- Thread starter Chirimoya
- Start date
Expat bubbles
This is a perfect example of why I don't post much. Had you used my comment about the Dominicans as being "less fortunate than I" in the context in which it was made (relative to education and opportunity) you may not have felt a need to defend yourself against what are perfectly legitimate and truthful claims.
As far as your comment "It is what it is" goes, I agree. It is what it is. However, there seem to be too many people who subscribe to this belief who seem to have a vested interest in seeing that it stays that way as well. I guess it's time to take another months-long hiatus.
You seem to have a strange idea as to what 'defense' is. Stating a different viewpoint slightly germane to the focus of this thread I don't consider a defense in a same way that I don't consider your comments as an 'offense'. Simply a different point of view - educational opportunities did not abound for me. I had to work very hard for them.
Yes, the ruling elites of the oligarchy in the DR seem to have a vested interest to keep the status quo mainly to their own benefit. I despair sometimes about the very weak quality of leadership that we have as mankind. Perhaps we deserve it.
Anyway, that stuff is why we all need our bubbles eh!
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You can't see and appreciate all the beauty from inside a bubble
Chris, you are correct in what you said above, the only difference is that AZB adds in the derogatory remarks about those from the barrio and women in general. If he wants us to understand and respect him, he should say what he means and do it without the negative comments about other people.
I know very well that there is more to the DR then the barrios.
When I first came here in the early 90's I traveled all around the Dominican Republic by myself, knowing next to nothing in Spanish (Still don't unfortunately): I was based in Sosua and went mostly by buses to Puerto Plata, Rio San Juan, Dajabon, San Francisco, Santiago, Moca, La Vega, SD, Boca Chica, etc. (And I forgot my electronic translator when I took the bus). Buses are more fun, you get to mingle with the people.
I have been to and seen more of the Dominican Republic then most Dominicans. Prior to first coming here I went out and bought copies of Cosmopolitan in Spanish, got me 2 pen pals, one in Puerto Plata and the other in SD. I visited both of them when I first came here.
Drove a moped from Sosua to Sabana Iglesia by myself.
Before I got the nerve to drive a car here, I walked practically the entire city of Santiago, through it and completely around it. I wore out many pairs of shoes. I have even walked a large portion of the distance from Puerto Plata to Sosua, been in about every part of both those cities (Early 90's).
I walked because that was the best way to get to know the people and the country. I am just an everyday person, no class, no bubble, and enjoy mixing with people. In America, many don't even know their own neighbors, here it is such a joy to walk the streets and be able to talk with people, have them say hello to you.
Bubbles have limits in all directions.
You miss the everyday beauty if you never venture outside.
Don't take that car or taxi to Teleferrico(sp), walk up the hill and then ride the cable car up the mountain. I met an American doing that who came to the Dominican Republic by flying his own home made plane. His plane was an Ultra Light, now that really was an adventure, Island hopping in an Ultra Light, a true "Wing and a Prayer" story.
Chris, you are correct in what you said above, the only difference is that AZB adds in the derogatory remarks about those from the barrio and women in general. If he wants us to understand and respect him, he should say what he means and do it without the negative comments about other people.
I know very well that there is more to the DR then the barrios.
When I first came here in the early 90's I traveled all around the Dominican Republic by myself, knowing next to nothing in Spanish (Still don't unfortunately): I was based in Sosua and went mostly by buses to Puerto Plata, Rio San Juan, Dajabon, San Francisco, Santiago, Moca, La Vega, SD, Boca Chica, etc. (And I forgot my electronic translator when I took the bus). Buses are more fun, you get to mingle with the people.
I have been to and seen more of the Dominican Republic then most Dominicans. Prior to first coming here I went out and bought copies of Cosmopolitan in Spanish, got me 2 pen pals, one in Puerto Plata and the other in SD. I visited both of them when I first came here.
Drove a moped from Sosua to Sabana Iglesia by myself.
Before I got the nerve to drive a car here, I walked practically the entire city of Santiago, through it and completely around it. I wore out many pairs of shoes. I have even walked a large portion of the distance from Puerto Plata to Sosua, been in about every part of both those cities (Early 90's).
I walked because that was the best way to get to know the people and the country. I am just an everyday person, no class, no bubble, and enjoy mixing with people. In America, many don't even know their own neighbors, here it is such a joy to walk the streets and be able to talk with people, have them say hello to you.
Bubbles have limits in all directions.
You miss the everyday beauty if you never venture outside.
Don't take that car or taxi to Teleferrico(sp), walk up the hill and then ride the cable car up the mountain. I met an American doing that who came to the Dominican Republic by flying his own home made plane. His plane was an Ultra Light, now that really was an adventure, Island hopping in an Ultra Light, a true "Wing and a Prayer" story.
Buddy, I'm happy there are people like you left in the world. I think most people that live on this Earth, especially in Western countries have lost or never even found to begin with their happiness and meaning. Life on so many levels can become an empty lie when the will to live is expressed more and more through money and the chasing and love of it. It is everything and nothing at the same time.
You can choose to live your life any way you wish, but you will tend to see things the way you want. If you want to think things are bad then you'll be expecting bad and bad is what you'll see and get every time, but if you see the beauty around you and are open to seeing the beauty in things instead of what is ugly.... you get my drift.
Life is what YOU make it and believe it or not; YOU DO have an impact to make, good or bad like it or not on others. Being happy and smiley all day long isn't easy, and you don't even have to go that far, but at least try and stay positive. It will make a difference.
You just have to want it.
You can choose to live your life any way you wish, but you will tend to see things the way you want. If you want to think things are bad then you'll be expecting bad and bad is what you'll see and get every time, but if you see the beauty around you and are open to seeing the beauty in things instead of what is ugly.... you get my drift.
Life is what YOU make it and believe it or not; YOU DO have an impact to make, good or bad like it or not on others. Being happy and smiley all day long isn't easy, and you don't even have to go that far, but at least try and stay positive. It will make a difference.
You just have to want it.
Slightly off topic? (But bubble free!)
So very true!
Even without knowing Spanish, I know I made a good impact on one young lady coming back from Dajabon on the mini-bus.
We got stopped at a military road block, just outside Monte Christo(sp). The young lady was upset and communicated to me that the Military would take all the clothes she had just bought back in Dajabon.
I communicated to her to give them to me, that the military officers would not take them from me. She did and happily we continued on our journey and she still had the clothes she had just bought.
Others question how I manage so well without being good at Spanish, it's hard sometimes, but with the will, there is always a way. It takes a lot of patience sometimes. My most used and best Spanish words are "no entiendo".
So very true!
Even without knowing Spanish, I know I made a good impact on one young lady coming back from Dajabon on the mini-bus.
We got stopped at a military road block, just outside Monte Christo(sp). The young lady was upset and communicated to me that the Military would take all the clothes she had just bought back in Dajabon.
I communicated to her to give them to me, that the military officers would not take them from me. She did and happily we continued on our journey and she still had the clothes she had just bought.
Others question how I manage so well without being good at Spanish, it's hard sometimes, but with the will, there is always a way. It takes a lot of patience sometimes. My most used and best Spanish words are "no entiendo".
Well, if you don't like Chiri's analogy of a bubble, use mine, the one of birds of a feather. That should give you sufficient freedom.
But the topic here is sub-cultures of expats in the DR. I cannot find how you categorize yourself here? Are you fine to live without close friends, close people who understand you? If so, fine. But others want the freedom to be with groups that we find sympatico - at least from time to time. This is outside of the fun of 'riding the bus' and 'meeting all and sundry'. (Does anyone understand analogies here?). I know Chiri partakes of this part of life and I do too. We don't live in bubbles you know. Chiri simply said that these sub-cultures exist in the DR and she classified the phenomemon as bubbles.
I don't think anyone says that expats should live in bubbles. This would be the antithesis of what is being discussed. (I have visions of gated communities!). I think what you see as confining and constraining, some others may see as taking part in a sympatico conversation or sub-culture. Safe Space so to speak, i.e., if you're an art afficionado, you seek and speak to artists, painters, sculptors, photographers etc. You don't really find your groove 'on the bus', so to speak, unless you strike it lucky, or your groove is 'on the bus'.
I'll tell you the story one time of making a good impact on the DR military .. being too close to a politically motivated huelga - and finding 8 of them chasing me with my granddaughter in the car, and stopping us, and surrounding the car with huge big gun things .. those huge metal things that go bang and kill people. Aarch bla! next time for the story! But hell! did I appreciate my 'bubble' that time! I'm not theorizing (theorising) here and I'm not playing with words either.
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Chris, if you meet some of the DR1 folks in real life, you will know exactly who belongs to which bubble. Its all plain and simple, their appearance alone will is worth a thousand words. Some people are just not capable of deviating very far from their bubble. They just don't have what it takes to be accepted in a variaty of bubbles.
AZB (calmly resting in my bubble in santiago)
AZB (calmly resting in my bubble in santiago)
In Principle I agree with you PabloPaul - I like to see the best in people & will generally trust before distrusting someone, like rather than dislike someone. HOWEVER, one should always be prepared for 'The Sheister', the 'Scam Artist' & check everything out with friends & acquaintances first - this is where 'the bubble' or 'Birds of a feather' grouping comes into it's own.
There was a fellow who used to post here (under many different names) who I befriended right at the start of his involvement with DR1. After a few enquiries & seeing how he related with a few of my long term friends here on DR1, I dropped him like a hot potato. History has proven my decision to be right because HE will never be accepted into any 'bubble' anywhere due to his lying ways, despite his initial 'pleasant demeanor' to anyone he thinks he can scam.
'Bubbles' or 'Birds of a Feather' are very important to the learning process of new ExPats - they pass on information that would initially contradict one's own first impression of people. Rocky is very good at this (although he originally got ME wrong!!:cheeky:
), Lambada, Hillbilly & even AZB (in his own way) are likewise GOOD sources of reputable information. If you have got questions about personalities in the DR ............... DR1 is an extremely good 'Bubble' to start with as we ARE (to a great extent & each in our own way) 'Birds of a Feather'!! ~ Grahame.I'm too dumb to fully understand this "bubble thing", so I'll just make some comments about what some folks have said so far.
To Chiri,
I think it's wonderful that you have friends who are free spirits. They're a lot more interesting and constructive, than the sheep-like people.
To SantiagoDR,
I'm stunned to hear how long you have been coming to the DR and lived here, and that you still can't speak Spanish properly.
How can you even have any valid opinions about Dominicans of their culture, if you can't understand them when they speak?
To PabloPaul,
Great post. Having a positive attitude and a half full glass, instead of a half empty one, is a great way to live.
To BushBaby,
Your advice for PabloPaul, is of course, excellent.
I'm not sure which shyster you are referring to, as there have been a few of them, although most of them have been banned from DR1, thank God, and now operate their own "scam forum".
Anyhow, no matter which scammer we are talking about, the bottom line is that they should all be avoided and not permitted to enter our "bubbles".
To Sharlene,
I know you to be a brilliant person, and it may be more difficult for you to find people who fit well into your bubble, as you not only require that they be people with good pure hearts, but you need them to be intellectually stimulating too, and that's a hard combo to find, anywhere in the world.
To Squat,
I agree to a certain point about values.
I believe that the ideal scenario for an expat, is that he try to take on all the good from the Dominican culture and reject the bad.
Then dump the bad from his own culture but keep all the good.
To Bob Saunders,
You're right.
AZB's not abrasive in person.
To AZB,
Perhaps you could be a bit less abrasive in your posts.
You would accomplish more, as you have many valid points to share with other DR1ers, but you alienate too many people, as they can't see the message you are sending, if they feel offended about the manner in which you express yourself.
Have I forgotten anyone?
To Chiri,
I think it's wonderful that you have friends who are free spirits. They're a lot more interesting and constructive, than the sheep-like people.
To SantiagoDR,
I'm stunned to hear how long you have been coming to the DR and lived here, and that you still can't speak Spanish properly.
How can you even have any valid opinions about Dominicans of their culture, if you can't understand them when they speak?
To PabloPaul,
Great post. Having a positive attitude and a half full glass, instead of a half empty one, is a great way to live.
To BushBaby,
Your advice for PabloPaul, is of course, excellent.
I'm not sure which shyster you are referring to, as there have been a few of them, although most of them have been banned from DR1, thank God, and now operate their own "scam forum".
Anyhow, no matter which scammer we are talking about, the bottom line is that they should all be avoided and not permitted to enter our "bubbles".
To Sharlene,
I know you to be a brilliant person, and it may be more difficult for you to find people who fit well into your bubble, as you not only require that they be people with good pure hearts, but you need them to be intellectually stimulating too, and that's a hard combo to find, anywhere in the world.
To Squat,
I agree to a certain point about values.
I believe that the ideal scenario for an expat, is that he try to take on all the good from the Dominican culture and reject the bad.
Then dump the bad from his own culture but keep all the good.
To Bob Saunders,
You're right.
AZB's not abrasive in person.
To AZB,
Perhaps you could be a bit less abrasive in your posts.
You would accomplish more, as you have many valid points to share with other DR1ers, but you alienate too many people, as they can't see the message you are sending, if they feel offended about the manner in which you express yourself.
Have I forgotten anyone?
Thanks for the comments Rocky.
Yes, I definitely have a Language Learning disability, even in elementary school they put me in special classes. It's a handicap, but I still try and don't let that stop me from meeting people.
That does not mean that I do not learn Dominican Culture, all tho and unfortunately, sometimes the hard way.
The reason I used the word 'bubble' was inspired by the impression one gets that so many expats live in their bubble and don't realise that the DR has other facets. The expats who have never been to the big cities don't realise that Dominicans can be wealthy and sophisticated, educated and cosmopolitan.
Similarly, I find that some of the expats who live among the urban professional Dominicans don't appear to have come into contact with the less conventional types that I described.
The 'bubble' analogy is flawed because of course many people don't quite fit into one or another. The inhabitants of my bubble come from or fraternise with most others.
Footnote to Chip's thread - I noticed two things that might amuse you all on the school run this morning - my neighbour getting off his jeepeta having just dropped his kids off at school - in his pyjamas! He is a member of a well-known artistic/media family here.
Outside my son's school I saw one dad walking his two small children to the school - either they live within walking distance or like me, they park the car a little way away to avoid the madness right outside the school - and he was in dressed in a t-shirt, shorts and flip flops. Otherwise he looked like a professional type - doctor, lawyer, engineer, bank executive - who was probably going to rush back home, shower and change into his business suit.
Santo Domingo is clearly much less uptight than Santiago.
Similarly, I find that some of the expats who live among the urban professional Dominicans don't appear to have come into contact with the less conventional types that I described.
The 'bubble' analogy is flawed because of course many people don't quite fit into one or another. The inhabitants of my bubble come from or fraternise with most others.
Footnote to Chip's thread - I noticed two things that might amuse you all on the school run this morning - my neighbour getting off his jeepeta having just dropped his kids off at school - in his pyjamas! He is a member of a well-known artistic/media family here.
Outside my son's school I saw one dad walking his two small children to the school - either they live within walking distance or like me, they park the car a little way away to avoid the madness right outside the school - and he was in dressed in a t-shirt, shorts and flip flops. Otherwise he looked like a professional type - doctor, lawyer, engineer, bank executive - who was probably going to rush back home, shower and change into his business suit.
Santo Domingo is clearly much less uptight than Santiago.
In The Words Of That Great American "STATESMAN", Rodney King.....
"Why can't we all just get along?"
I'll tell you why,because we all come from different circumstances! That's Why"!!!
I may not be able to defend some of the "things"
that "AZB" posts,but I can,and will, defend his right to say them! (Within the "Guidelines" of DR1 of course!:cheeky
Here are "some" of the "Things" that I have "learned" about Dominicans after first visiting,(Starting in 1986) and then actually "Living here"!(THAT means 24/7 for the last 12 years!!,NOT going to an "AI" twice a year!!)
I started out as a "Dominican Wannabe"! That is "Stage One"! Hanging out with "Real Dominicans" Whores,Getto Trash" Chopos, Bachateros, you know,90 % of the Dominican people!!!
(Time for the "Disclaimer"!!) Not "ALL" Dominicans are "DUMBminicans" just 90 %!
After you actually live in the DR for a few years. You realize what you are doing,"Sluming", and start to withdraw from the "Street Culture" Dumbminican Wannabe state!! You may just withdraw to the "Expat" culture,you may,like AZB start to find some Dominican "friends" amoung the "Higher Class" in the DR. AZB likes "lightskinnen,intelligent, "Santiaguerras"! so that is now his "Bubble" to use your "classification"! That is "Stage Two"!
After a few years in "Stage Two" you begin to realize that "All Dominicans Are Basically The Same!"
Doesn't matter so much what "Class", or "Socio-Economic" group that they belong to,they are ALL from the same culture (Which is homogenious, due to the DR being an island, isolated for 500 years!)
Now what does THAT mean?? Now this is where we separate the DR1ers into two groups! Those that know what I mean,and that I am "right", and those who will claim "Outrage" at what I am about to say!,and beg to know "Why?" I,and those of you who know what I mean,continue to live in the DR,if we "HATE" Dominicans So much??"
Dominican "Culture" IS Really DIFFERENT!
Here are "some" cultural "Norms" in the DR:
Stealing,lying,gossiping,corruption,envy, promiscuity, RACISM,Classism, Chauvanism, disrespect,no self-respect,abuse of alcohol,and now drugs, can't drive,block your passage, EVERYWHERE! Loud music till dawn,polluting the evironment with impunity! My finger is tired,so I will not go on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"OH!" child abuse,wife beating (Even when the DON'T deserve it!! Can You Believe THAT?)
Now lets get to "Stage Three",you "withdraw" into a "defensive perimeter"!
You only have a relationship with your family,and a very few close friends! The friends may be dominican,or "Expats"! You may have superficial "friendships" with "Others",but you NEVER allow them into your "Defensive Perimeter"!!!!!
I am VERY happy here! I could care less about how the Dominicans treat eachother ! I am "Above-The-Fray" so to speak! If you have enough $$$$$ living in the DR can be GREAT!
And Furthermore: I love to "Flame" ignorant posters on DR1!! "Duh!!"
But I really don't dislike anyone( Except Maybe "Nals",and that is not for his "So-call" posts, but because he is an exposed lier on DR1!) and I hate liers!) but some of you seem to get really and truely Pi$$ed at other posters for their opinions. Waht's Up With That?"
And could I make a post about DR Culture,and "WHY" I stay "immersed" in "IT" if I "Hate It So Much", without mentioning those beautiful,sexy,YOUNG, "EASY" Dominicanas,who "Give-it-up" to "Fat,Bald,Ugly,Old men,(Who have a few hundred pesos to spare)???
"The answer is; "NO!",I can't!
So, "Here's To" all those Domincan men who get all those young girls pregnant,and then "Move On",(NOT .org!) to the next "Victim"! Then those girls take the "Easy Way" of making money,and "Sell Themselves"! To the highest bidder!
Now to all you posters who think the girls "Have to sell themselves", to support their kids, "Bull$hit"!
Prostitutes,AND I KNOW Prostitutes!!, are Prostitues, because it "Beats Working For a Living"!!
Time to give "Nals" a chance to say:, It's worse in the US!"
The DR IS,"Just Like Everywhere Else!" but as a friend once said:, "Only Moreso!"
Cris Colon. With:.."Too Much Time On His Hands!"
"Why can't we all just get along?"
I'll tell you why,because we all come from different circumstances! That's Why"!!!
I may not be able to defend some of the "things"
that "AZB" posts,but I can,and will, defend his right to say them! (Within the "Guidelines" of DR1 of course!:cheeky
Here are "some" of the "Things" that I have "learned" about Dominicans after first visiting,(Starting in 1986) and then actually "Living here"!(THAT means 24/7 for the last 12 years!!,NOT going to an "AI" twice a year!!)
I started out as a "Dominican Wannabe"! That is "Stage One"! Hanging out with "Real Dominicans" Whores,Getto Trash" Chopos, Bachateros, you know,90 % of the Dominican people!!!
(Time for the "Disclaimer"!!) Not "ALL" Dominicans are "DUMBminicans" just 90 %!
After you actually live in the DR for a few years. You realize what you are doing,"Sluming", and start to withdraw from the "Street Culture" Dumbminican Wannabe state!! You may just withdraw to the "Expat" culture,you may,like AZB start to find some Dominican "friends" amoung the "Higher Class" in the DR. AZB likes "lightskinnen,intelligent, "Santiaguerras"! so that is now his "Bubble" to use your "classification"! That is "Stage Two"!
After a few years in "Stage Two" you begin to realize that "All Dominicans Are Basically The Same!"
Doesn't matter so much what "Class", or "Socio-Economic" group that they belong to,they are ALL from the same culture (Which is homogenious, due to the DR being an island, isolated for 500 years!)
Now what does THAT mean?? Now this is where we separate the DR1ers into two groups! Those that know what I mean,and that I am "right", and those who will claim "Outrage" at what I am about to say!,and beg to know "Why?" I,and those of you who know what I mean,continue to live in the DR,if we "HATE" Dominicans So much??"
Dominican "Culture" IS Really DIFFERENT!
Here are "some" cultural "Norms" in the DR:
Stealing,lying,gossiping,corruption,envy, promiscuity, RACISM,Classism, Chauvanism, disrespect,no self-respect,abuse of alcohol,and now drugs, can't drive,block your passage, EVERYWHERE! Loud music till dawn,polluting the evironment with impunity! My finger is tired,so I will not go on!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"OH!" child abuse,wife beating (Even when the DON'T deserve it!! Can You Believe THAT?)
Now lets get to "Stage Three",you "withdraw" into a "defensive perimeter"!
You only have a relationship with your family,and a very few close friends! The friends may be dominican,or "Expats"! You may have superficial "friendships" with "Others",but you NEVER allow them into your "Defensive Perimeter"!!!!!
I am VERY happy here! I could care less about how the Dominicans treat eachother ! I am "Above-The-Fray" so to speak! If you have enough $$$$$ living in the DR can be GREAT!
And Furthermore: I love to "Flame" ignorant posters on DR1!! "Duh!!"
But I really don't dislike anyone( Except Maybe "Nals",and that is not for his "So-call" posts, but because he is an exposed lier on DR1!) and I hate liers!) but some of you seem to get really and truely Pi$$ed at other posters for their opinions. Waht's Up With That?"
And could I make a post about DR Culture,and "WHY" I stay "immersed" in "IT" if I "Hate It So Much", without mentioning those beautiful,sexy,YOUNG, "EASY" Dominicanas,who "Give-it-up" to "Fat,Bald,Ugly,Old men,(Who have a few hundred pesos to spare)???
"The answer is; "NO!",I can't!
So, "Here's To" all those Domincan men who get all those young girls pregnant,and then "Move On",(NOT .org!) to the next "Victim"! Then those girls take the "Easy Way" of making money,and "Sell Themselves"! To the highest bidder!
Now to all you posters who think the girls "Have to sell themselves", to support their kids, "Bull$hit"!
Prostitutes,AND I KNOW Prostitutes!!, are Prostitues, because it "Beats Working For a Living"!!
Time to give "Nals" a chance to say:, It's worse in the US!"
The DR IS,"Just Like Everywhere Else!" but as a friend once said:, "Only Moreso!"
Cris Colon. With:.."Too Much Time On His Hands!"
I'm laughing .. you must have been a DR1 moderator at some stage. :cheeky: Took me three years and the one time I broke this rule cost me dearly and I won't break it again. Yes, often our bubbles are defensive.
Chiri has indeed started a new life form with her bubbles and other facets to the DR society. :laugh::laugh: Bubbles seem to have taken over the thinking of many DR1 posters and all have so many different ways of reacting to the bubble analogy. Live and let live a little .. don't take things so very personally. This is a board. There are many posters and many opinions and for once we have a discussion going. Because someone says something, does not mean it necessarily is meant personally, or that there are 'hidden meanings' behind what is said. People are simply explaining their point of view. So chill out and let's 'bubble' along!
S
sokitoumi
Guest
a very interesting post....from christopher colombus..... was it you who discovered the dominican republic....I will add that who actually has more than 5 real freinds ....there isnt the time to devote to more than a few the rest are just people you know so the bubble is really quite small almost a soapsud
CC you burnt my nose! Reminder, don't drink hot tea while reading CC posts.
You need to live here to truly appreciate CC's "eloquently" written post.
This is a great thread and should be required reading for those that live or are thinking of living here. Great stuff!!
You need to live here to truly appreciate CC's "eloquently" written post.
This is a great thread and should be required reading for those that live or are thinking of living here. Great stuff!!
I am referring to CC's post above, and I say that because I don't want to "quote" the whole thing here, but that has to be one of the most insightful posts I have ever read on this message board. Amazing. Thanks for taking the time, CC.