Dominicans: Are they pathologically inconsiderate?

[Rocky]

Have you guys been noticing how many views this thread has?
Almost 5,000.
Goes to show, that although some folks didn't like the title, it sure did attract attention.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Ahhhhhhhhh from the other corner of the world.

Miguel I as have Rocky and a lot of other people stated that the Dominicans hold no monopoly on what you are referring to. I think a lot of people, to include myself, have stated that the rule you are referring to DOES NOT pertain to ALL Dominicans. I don?t know how clearer I can be with that explanation. That ?child like? rule is only to be used to give an explanation as to why some things are done as they are regardless as to which country we are referring to. It helps in understanding the reason for certain action and it speaks volumes in its accuracy and reasoning.

It helps me tremendously in my understanding and acceptance of such actions and therefore makes my life so much easier regardless as to which country I may be in. I would hope that with you living there in the US that you too may have a better understanding when you are confronted with a typical action as is being discussed. If you fail to understand and continue to get upset at what you witness then the only thing left to do is get ulcers and or come to DR1 and rant and rave or move out of country.

Rick

 

[NALs]

... What it doesn't address though, is that the people many have identified as considerate are the ones with perhaps least exposure to formal education and public campaigns - the campesinos. The urban oiks in jeepetas and in cinemas have been exposed to all this, so what's their excuse?

We've all (campesino, urban, northern, southern) been exposed to hundreds of years of the same basic moral Judeao-Christian values that are supposed to define the way we treat each other, so it's not as if the idea of being considerate (copyright: the Bible) hasn't travelled this far south!

Well Chiri, the fact that a city is a city and a campo is a campo has plenty to do with that. A typical Dominican city has a population density that is much higher than any given campo, thus the amount of garbage produced in an urban setting is going to be greater than in the campo. Every single callejon in the DR has garbage, it may not be piles (although you will see many with piles of garbage), but garbage is garbage. A one kilometer stretch of callejon in a rural campo will not have as many people either passing through or living near as a similar kilometer of road crossing through a overcrowded urban barrio. Surprise surprise, more garbage accumulates in places where more people travel through.

Also, while all of you are grinding your axe at jeepeta drivers, how many campesinos own a car or jeepeta? I'm pretty sure its much less than urban people owning such. Let me go even further, are jeepeta owners only new rich? Don't new riches also buy cars? Don't old money also buy jeepetas? How can you tell who is driving what? And, most importantly, how do you come to the conclusion that jeepeta owners must be new money and their "insecurity" explains their erratic driving habits?

Have you not seen the many cacharras which don't exactly follow the rules of the road, cacharras driven by dirt poor people? Why not talk about them?

Why this focus on jeepeta drivers when in fact S.U.V.s are driven by all types of people!

Could it be that the bigger the car the more the likelyhood that a person will use their vehicle size to gain the right of way in any situation on the road? I see it plenty of times with trailers in Connecticut, they cut in front of you because they know they can, that's why they do it. It has nothing to do with theri socio-economic level, status, or whatever and everything to do with the size of their vehicle, the driver being conscious of the size of their vehicle and what that means when they try to take the right of way in any situation. Similarly how Caribe Tour buses swerve from one lane to another with no regards for others on the road or American trailers turning unto the left express lanes in the interstates in order to pass by you, even though its illegal for trailers to be on such lane or for any vehicle to pass you on your right side if a lane is on your right!

The size of the vehicle matters and that's that.

Regarding your last paragraph, if you are in fact a Christian or grew up in a Christian home or have a remote idea of Christianity and how its followers live their lives; you would know that most Christians act in very unchristian ways Monday to Friday, they repent from their sins on Saturday, and they act holy during mass on Sunday all to start the cycle all over again on Monday. Some even go to church for the sole sake of criticizing others who are attending such mass while not put attention to the sermon.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about this, I'm a Roman Catholic. I came from a Catholic home, my entire family is Catholic,and I will perhaps die a Catholic and even though I may go through moments when I am more religious than in other moments, what I described on the above paragraph is something that I have witnessed plenty of times.

People do what they want, unless there is some sort of enforcement in place to force people into following the rules and laws.

Campesinos are not entirely absorbed into the capitalist economy and as such, they are not drenched in ego-enhancing messages which are essential for capitalism to function. In the cities, its a different story and without enforcers, people will do what they wish! If people are subjected to ego-centric behavior or attention, then they will act accordingly.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

Nals, are you aware how imperialistic that sounds, in an inverted sort of way? :cheeky: If a gringo had written that we would be rightly squashed by many of our Dominican colleagues here. It's one step away from 'they don't know any better, poor dears'. YUCK!

And no, I wouldn't claim to be inately more considerate. I'm probably equally considerate with different mediums of expressing it.

We know what it is with the nouveau riche, it's the insecurity factor. It takes a few generations to adjust. The 'old money' people here are as charming, genteel and considerate as anywhere else in the world, more so in my experience. So, on balance, if we have considerate campesino people and considerate old money people it's just those in the middle causing some people a few inconveniences. Sound like the size of it?

Regarding your first paragraph, it's a good thing that I am not a gringo! :surprised In anycase, it's pretty much what many of you are saying here about "X people not knowing any better".

Why do you think some DR1ers need to look at most Dominicans as "children in adult's body" for? If it's not to use the "they don't know any better" excuse, then please enlighten me...

Regarding everything else, I'll repeat myself once again:

"You guys try to not litter, obey driving laws, etc because your governments in your original home country forced such behavior patterns down your throats!

Perhaps your parents did taught you those manner or perhaps it was taught at the schools you attended, etc. But, it remains crystal clear that the governments from countries many DR1ers are either native of or know well must have gone through a time period when most of your people were incosiderate driving knuckleheads!

This is not a chicken vs. egg dilemma, it's obvious that the law came before the prevailing action from the part of the masses."

You mention campesinos. Guess what? For a good number of them are not modern so don't expect for them to act in ego-centric ways if they have not been subjected to the full fledge capitalistic system that is prevailant in the cities.

Also, you mention old money. They are losing their fortunes faster than anything else. Of course they are going to tame down, who wouldn't in such circumstances. Most old money families don't have the fortune many new riches have, so consequently they won't be able to either live the lifestyle many new riches live and they will resent the attitude many new riches take. New riches are attracting all the attention and they are re-defining what it means to be rich in the DR. Old money families are being shoved aside from their previous paternalistic role in the country with only the prestige in their last names giving them a higher privilege over most people. Should it be a surprise to anyone that many old money families are developing a distaste for the families who are taking their place? How do you think their ancestors who were once new money acted? I'll bet, not much different from the new money of today.

-NALs

 

[NALs]

I don't see anyone here subtly insinuating that they are innately nicer, different people and cultures just have different ideas of what is nice and polite and what matters with niceness and politeness. For example, if I walk into a room or restaurant in Toronto, I do not greet everyone in the restaurant, for me, that would be weird, but in the DR (as I read in some forum) it is normal to do so and polite at that. Maybe to a Dominican person who saw me walk into a room/place and not greet anyone would think I was rude, however, that does not make me a rude person, just a person who has different ideas about what is polite.

As well, I have also read on here that a Dominican may think that I was rude if I refused food or drink at their home, whereas in Toronto, I do that ALL THE TIME. That does not classify me as a rude person, just different.

Ok, if that is the case, then why would threads like this one be created?

If everyone agrees that its simply a matter of different people seeing things differently, why are there people still creating threads and asking questions like the one's on this thread? Why is the title of the thread "Dominicans: Are they pathologically inconsiderate?" rather than "Why are Dominicans so different from us" or perhaps "Why have I finally realized that the DR is indeed a different country with different people and customs to that of my own" ?????

I'll tell you the answer, because what you have stated is not true. There is an underlying tone here of "where I come from things are better" or "my people are better than Dominicans" or "Dominicans are not as civilized as us" which is evident from the title of the thread to some of the post some DR1ers have created here! If it would have been otherwise, things (including the title) would have been written in a different manner, no?

Perhaps, that's how you see things and that is the correct way of seeing the diverse world we live in. But, everyone here doesn't see the world in such way and this thread proves that. Simply re-read as many posts on this thread as you possibly can and everytime you see the word 'Dominican', simply replace it with the nationality you belong to or the people you look up to the most. Only then will you begin to grasp my point here.

As well, people not throwing litter may be an example of government's telling you that it is wrong or rude to do so, but it is also your parents on their own. For instance, I was born and raised in Canada and my parents taught me that it was wrong to litter, BUT my parents did not have these rules shoved down their throats since my parents are not Canadian, but from the island of Trinidad&Tobago, and I could be mistaken, but at the time that they were living there, I don't think there were large campaigns or fines about keeping the environment clean, it's just the way they were raised in their own homes.

But your parents did moved to Canada, otherwise how would you be born in Canada? At least your mother lived in Canada, that I'm sure and as a consequence, she was subjected to Canadian way of living.

People mimic what they see, she saw clean Canadian cities (which, btw, tend to be much cleaner and better kept than American cities on average), she probably noticed that the authorities were willing to enforce some minor laws such as litter laws and such and she saw the benefit of everyone not littering. It should be no surprise that at least she would come to the belief that littering is not only inconsiderate, but also morally wrong and at least, she passed that down to you.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but if at least your mother would have never left T&T and you would have been born there. Let's assume there was no "Clean T&T campaigns" and the authorities were not enforcing any anti-littering laws. What were the chances that your parents would put the value of not littering as high as claiming it to be immoral?

Even lower chances would be an entire society with no anti-littering enforcement from the part of the government that would put value on not littering!

That's why the cleanest countries are the countries with the strictes enforcement from the part of the authorities!

And yes, you can go into any countryside setting in the world and due to the mere fact that it's a country setting (ie. less people, less garbage oriented lifestyle, less modern, etc) there will be less litter, if any at all. But, that is more due to the lifestyle of re-using scarce materials, only a few people throwing garbage, etc. Because go to any campo in the DR, you will see litter. It may not be a pile, but litter is litter.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Yikes, Nals. I can tell you're upset. Maybe I should stress that I would be making observations of this kind no matter where I lived - whether I was back home, or in Vladivostock or Tierra del Fuego. Foreigners living in England spend a lot of time discussing all the weird and maddening habits of the natives there. Ask dv8

On the question of jeepetas and other expensive vehicles - they are singled out because they are owned by people who in theory should know better and don't really have the excuse of no education, unlike the guagua, taxi and moto drivers who like their counterparts in every country in the world, are well-known for their aggressive driving.

When I referred to the Judaeo-Christian tradition, I was no way speaking about religious practice. I meant the basic moral code that shapes western culture - simple concepts like "love thy neighbour" that guide the way people behave. I am one of the least religious people you are ever likely to meet, but I can't deny that my morals and values were shaped by the general Judaeo-Christian tradition we are all exposed to.

 

[bob saunders]

When I was a little fellow about 45 years ago, before any litter program, my granny always told us " cleanliness is next to godliness " meaning: be clean about your body, mind, house, street, yard...etc. Perhaps this was to do with her Scandinavian upbringing but the point I trying to make is that enforcement of certain habits good or bad are from the family not from the government. The poor people that I grew up around, for the most part had pride in their house, yard, garden, horse, dog, kids...etc. There were trailer trash around that didn't have respect for themselves or their surroundings. The average Dominican house is very clean and so is the average Dominican person, so why do they treat the evironment that isn't their immediate property different. This isn't just Dominicans that are this way, but it is a question that I don't have an answer to.

 

[Chris]

IMHO if people are not educated in basic sanitation, they will not know why it is important to manage trash, not litter and keep clean. If people are not educated in basic rules of the road, they will not understand that their behavior affects all the other road users. I learnt basic sanitation in the home, where there was no law to 'get me' or to enforce the 'regulations'. To play on the Judeo- Christian tradition, cleanliness was next to godliness. The parents gave me a break on the godliness stuff, but I sure got a quick negative response if there was anything wrong with the cleanliness.

So Nals, on the cleanliness issue, I don't agree with you. This stuff is learnt in the home and is a result of ongoing and continuing education.

Where I do agree with you, is that personally, I did not like the topic of the thread and I did not like the 'Dominicans are kids', characterization/ generalization. But, people are different. And it is those differences that make it interesting.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Nal?s said ?she saw the benefit of everyone not littering. It should be no surprise that at least she would come to the belief that littering is not only inconsiderate, but also morally wrong and at least, she passed that down to you.?

Hal?s the above statement requires me to ask 3 questions of you. Is it your belief that not littering is a benefit to everyone (society)? Is it your belief that littering is an inconsiderate action? Is it your belief that littering is morally wrong? I only ask these questions because you don?t explain sufficiently well enough to ascertain your feeling on this subject and I consider that as important in the discussions on this thread. Once I learn your position on the matter of ?littering? then I am enabled to respond further to your meanderinds.

Rick

 

[Rocky]

Y'all are better people than me.

Three of you responded to Nals long winded posts.
I have to admit, I never read anything that long.
I commend you three for having the patience to do so.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Long post, sorry.

Nal's I got tired of waiting for your reply and as in reality it isn't important............

Like a lot of members on this board I was taught about littering as far back as I can remember which is about to the age of three. I was not taught that if I littered the police would lock me up but rather that it was unsanitary. Of course I was too young to understand unsanitary but it was what I was taught. It was a little later in life, elementary school, that I learned the principles of sanitation and how it affects society. In my learning about litter it wasn?t the fact that it is unsightly that was emphasized but rather how litter has a tendency to establish a habitat for things like rodents, insects, germs and such and how those things have a tendency to bring discomfort and disease to humans and therefore the reason not to partake in helping to produce these habitats. This is the reason I don?t litter today and has nothing to do with the police issuing fines for such. Here in the DR the police virtually never enforce the litter laws on the books so if my desire was to flaunt the police I would litter here but needless to say I don?t litter here as I didn?t in the other 6 countries I?ve lived in.

All of which brings us right back to that subject of customs and culture that a person has been taught. You know, those things that have been passed down from generation to generation.

This now brings up a very important question as I see it. If a person should partake in an action that is detrimental to your health as a human being such as throwing litter and therefore helping the survival of such things as rabid dogs, diseased rats and flies, driving erratically, not covering their mouth when they sneeze or cough in close proximity to you, cleaning their nose with their hand just before offering that hand to you in greeting, playing music at a decibel level that is proven to be harmful to human hearing and a host of other things what should you do? Should you just say, ?ah what the hell it?s their country and culture?? Remember that these things that are detrimental to your health are also detrimental to the health of them and their relatives too.

Bob, in answer to your question that you asked, ?so why do they treat the evironment that isn't their immediate property different? was answered in the first sentence of the post by Chris. In a country that only offers its children maybe 8 hours of schooling a week of which at least 1 of those hours must be devoted to religion and 1 ? to recess doesn?t leave much time to learn that which should be taught. If the parents have never been taught it then their ability to teach their children is also handicapped (passed on from generation to generation?).

In the vast amounts of conversations that I?ve had with a tremendous amount of Dominicans in the last 10 years I?ve always directed the conversations to health so that I can ascertain their knowledge on the subject. It has been my experience that the majority of them, much more than 50%, have no idea what a cold, gripe, is or how it is passed on from person to person. The fact as to what a virus is hasn?t been established here as it has been in a lot of other countries and the idea that antibiotics is the desired treatment for gripe here is also a well established remedy. As gripe is so relevant here, as it is in all countries, and as it is the major cause of children missing school here, as it is in all countries, and as the children aren?t taught the importance of covering their mouth when they sneeze or cough what are the chances these children will suffer more from missing school for 3 to 5 days versus a child from a country with a better established education system?

There were many reasons I decided to move to this country and my health and well being was one of them. Because of my desire to be healthy and my family also should I in fact try to teach other people those things that are important to better health in the hopes that they may learn and therefore help themselves and me (us)? Or should I just ignore those things that are detrimental to (our) health and well being?

What are your responsibilities to society as a whole? Do you have any?

Rick

 

[KeithF]

Wow... skip this thread for a couple of days and it takes 2 hours to get through it!

Phew, ain't that the truth? And now I'm first to post after Rick's impressive post... follow that!

I might wait a while...

Do All Americans believe George Bush is a Good President?*...

Do any of them?

Driving?

Driving in DR scares the S*** out of me. The first time we went there, nine years ago, I'd never been out of Europe. The coach ride from airport to the [AI obviously] hotel scared the S*** out of me. Another coach overtook us on a blind right hand bend. Our driver [naturally] accelerated to stop him getting past easily... Ohhhh F***!!! Next time we went on a DR coach later the same week, I said to my (then girlfriend) "we'll sit near the front of the coach so we can see what is happening and brace ourselves". THAT WAS WORSE! We saw EVERYTHING and that really scared the S*** out of us!

The next coach trip, the following week my (by then) wife and I sat right at the back, next to the emergency exit.

DR roads still scare the S*** out of me, despite four trips there last year (and another next week). When I was in Vietnam, I spoke to a Vietnamese guy about the standard of driving there. He said "you must remember, twenty-five years ago, no one drove anything more powerful than a buffalo". How many cars were on DR roads 25 years ago? Even if your family didn't have a car 25 years ago, in the UK (USA/Australia/wherever) you were taught road safety. It was something we grew up with. That 'bit' has been skipped in DR. So people die in far too large a number.

I still have never driven in DR because it scares me.

But...

Most people say that their childhood was the best time of their lives...

So, taking Rocky's analogy to it's logical conclusion...

Isn't the real reason that some of you chose to live there and others of us choose to go there as much as possible, because we are jealous of that never ending childhood?

Our adult deplores the dangerous roads/corruption/crime/litter/delete as appropriate, add your own as you wish/ but really, the child inside us longs to join in? I remember when I was a kid, there was a child who lived near by who used to watch the rest of us play football. His parents dressed him up 'too old' (now I think about him, he wore a shirt and tie always). He would watch but never join in, because his parents wouldn't let him get dirty. The rest of us would be covered in mud and sweat before we went home. He used to say that was stupid of us...

What was that fable about the sour grapes? :cheeky:

 

[Rick Snyder]

Now that KeithF was a very good post!!!

 

[Chip00]

Dominican mind

As someone who is married to a Domincan and lives in Santiago and have been living/knowing Dominicans for some time I would like to state that I believe the "disorganized" at time and seemingly "unlogical" behavior comes directly from two sources. One the "value" structure that they have, "o sea" the heirarchy of important things in their mind and two, the perpetuation of this "value" structure mainly throught the influences of the family first and then reinforced by the society.

I think most people who live among Dominicans, find common Domincans to be more open and friendly in social settings than their gringo counterparts which really doesn't match with how the seemingly act in other type of settings. Also, I think most will agree that the family structure here is important and still strong relatively speaking . On the other hand this thread has covered various "issues" which basically show the "lack of interest" Dominicans for issues like driving, queing in a line, the environment, planning for tomorrow and learning new things.

I think if one can accept this it isn't really a stretch for our "rational" minds to garner a real insight into the Dominican psyche. This has nothing to do with intelligence of course nor race, because I have met some exceedingly intelligent people here - no this has to do with a value system that puts emphasis on some things "very" strongly and hardly any emphasis on other things.

This is based on my observations working and interacting with Dominicans. I'm sure many people can give dozens of examples whre they have been working with a Domican and it seems no matter how you tell them to do something, they inevitably do it their way, over and over again. My wife and our housekeeper are a couple of good examples. I can tell them over and over to close the door but as soon as I'm out of site they leave it open. By the way closing ones door to most Dominicans is anathema, which presents to the neighbors that one is anti social or proud. Domincan hold very dearly to themselves to be very social and "educated". In fact if you call someone "uneducated" it is like a slap in the face. The term as it's used of being "eductated" has nothing to do with one's actually education - but their upbringing.

Therefore if one can recognize this "value" structure it becomes more clear why Domincans will do the things they do and not be bothered by it so much. I realize that this type of value system can change with a push for education, but until the government or some group invests the necessary funds it won't happen and even if it did it would take a generation to have the effects realized. I'm not completely sure that changing of the value structure drastically would be compatible with some of the things we like so much about the Dominicans.

 

[pkaide1]

I am surprised that nobody has not said yet that we should save Dominican Republic from the Dominicans.

 

[Rocky]

Now that KeithF was a very good post!!!

I second that.

 

[Rocky]

I am surprised that nobody has not said yet that we should save Dominican Republic from the Dominicans.

Everybody has thought about it, but be careful what you wish for.
The very things you would change, would destroy what attracted you here in the first place.

 

[cobraboy]

Everybody has thought about it, but be careful what you wish for.
The very things you would change, would destroy what attracted you here in the first place.

Truly.

Some folks want the DR to be one giant AI resort...

 

[Mirador]

Truly.

Some folks want the DR to be one giant AI resort...

There goes the neighborhood! I'm moving to the other side of the tracks, make that the puddle.

 

[M.A.R.]

I am surprised that nobody has not said yet that we should save Dominican Republic from the Dominicans.

is that what you want to say???? my goodness you people are starting to "enfogonarme".... you translate that word. I'm sickened by all of your little or long analysis as to why Dominicans are the way they are. I mean this island has gone through so much, in the past centuries, that it is a miracle that its come this far, if you compare it to other islands, I think we've done pretty damn good and we are improving every single day.