia del Ejército Nacional en la ciudad norteña de República Dominicana.

...

Los hermanos Antonio y Segundo Imbert Barrera fueron favorecidos por “el Jefe”, como lo fueron los demás magnicidas y habían participado secretamente en varias tramas contra el hombre fuerte del país.



Con lágrimas resbalando visiblemente por detrás de sus anteojos, a Doña Ca se le hacía casi imposible empezar a contar estas memorias históricas, que sólo de su boca habrán de salir como testimonio contra los hoy llamados “Héroes del 30 de Mayo”, que fueron, según la señora, en el caso de Segundo Imbert, “un asesino brutal”, y, en lo que respecta a su hermano Antonio, “cómplice del crimen cometido contra mi hermano y de otras aventuras canallas, olvidada por la memoria colectiva de los dominicanos”.

...

Al preguntársele si acusaba al fenecido general Antonio Imbert Barrera como cómplice de esa muerte, respondió: “Sí, lo acuso, porque él sabía lo que se estaba moviendo. Sabía que esas cajas llegarían. Antonio encubrió a su hermano para que el crimen contra mi hermano quedara impune”.

...

“¿De qué héroes me hablan? ¿De un asesino y de un cómplice que evadieron el peso de la ley inventando una historia de infidelidad matrimonial para no ser agarrados con la mano en la masa? Recibieron favores de Trujillo y lo traicionaron, como todos los otros ‘Héroes del 30 de Mayo’. Mi hermano pagó con su sangre inocente sin estar metido en el complot”, concluyó en su residencia de Canadá.

https://almomento.net/acusan-hermanos-imbert-barreras-crimen-en-puerto-plata-en-1943/

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

0_0 The Campaign Strategy?

The only post on the message board is quite telling:

He aqui la verdad de esos supuestos "Heroes", no eran heroes nada. Actuaron en contra del pais en su peor momento. Trujillo fue el MEJOR gobernante Dominicano. Voten Ramfis.

So this is the strategy? Rehabilitate El Jefe by throwing dirt all over his (now dead--mostly long dead) opponents? She waited 70 years to level this accusation? She waited till General Imbert was dead and couldn't defend himself? Really?

Question: Did the same person who filed this interview also drive the son of Jesus Galindez to the TV studio so that he could praise Ramfis? :tired:

Is this what the Dominican electorate can expect in a new Trujillo administration?

Ramfis will not be a new El Jefe. He will be a new Papa Doc.

Anyone but Ramfis in 2020.

 

[jenmar237]

Here it is anyway: A group of Dominicans decided they could no longer tolerate Trujillo's brutality and they took an incredible risk and moved against El Jefe. Trujillo was killed, and most of the people in the plot were hunted down and killed by Trujillo's sons. Many of them were tortured horrifically before they died. Most of the plotters sacrificed their lives for their countrymen. The End.

Correction: A group of commie Dominicans influenced by Fidel Castro decided that they could no longer tolerate Trujillo's law and order, and, as a result of their actions against El Jefe, were hunted down and killed by Trujillo's men and Dominican campesinos loyal to El Jefe.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

You must be trolling...

Correction: A group of commie Dominicans influenced by Fidel Castro decided that they could no longer tolerate Trujillo's law and order, and, as a result of their actions against El Jefe, were hunted down and killed by Trujillo's men and Dominican campesinos loyal to El Jefe.

You obviously have never studied Trujillo's assassination. What you just posted was moronic. None of the people involved in assassinating Trujillo were communists. Trujillo's assassins came from the right. General Juan Tomas Diaz's--the coup instigator--brother stated at a secret meeting that it was important that non-communists killed El Jefe. The moral high ground could not be lost to the communists. You would know that if you cracked a book sometime. But I won't hold my breathe.

 

[jenmar237]

You obviously have never studied Trujillo's assassination. What you just posted was moronic. None of the people involved in assassinating Trujillo were communists. Trujillo's assassins came from the right. General Juan Tomas Diaz's--the coup instigator--brother stated at a secret meeting that it was important that non-communists killed El Jefe. The moral high ground could not be lost to the communists. You would know that if you cracked a book sometime. But I won't hold my breathe.

Those that participated in the 14 de Junio movement, were in fact, communists, or I'll be nice and say that they at the very least had those inclinations, especially Manolo Tavarez Justo and self-declared Marxist-Leninist, Juan Bosch, among others. These men all trained in Cuba under the auspices of Fidel Castro...last time I checked, a communist.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

The people you mentioned had nothing to do with Trujillo's assassination. You are clueless.

 

[pkaide1]

The people you mentioned had nothing to do with Trujillo's assassination. You are clueless.

He is referencing to a whole different attempt that took place before the suceessful one backed up by Fidel Castro. Trujillo and Castro hated each other. Trujillo killed every single men after entering Dominican territory. He knew about the attempt thanks to his spies in cuba.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

He is referencing to a whole different attempt that took place before the suceessful one backed up by Fidel Castro. Trujillo and Castro hated each other. Trujillo killed every single men after entering Dominican territory. He knew about the attempt thanks to his spies in cuba.

No he wasn't. He was referring to the plot led by General Juan Tomas Diaz and Antonio de la Maza.

Quote Originally Posted by Ogre of the Caribbean View Post
Here it is anyway: A group of Dominicans decided they could no longer tolerate Trujillo's brutality and they took an incredible risk and moved against El Jefe. Trujillo was killed, and most of the people in the plot were hunted down and killed by Trujillo's sons. Many of them were tortured horrifically before they died. Most of the plotters sacrificed their lives for their countrymen. The End.

Correction: A group of commie Dominicans influenced by Fidel Castro decided that they could no longer tolerate Trujillo's law and order, and, as a result of their actions against El Jefe, were hunted down and killed by Trujillo's men and Dominican campesinos loyal to El Jefe.

 

[pkaide1]

No he wasn't. He was referring to the plot led by General Juan Tomas Diaz and Antonio de la Maza.

Feud With Castro
In the decades to come, Trujillo ruled the country with an iron fist, taking over for his personal gain such industries as oil refining, cement manufacturing, and food production, pocketing large amounts of cash for years to come.

In 1956, Castro was planning a revolt in Cuba whose goal was the removal of the dictator Fulgencio Batista. Secretly, Trujillo offered Batista military supplies to stop Castro but there was never any lasting relationship between the two dictators. Trujillo referred to Batista as “that ****ty sergeant,” and said, “I’m going to oust the bastard.” But Trujillo had no love for Castro either. Trujillo sent arms and ammunition to anti-Castro dissidents then living the Miami area. On New Year’s Eve 1959, Castro and his band of revolutionaries ousted the hated Batista, and Castro proclaimed himself the leader of Cuba.

On June 14, 1959, an abortive invasion to topple Trujillo began. On that day, a plane with Dominican markings left Cuba and landed at the Cordillera Central in the Dominican Republic. On board were 225 men led by a Dominican named Enrique Jimenez Moya and a Cuban named Delico Gomez Ochoa, both of whom were friends of Castro. The invasion force was composed of men from various Latin American countries and Spain. Some Americans also participated. As soon as the invaders landed, they were met by soldiers of the Dominican Army, and 30 to 40 men escaped.

A week later, another group of invaders boarded two yachts and was escorted by Cuban gunboats to Great Inagua, in the Bahamas, heading for the Dominican coast. Instead, the group was spotted by Dominican soldiers who blasted the yacht to pieces. Trujillo ordered his son, Ramfis, to lead the hunt for the invaders, and soon they were captured. The leaders of the invasion were taken aboard a Dominican Air Force plane and then pushed out in midair, falling to their deaths.

The plot was, in reality, tactically directed by many opposition leaders inside the country. Trujillo blamed Castro for the plot, and secretly Castro was behind the entire affair. In time, Trujillo set up a plan to invade Cuba (which never took place) and had his followers loot the Cuban embassy in the capital city of Ciudad Trujillo. Cuba subsequently severed all diplomatic relations with the Dominican Republic.

 

[Ogre of the Caribbean]

Feud With Castro
In the decades to come, Trujillo ruled the country with an iron fist, taking over for his personal gain such industries as oil refining, cement manufacturing, and food production, pocketing large amounts of cash for years to come.

In 1956, Castro was planning a revolt in Cuba whose goal was the removal of the dictator Fulgencio Batista. Secretly, Trujillo offered Batista military supplies to stop Castro but there was never any lasting relationship between the two dictators. Trujillo referred to Batista as “that ****ty sergeant,” and said, “I’m going to oust the bastard.” But Trujillo had no love for Castro either. Trujillo sent arms and ammunition to anti-Castro dissidents then living the Miami area. On New Year’s Eve 1959, Castro and his band of revolutionaries ousted the hated Batista, and Castro proclaimed himself the leader of Cuba.

On June 14, 1959, an abortive invasion to topple Trujillo began. On that day, a plane with Dominican markings left Cuba and landed at the Cordillera Central in the Dominican Republic. On board were 225 men led by a Dominican named Enrique Jimenez Moya and a Cuban named Delico Gomez Ochoa, both of whom were friends of Castro. The invasion force was composed of men from various Latin American countries and Spain. Some Americans also participated. As soon as the invaders landed, they were met by soldiers of the Dominican Army, and 30 to 40 men escaped.

A week later, another group of invaders boarded two yachts and was escorted by Cuban gunboats to Great Inagua, in the Bahamas, heading for the Dominican coast. Instead, the group was spotted by Dominican soldiers who blasted the yacht to pieces. Trujillo ordered his son, Ramfis, to lead the hunt for the invaders, and soon they were captured. The leaders of the invasion were taken aboard a Dominican Air Force plane and then pushed out in midair, falling to their deaths.

The plot was, in reality, tactically directed by many opposition leaders inside the country. Trujillo blamed Castro for the plot, and secretly Castro was behind the entire affair. In time, Trujillo set up a plan to invade Cuba (which never took place) and had his followers loot the Cuban embassy in the capital city of Ciudad Trujillo. Cuba subsequently severed all diplomatic relations with the Dominican Republic.

So you cut and paste something (probably from Wikpedia). Great.

We've been talking about the assassination of Trujillo, and you are going on about something else entirely different. And your point is? What, you have no point.

1959-Exiles backed by Fidel attempted to invade and overthrow Trujillo.

1961--Dominican elites assassinate Trujillo.