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One Island, One Country.
Book
Everybody, check this site out:
Destinaci?n: El D?a de Todos
Any thoughts about this incoming book?
Everybody, check this site out:
Destinaci?n: El D?a de Todos
Any thoughts about this incoming book?
Nope we need more, let's see how Clinton's appointment goes as far as getting something done before we start clapping.
Leonel's proposal would be nice and if it helps Haiti I'm for it, I just don't know if it makes sense, is there any other nation in that group that doesn't speak spanish?.
One thing I've learned mountainannie is that you are well respected in this forum and all your posts seem fair and balanced (like Fox News) so I would like to know your opinion on the lies and misinformation that is being taught to Haitians students like:
- It was their God given right to invade and occupy DR to stop it from being used as staging ground by the french for invasions of Haiti.
- That the dislike of Haitians by Dominicans was created by Trujillo and not by the abuses and atrocities of Dessalines and Boyer.
- That the Indian heritage propaganda was a racist move by the Dominican elite and not a defensive one to rally Dominicans and fight an enemy 3 times bigger.
- That 50,000 Haitians were killed in the Trujillo's massacre when in fact according to Bernardo Vega in a report based on a census conducted in that time it was only 6,000.
- That Duarte was a mercenary who killed scores of Haitians and stole their land.
Amazing what education and misinformation can do!
The more I read you the more shocked I'm, you look like "pedro el quimico" light. Did you know it was Dominican elite, or as you might call them "chosen few" who killed Trujillo? It was them who risked everything they had -and they had a lot!- to kill the tyrant and free the country from that parasite. It was Dominican elite who was leading the 1965 civil war on the side of the rebel to fight the remnants of Trujillo's regime.
It was only fitting that it was PRD (Partido Revolucionario Dominicano) with its populism culture and its Haitian leader Pe?a Gomez (or you might want to call him Ogui Pie) who made it possible for Balaguer to stay in power right after Trujillo's assassination. The same Pe?a Gomez who was saved from the 1937 massacre by a Dominican family gave his support to Balaguer in 1962 and later called him "Father of Dominican Democracy". This is the same Balaguer who 25 years before made a public statement with Vincent Carrie (Haitian ambassador in DR) calling Trujillo's massacre "a minor incident".
fair and balanced (like Fox News)
Vacara - see, you do have a sense of humour.
All these events were generations ago.
Do you really think Europe got its act together after the troubles of the previous centuries by bickering about the nuances of history?
Remembering the mistakes of history and the traumas is important, maybe.
But using a one sided version of the story to justify current hatred is at best foolish - for both sides.
Do you really think that historical these issues figure in the transport workers' minds when they closed down D.R.'s second most important trading frontier yesterday?
Are they really still pxssed off with Trujillo / Balaguer etc when they ban Dominican chicken/eggs imports?
I think not - they are just being childish and petty.
They, like a few people I could mention, need to get over it and move on.
It seems like you like the tension.
Weird.
Vacara - see, you do have a sense of humour.
All these events were generations ago.
Do you really think Europe got its act together after the troubles of the previous centuries by bickering about the nuances of history?
Remembering the mistakes of history and the traumas is important, maybe.
But using a one sided version of the story to justify current hatred is at best foolish - for both sides.
Do you really think that historical these issues figure in the transport workers' minds when they closed down D.R.'s second most important trading frontier yesterday?
Are they really still pxssed off with Trujillo / Balaguer etc when they ban Dominican chicken/eggs imports?
I think not - they are just being childish and petty.
They, like a few people I could mention, need to get over it and move on.
It seems like you like the tension.
Weird.
Trujillo was a political genius who's legacy is still felt in the electoral battles in DR, put the massacre of Haitians aside and he would be up there with Pinochet, as a guy who although was murderous, ruthless, mercyless and cruel pushed his country forward and on the path to progress.
It was them who risked everything they had -and they had a lot!- to kill the tyrant and free the country from that parasite.
Incredibly, both quotes by Vacara
For someone who doesn't take me seriously, you have certainly been taking me seriously. But then again, I'm the one who continues to waste time with this thread, so what the heck.
Once more, I'm not sure where to begin. There is just so much to rebut. I suppose that pointing out the obvious contradiction between Vacara's two posts quoted above would be a bit redundant, so I'll just begin with his take on the "chosen few" who assassinated Trujillo.
Of course I know who shot Trujillo, and I understand what became of them afterward. And that fact simply goes to support my point. Those men obviously acted with courage, but only after they stood back and let many others take the fall, and only after they thought that they had the backing of the US, and that they were in immediate danger.
Moreover, by the time they acted, they were so isolated that all but one ended up dying under very unpleasant circumstances. If they had acted years before, with more wide-spread support, their accomplishment might have had much more productive results.
The thing about the "elite" is that they usually act in a way they think is in their best interests. In 1965, they acted no differently. They were attempting to preserve what power they had left, and they succeeded, to some extent.
It was them who risked everything they had -and they had a lot!- to kill the tyrant and free the country from that parasite.
Incredibly, both quotes by Vacara
For someone who doesn't take me seriously, you have certainly been taking me seriously. But then again, I'm the one who continues to waste time with this thread, so what the heck.
Once more, I'm not sure where to begin. There is just so much to rebut. I suppose that pointing out the obvious contradiction between Vacara's two posts quoted above would be a bit redundant, so I'll just begin with his take on the "chosen few" who assassinated Trujillo.
Of course I know who shot Trujillo, and I understand what became of them afterward. And that fact simply goes to support my point. Those men obviously acted with courage, but only after they stood back and let many others take the fall, and only after they thought that they had the backing of the US, and that they were in immediate danger.
Moreover, by the time they acted, they were so isolated that all but one ended up dying under very unpleasant circumstances. If they had acted years before, with more wide-spread support, their accomplishment might have had much more productive results.
The thing about the "elite" is that they usually act in a way they think is in their best interests. In 1965, they acted no differently. They were attempting to preserve what power they had left, and they succeeded, to some extent.
I agree, Catcher.
The Elite like to stay elite.
Maybe Trujillo could be described by his followers as a "tyrannical, parasitic, political genius who pushed his country forward"?
Maybe as just a twat.
Whichever way you look at it he does not come out looking good.
The Elite like to stay elite.
Maybe Trujillo could be described by his followers as a "tyrannical, parasitic, political genius who pushed his country forward"?
Maybe as just a twat.
Whichever way you look at it he does not come out looking good.
Trujillo did evil things as you mentioned. There's no doubt about it. The problem is that without him MORE evil was being committed and would have been committed. The DR has a politically and economically fractured history since inception. Trujillo as the LESSER of two evils brought the DR into the modern era. It would have been worse on every level possible.
Still no reason to 'admire' him.
Just because he wasn't quite as evil as some alternatives might have been.
It is a sad thought perhaps that it takes some self obsessed, violent nutbag to actually become president and hold the job down long enough to have a real impact - either positive or negative.
Perhaps this the problem in Haiti and the D.R?
Just because he wasn't quite as evil as some alternatives might have been.
It is a sad thought perhaps that it takes some self obsessed, violent nutbag to actually become president and hold the job down long enough to have a real impact - either positive or negative.
Perhaps this the problem in Haiti and the D.R?
Why then you didn't say that when mountanie made his comment about disinformation in Dominican education?, beside, this events although happened long ago still have great influences in people's opinion, one of the reason some folks think Dominicans are racist is because of the Indian heritage stuff, they don't know Dominican elite had few choices.
Catcher-this post was the height of hypocrisy. You are the one who constantly makes long winded statements of little or no substance. You do not study(despite your claims) Dominican history. It's obvious from your posts. You read that novel by Vargas-Lhosa and have been using it as a history book. I've gone over this a million times before-I'm not going to go through it all again. (Anyone can search the previous posts if they want.)
I actually interviewed the real people involved in this. The shared opinion of the Vargas Lhosa novel was one of anger, outrage, digust, and a sense of betrayal. Chana Diaz told me that she only read a few pages of it and stopped; she couldn't read anymore-it upset too much. One of the people(mentioned in the Diederich history book) I met at General Imbert's house told me point blank-"Mario Vargas Lhosa's book was bull****. Interview after interview piled on the condemnation of that novel. One woman I interviewed mentioned the "rape" that Ramfis Trujillo suposedly committed of a teenage school girl-Lhosa even printed her real name. The women I interviewed told me this: "That girl in the book is a real person. She wasn't raped by Ramfis-she had a school girl crush on him. Today she's married to an American and has children. She lives in the United States. Now her children are going to read that book and think their mother was raped?! What is wrong with him(Lhosa)!!"
Catcher-you don't really know the history-you launch personal attacks and straw man arguments(like numerous posters have pointed out). You don't really understand what went on. I don't know what to do first when I read your posts-cringe, roll my eyes, or shake my head(or all of the above-I just can't decide the order).
Having to debate you is pointless-you don't know the history and you have some bizarre need to spout off and comment on everything. Whatever...
So exactly what is your point?
You just launched a fairly decent personal attack yourself, so I'm not sure how you could seriously criticize others for doing the same, and since you are forever and consistently claiming that anyone with a different point of view than yours hasn't studied history, there really wasn't any logical reason for your post.
I have no idea where you get your information, but you are so far off base it's almost funny.
Whatever....
You just launched a fairly decent personal attack yourself, so I'm not sure how you could seriously criticize others for doing the same, and since you are forever and consistently claiming that anyone with a different point of view than yours hasn't studied history, there really wasn't any logical reason for your post.
I have no idea where you get your information, but you are so far off base it's almost funny.
Whatever....
We are all DOMINICANS! Order was supplanted for disorder, structure over chaos. The country was unified, law was established and the Dominican populace moved in step.
Was it perfect? NO, but it was better than an island weakened by Caudillos jockeying for power internally and creating a DR which could be easily overrun. Trujillo strengthened the military, unified it and organized it professionally.
The DR must thank Trujillo for annihilating the attempts by Castro to turn the DR into Cuba which today is a nation in debt to the tune of 30 billion dollars and a nation which can not obtain financing except at the worst of rates and the shortest of durations.
I want ORDER in the DR. As Trujillo said in his discourse,"El bien se impone!" By sheer force of will, order is established and the chaos brought about by crime, political rivalries, provincial divisions, graft, bribery is eliminated.
The DR has a serious crime problem exacerbated by the nonsense of allegedly democratic institutions that protect the criminal and ensure his continued criminality. If it wasn't for the vestiges of Trujillo-like behavior in the DR, crime would turn the DR into Honduras with its MS gangs or Brazil with its favelas as depicted in City of God.
During Trujillo's era, criminals were executed on the streets like the mangy dogs they are.
My heart and desire for Dominican Republic is that she may prosper and grow and be the shinning light in the world and reach her potential. I also hope for great things for the people of hati. I know that the historyof the two people and the two countries is not as great as it should or could have been but I wish them the best also. I have heard the stories of Trujillo the genocide and executions that were order and took place. Wheather just or not, life should never be taken lightly or discarded easily.
I hope we here, at least, can talk without name calling and without insulting each other. I would not want the DR and Hati to be one country but I don't think that is a choice that is let to me or within my power. But I think both countries can prosper and grow, take care all and God bless
Biggs
I hope we here, at least, can talk without name calling and without insulting each other. I would not want the DR and Hati to be one country but I don't think that is a choice that is let to me or within my power. But I think both countries can prosper and grow, take care all and God bless
Biggs
A "tu quoque", a "non sequitur" and some "red herring" logical fallacies in the same post, I think she's going to break the record!!!.
Have you heard about the massacres of "Papa Dessalines"?, damn it!!!, he killed more than twice the number of Haitians Trujillo did.
order is established and the chaos brought about by crime, political rivalries, provincial divisions, graft, bribery is eliminated
Onions/Carrots
Admittedly standards do seem to have slipped a little since El Jefe's day.
I am sure you could find just a few of the above hi-jinks if you looked here hard enough
Honestly, from the (mainly older) Dominicans I have talked to in the Dominican Republic I get the impression he was not well liked by most. And I mean by that, nobody I talked to was overtly supportive. Everybody was firstly appalled by his regime's violence, secondly by the fear of expressing themselves (for Dominicans more than most, a terrible thing!), and a very few commented that there was less crime back then.
There is the old joke about how the train used to run on time.
I can guarantee if this forum was around in his day he would have banned it or censored it.
Where would that have left a person like you who likes to express his opinion so forcefully?
An invitation to feed Rafael's private collection of crocodiles?aranoid:
Onions/Carrots
Admittedly standards do seem to have slipped a little since El Jefe's day.
I am sure you could find just a few of the above hi-jinks if you looked here hard enough
Honestly, from the (mainly older) Dominicans I have talked to in the Dominican Republic I get the impression he was not well liked by most. And I mean by that, nobody I talked to was overtly supportive. Everybody was firstly appalled by his regime's violence, secondly by the fear of expressing themselves (for Dominicans more than most, a terrible thing!), and a very few commented that there was less crime back then.
There is the old joke about how the train used to run on time.
I can guarantee if this forum was around in his day he would have banned it or censored it.
Where would that have left a person like you who likes to express his opinion so forcefully?
An invitation to feed Rafael's private collection of crocodiles?
aranoid:My point during the ongoing debates on this message board has never been to defend Trujillo.
I spent years cataloging and discussing Trujillo's wrong doings on DR1. (However, most of those posts were deleted when ENTIRE threads were deleted for various reasons.) My point lately has been to describe why someone like Trujillo was able to come into power and stay in power for 31 years.
I spent my first couple of years on DR1 arguing with Golo and NALS about Trujillo's Regime. I misunderstood a lot of what NALS was trying to argue. (Golo on the other hand is an entirely different case-however, I do appreciate his input.) Several other Trujillo Era Dominicans(and a couple of Trujillo era non-Dominicans) agreed with him. And several Dominicans disagreed with NALS. DR1(for me) has always been the ultimate arena to discuss Dominican history-in English.
If one bothers to read many of the history books one can easily see that Trujillo achieved some spectacular results for his nation. Even Trujillo's 1961 TIME magazine brief obit mentions his accomplishments. What I've been trying to explain is how someone like Trujillo came to power. What made Trujillo's regime so strong and, for the most part, popular. And it was popular. I've discussed many of these things on other threads. It's never been a case (for me) of excusing Trujillo's cruelties-I never have-I simply have been trying to explain what actually made him so successful. Do people really think it was Trujillo's 2000 man army that kept him afloat throughout the 1930's? Trujillo's economic, social, education, and land re-distribution policies lie at the heart of his regime's staying power.
Many people suffered under Trujillo, there' s no about that. However, Trujillo emerged from an era of caudillos. The Dominican Republic at the turn of the 20th century was a nigtmarish place of warring warlords. Life, for the average Domincan, was very, very, tough. Trujillo brought order. Trujilllo's later cruelty was, to the rural and impoverished masses emerging from numerous, brutal civil wars and American occupation, acceptable. That's why it's important to understand what went on before Trujillo came to power. That Trujillo brought order, modernization,educational opportunities, and economic and political stability explains why he lasted so long.
Eventually Trujillo lost his edge. He seemed to forget what had made him so popular in the first place. Eventually Trujillo's negatives outweighed his positives. And so Trujillo was killed.
I spent years cataloging and discussing Trujillo's wrong doings on DR1. (However, most of those posts were deleted when ENTIRE threads were deleted for various reasons.) My point lately has been to describe why someone like Trujillo was able to come into power and stay in power for 31 years.
I spent my first couple of years on DR1 arguing with Golo and NALS about Trujillo's Regime. I misunderstood a lot of what NALS was trying to argue. (Golo on the other hand is an entirely different case-however, I do appreciate his input.) Several other Trujillo Era Dominicans(and a couple of Trujillo era non-Dominicans) agreed with him. And several Dominicans disagreed with NALS. DR1(for me) has always been the ultimate arena to discuss Dominican history-in English.
If one bothers to read many of the history books one can easily see that Trujillo achieved some spectacular results for his nation. Even Trujillo's 1961 TIME magazine brief obit mentions his accomplishments. What I've been trying to explain is how someone like Trujillo came to power. What made Trujillo's regime so strong and, for the most part, popular. And it was popular. I've discussed many of these things on other threads. It's never been a case (for me) of excusing Trujillo's cruelties-I never have-I simply have been trying to explain what actually made him so successful. Do people really think it was Trujillo's 2000 man army that kept him afloat throughout the 1930's? Trujillo's economic, social, education, and land re-distribution policies lie at the heart of his regime's staying power.
Many people suffered under Trujillo, there' s no about that. However, Trujillo emerged from an era of caudillos. The Dominican Republic at the turn of the 20th century was a nigtmarish place of warring warlords. Life, for the average Domincan, was very, very, tough. Trujillo brought order. Trujilllo's later cruelty was, to the rural and impoverished masses emerging from numerous, brutal civil wars and American occupation, acceptable. That's why it's important to understand what went on before Trujillo came to power. That Trujillo brought order, modernization,educational opportunities, and economic and political stability explains why he lasted so long.
Eventually Trujillo lost his edge. He seemed to forget what had made him so popular in the first place. Eventually Trujillo's negatives outweighed his positives. And so Trujillo was killed.
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