Assualt and Robbery in Sosua

[bob saunders]

That was a bit convoluted there bob. Is it the norm or isnt it the norm? And what is the difference between now and then? I dont think many of these men take care of their children based on my first hand view. When they get bored or uninterested with the women they get another one. I got friends who tell me "he went to get another woman" or " a younger woman" And I m like "huh? 36 isnt old" So I guess this does tie into your old guy/teenager comment. As I see it, almost all of these guys have 2 children with one women, 1 child with 2 women and then maybe might settle down with a women who is half his age giving her another 2 children. Let me know if I m wrong.

In the past it was not unusual for a man to have his wife and children from her, and on the side to have a mistress or two that he had children with. Sometimes he would acknowledge the illegitimate children with his name and sometimes he wouldn't but either way he would support his extra children and their mother financially. Now it is rare to support those other children. My wife's cousin has children from three different women and he's never been married. He drives the children to school, pays for their school and clothing- he is an exception to the rule I'm led to believe by the people on this board. You are correct in your assessment of how it normally is now days.

 

[ExtremeR]

When you have 16 years old dirt poor chamaquitas raising kids this is what happens.

 

[mountainannie]

Frank is right here. See, frank you aint bogus! But he is right, a society is only as strong as its women are(ummmm, Frank I aint gonna tell no one but you know you got this from Louis Farrakhan right?)
The things that the men do to the women are trained into them by the women who raise them. So the whole thing becomes a cyclical event. And I m guessing we are putting "husbands" in quotations because we simply mean common law marriages not solemnified by legal paperwork, ie. Shacking up?

There is a circle here too... in that the only men that the mothers can count on are the sons... so they let their sons do anything that they want, spoil them, keep them children.

The influence of the church.. both Catholic and Evangelicals ... does not seem helpful in this one either since they are patriarchal, perhaps putting more weight on the woman to obey and do what the man says.

I was talking with an American who lived in Puerto Rico for 25 years and he said that there was a real change in a few years over there. At first the women would tolerate infidility... a man could go with as many women as he wanted... and then..WOW he said the change was tremendous... the Puerto Rican women would not put up with it any more... (turned "American" I would perhaps call it)

Since there are now more Dominican women in universities than men... I am assuming that there will be some changes here in the future as well.

But I do wonder why it is that some of these men who are just here for whore mongering..-- and that among some of the very poorest-- who are clear and open about the practice.... then... suddenly expect the protection of the local police and the international authorities.

 

[El_Canuck]

But I do wonder why it is that some of these men who are just here for whore mongering..-- and that among some of the very poorest-- who are clear and open about the practice.... then... suddenly expect the protection of the local police and the international authorities.

They shouldn't expect the protection of the police. When a male tourist comes here he should be required to wear a sign saying "I am not here for whore mongering". Then he would be completely safe because the local authorities would ensure his safety under all circumstances.

The others who enjoy the company of a Dominicana to greater or lesser extents from time to time would be identified as fair game for all violent criminals. Ultimately this would destroy much of the tourist industry - certainly outside the all inclusives and perhaps some of it inside as well. But thats ok. All those evil men would be gone and the Dominican Republic could transition itself to a Utopian paradise like Haiti where tourists fear to tread.

 

[mountainannie]

They shouldn't expect the protection of the police. When a male tourist comes here he should be required to wear a sign saying "I am not here for whore mongering". Then he would be completely safe because the local authorities would ensure his safety under all circumstances.

The others who enjoy the company of a Dominicana to greater or lesser extents from time to time would be identified as fair game for all violent criminals. Ultimately this would destroy much of the tourist industry - certainly outside the all inclusives and perhaps some of it inside as well. But thats ok. All those evil men would be gone and the Dominican Republic could transition itself to a Utopian paradise like Haiti where tourists fear to tread.

Well it would be interesting to know what portion of the tourist industry is for sex... certainly you cannot find "girl friendly" all inclusives. And there may have been some beach areas which would have been good destinations for others who are not interested in open prostitution... but I do not know if any of them exist.

Perhaps those who come for the girls are indeed open targets... Certainly it seems that the beach towns are getting more violent. Or are there just more reports?

Haiti used to lead the DR as a sex destination.. as it also led as a tourist destination...

but then, there were coups and counter coups... and the AIDS epidemic in which these two countries still lead the Caribbean---

 

[RacerX]

There is a circle here too... in that the only men that the mothers can count on are the sons... so they let their sons do anything that they want, spoil them, keep them children.

The influence of the church.. both Catholic and Evangelicals ... does not seem helpful in this one either since they are patriarchal, perhaps putting more weight on the woman to obey and do what the man says.

I was talking with an American who lived in Puerto Rico for 25 years and he said that there was a real change in a few years over there. At first the women would tolerate infidility... a man could go with as many women as he wanted... and then..WOW he said the change was tremendous... the Puerto Rican women would not put up with it any more... (turned "American" I would perhaps call it)

Since there are now more Dominican women in universities than men... I am assuming that there will be some changes here in the future as well.

But I do wonder why it is that some of these men who are just here for whore mongering..-- and that among some of the very poorest-- who are clear and open about the practice.... then... suddenly expect the protection of the local police and the international authorities.

I didnt get the last paragraph, but lemme ask you about the PR thing. Are the women happier now? Because if they have been Americanized I dont know. American women dont seem happy to me, they seem angry. Oh yea, happy because of economic independence I guess, but angry at everything else. I was talking to a guy about this yesterday and I told him we can only hypothesize and speculate how these women are. We are on the outside looking in. So the PR women may not accept infidelity now, but are they happier now that they are Americanized? Many of the guys here like these women because of the lack of hostility they recieve. It could be economics or real interest.

 

[El_Canuck]

Perhaps those who come for the girls are indeed open targets... Certainly it seems that the beach towns are getting more violent. Or are there just more reports?

Haiti used to lead the DR as a sex destination.. as it also led as a tourist destination...

but then, there were coups and counter coups... and the AIDS epidemic in which these two countries still lead the Caribbean---

Exactly. And undoubtedly all those sex tourists were the cause of the social unrest and the proliferation of AIDS in Haiti. Certainly the Haitians themselves bear absolutely no responsibility for anything - just as ordinary Dominicans bear no responsibility for their current situation.

Its obviously all those evil men that are responsible for Dominicans being unable to pull themselves out of poverty. Yes, those men are legitimate targets of violence. And we can also agree that the end of tourism in Haiti has made life so much better there. And once those exploitive tourists stop coming to the DR, life will be so much better there as well.

 

[mountainannie]

Exactly. And undoubtedly all those sex tourists were the cause of the social unrest and the proliferation of AIDS in Haiti. Certainly the Haitians themselves bear absolutely no responsibility for anything - just as ordinary Dominicans bear no responsibility for their current situation.

Its obviously all those evil men that are responsible for Dominicans being unable to pull themselves out of poverty. Yes, those men are legitimate targets of violence. And we can also agree that the end of tourism in Haiti has made life so much better there. And once those exploitive tourists stop coming to the DR, life will be so much better there as well.

best get that tongue out of your cheek before it leaves a permanent dent

 

[El_Canuck]

best get that tongue out of your cheek before it leaves a permanent dent

Looks like I've been outed. Ok then I'll be more direct.

Well it would be interesting to know what portion of the tourist industry is for sex... certainly you cannot find "girl friendly" all inclusives. And there may have been some beach areas which would have been good destinations for others who are not interested in open prostitution... but I do not know if any of them exist.

If all the Dominican men are blaming foreigners for being unable to have a girlfriend then it must be very widespread indeed. And if that is the case then running the sex tourists out would cause the tourism industry to crumble. On the other hand, if running the sex tourists out of the country would have little to no impact on the tourism industry in total, then the whinings of the Dominican men have been greatly overstated. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Its also interesting to note that you did not include those foreign women seeking a little sankey pankie as contributers to the destruction of Dominican society. Why is that? Would you consider them open game for violence as well? Or would you be apalled at the thought of a Domincan man asaulting or killing a foreign woman?

And just to digress a bit more, do American men whine to you about not being able to get girlfriends because Tiger Woods seems to be screwing everything with a pulse. Certainly most men could not compete on an equal financial footing with Tiger.

But back to the original point. You admit you don't know how prevalent prostitution is in the DR? I thought you were a reporter, or at least pretended to be one on the internet. I thought reporters did things like backgound investigations and checked facts and allowed those findings to shape the story they were pursuing. Are you telling me that you just formuate hypotheses and selectively use rumour, gossip and innuendo to support some whacked out opinion? Where did you get you training as a reporter? The ACME School of Truckdriving?

It is clear to me that your postings on this topic are laced with male hatred, or at least hatred of those males who do not carry around the requiste amount of white liberal guilt and wear it like some badge of honour. I'm sure you tolerate or perhaps even admire those men that have been totally emasculated by the likes of you.

Is that direct enough for you or would you prefer I go back to tongue in cheek?

 

[RacerX]

Looks like I've been outed. Ok then I'll be more direct.



If all the Dominican men are blaming foreigners for being unable to have a girlfriend then it must be very widespread indeed. And if that is the case then running the sex tourists out would cause the tourism industry to crumble. On the other hand, if running the sex tourists out of the country would have little to no impact on the tourism industry in total, then the whinings of the Dominican men have been greatly overstated. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Its also interesting to note that you did not include those foreign women seeking a little sankey pankie as contributers to the destruction of Dominican society. Why is that? Would you consider them open game for violence as well? Or would you be apalled at the thought of a Domincan man asaulting or killing a foreign woman?

And just to digress a bit more, do American men whine to you about not being able to get girlfriends because Tiger Woods seems to be screwing everything with a pulse. Certainly most men could not compete on an equal financial footing with Tiger.

But back to the original point. You admit you don't know how prevalent prostitution is in the DR? I thought you were a reporter, or at least pretended to be one on the internet. I thought reporters did things like backgound investigations and checked facts and allowed those findings to shape the story they were pursuing. Are you telling me that you just formuate hypotheses and selectively use rumour, gossip and innuendo to support some whacked out opinion? Where did you get you training as a reporter? The ACME School of Truckdriving?

It is clear to me that your postings on this topic are laced with male hatred, or at least hatred of those males who do not carry around the requiste amount of white liberal guilt and wear it like some badge of honour. I'm sure you tolerate or perhaps even admire those men that have been totally emasculated by the likes of you.

Is that direct enough for you or would you prefer I go back to tongue in cheek?

I dont know man, that sounds a bit hostile. But anyway back to point I wanted to make. Some how in the past 2 days I have gotten into it with 4 of my female friends about the discrepancy in credibility in what they say about dominican men and what their expectations are. The 1st core belief is that dominican men are "firme" coupled with the dicho "que prefieres gallena criolla o pollo gringo?" I didnt understand that saying too much because Popeyes Fried Chicken is way better than Pollo Kiuky, Victoria o Provocon. So I guess its a statement made from ignorance or assumption.
Then I hear that while you dont have a man, you re waiting for God to deliver upon you one for your life. That to me is the biggest crock. I say "What if he doesnt?" Which is a realistic question? Everyone plays the lottery but only 1 person will win it. You cannot live your life in vain waiting for a fairy tale thick moustached prince to fall out the sky or walk out of the sea and point at you like Uncle Sam recruiting for the Marines. Then I get the carbon copy response, he will give it you as he see fit in his own due time. And then I ask the question that ****es them all off, "How do you know he didnt already send him to you and you screwed it up? I mean come on, you ve been married 3 times!" Somehow the base excuse for a failed relationship is something along the lines of "he wasnt responsible...." and "he would beat me." Now I m not advocating any issue here except farming. Because while much of it CAN be true. The market on bull**** has reached a peak and I think you should sell high. Now I m not a fan of the Dominican man, but I seriously doubt that there is ALWAYS ONE PARTY in a relationship that causes its demise. And thats what I hear: Its always his fault! Just as people worked together to build that mess they did the same to deconstruct it. I would look at that woman with suspicion because I believe if you have a history of dysfunctional relationships, do you know any better? Most of these relationships were never real in the 1st place, just that in this country there is a schizophrenia about sexual conduct. Everybody is doing it but has to pretend they are above that. So the woman marries the guy to obtain the opportunity to express her sexual capacities, in essense she is horny and this is an acceptable way for her to be sexually active. Very little thought is given to the tenacity or durability of the relationship apart from sexual desire. And then when the pregnancy happens is when the males interest starts to wane. Especially if he is unemployed or underemployed. In her mind he is "irresponsible" but so is she because her ideas of what it is to be a provider werent based in 21st Century reality. A 1930s education gives you a 1930 mindset and a 1930 frame of reference.

I know this has nothing to do with prostitution directly but it related to the concept of gossip about the Dominican man cannot get a woman because all the foreigners are stealing them or something(as for myself, I m not stealing, just borrowing).

Let me know if I m wrong. I open to discussion.

 

[greydread]

So the PR women may not accept infidelity now, but are they happier now that they are Americanized? Many of the guys here like these women because of the lack of hostility they recieve. It could be economics or real interest.

That's exactly why Western Union is flourishing. Guys who previously had no idea what it feels like to be valued as a Man are visiting and losing their minds. There's guys from Puerto Rico coming over to visit their Dominican novias every chance they get just like guys from the rest of the U.S. now and it's pretty easy to figure out why. Guys get pretty well motivated once their cajones get reattached.

 

[mountainannie]

That's exactly why Western Union is flourishing. Guys who previously had no idea what it feels like to be valued as a Man are visiting and losing their minds. There's guys from Puerto Rico coming over to visit their Dominican novias every chance they get just like guys from the rest of the U.S. now and it's pretty easy to figure out why. Guys get pretty well motivated once their cajones get reattached.

I am sorry... I do not understand this...

I was addressing the issue of men who come over here to have sex with as many women as they can...

Are you saying that men form relationships with these prostitutes, and have therm as novias?

 

[Squat]

It is clear to me that your postings on this topic are laced with male hatred, or at least hatred of those males who do not carry around the requiste amount of white liberal guilt and wear it like some badge of honour. I'm sure you tolerate or perhaps even admire those men that have been totally emasculated by the likes of you.

I believe this one as being right on the spot, after reading years of postings by Mountainannie... No offense intended, but this is simply so true

 

[theheights718]

where have you been?

I am sorry... I do not understand this...

I was addressing the issue of men who come over here to have sex with as many women as they can...

Are you saying that men form relationships with these prostitutes, and have therm as novias?

Sorry, I just read this entire thread and had to chime in. I am very newbie wise on this forum but experienced on info from forums, stories, and heading out there for my first trip in a few weeks. Anyway, do you really think these 50-60+ year old men are running around trying to sleep with as many women as possible..not likely.

Not saying all, but a lot of guys will find that one (after a few of course) that they keep in contact with, send money, buy phone cards, gifts for the kids around the holidays etc.....

To be honest, DR would not be such a tourist attraction if it was not for "prostitutes"...Tell me how many guys you know say they are going to a caribbean island by themselves or with their buddies to "enjoy the weather", "enjoy the beach", "get a tan". Lets see how many I know...ahhh zero. :surprised

Not saying all this is right, but its reality. Certain areas in DR are booked up all year round with mongers(Sosua in particular). And this stuff is all over the internet and this is why so many more "younger guys" are going down there in packs (4-5 at a time).

As for the rest of this discussion, I think all you guys points are valid..but these things happen all over the world, maybe at a lower scale but it happens. And its funny cause when people from other countries come to lets say the U.S., they only want to be with their own kind. Not all but most! You know how hard it is for me to date a dominican, puerto rican...I have a few times but the majority will not even look your way.

Assault and robbery, well to a certain point they cant be prevented or at least dropped down if people would not go out there flashy, acting like money is nothing, and being aware of your surroundings at all times. I am from Brooklyn and I know you can be robbed in your own neighborhood...but that again can take place anywhere. Why would you walk around by yourself in a place that you dont know with your wallet around chest, ipod in hand and a big sign on your forehead that says SUCKER!!!! Just be smart is all I am saying....OK I'M DONE

 

[mountainannie]

true and false

"It is clear to me that your postings on this topic are laced with male hatred, or at least hatred of those males who do not carry around the requiste amount of white liberal guilt and wear it like some badge of honour. I'm sure you tolerate or perhaps even admire those men that have been totally emasculated by the likes of you."
Canuck


It is true that I do not have much respect for sex tourists. It is also true that I am most likely considered a liberal. Also true that I think that those of us who are born with privilege -- ie US and EU passports, white skin... should be aware of our privilege.

Also true that some men may find me intimidating. Not true that I set out to emasculate men... just perhaps do not play the role that some may wish women to play...

And no, it is not true that I hate men.. just the patriarchy.. What is it.. "do not hate the player, hate the game.".

And certainly, none of you could feel threatened by someone just posting on a message board, could you?

 

[bob saunders]

"It is clear to me that your postings on this topic are laced with male hatred, or at least hatred of those males who do not carry around the requisite amount of white liberal guilt and wear it like some badge of honour. I'm sure you tolerate or perhaps even admire those men that have been totally emasculated by the likes of you."
Canuck


It is true that I do not have much respect for sex tourists. It is also true that I am most likely considered a liberal. Also true that I think that those of us who are born with privilege -- in US and EU passports, white skin... should be aware of our privilege.

Also true that some men may find me intimidating. Not true that I set out to emasculate men... just perhaps do not play the role that some may wish women to play...

And no, it is not true that I hate men.. just the patriarchy.. What is it.. "do not hate the player, hate the game.".

And certainly, none of you could feel threatened by someone just posting on a message board, could you?

Good post Annie, but you probably know, as I do, numerous poor Dominican and Haitian women that, although poorer than dirt, would not prostitute themselves. Reading your posts I certainly don't feel any male hatred( nor do I feel threatened) but I have detected some of that liberal white guilt. Being aware of our privilege that we were born in to doesn't have to translate in to guilt. I have three sons ages 19, 22, 25 and the oldest two have had sex with numerous women for free. Young women of today for the most part do not have the same moral restrictions of previous generations, and I am a child of the 70's with west coast, very liberal parents. Theses older guys that go and pay for play don't believe they are causing harm to anyone. They believe that these girls would be having sex for free regardless. Most are in that second childhood phrase anyways, having retired early, been divorced....etc. Unless they are pedophiles what harm are they doing, other than giving the rest of us a bad name? Certainly they are not affecting Dominican moral standards.

 

[jrhartley]

so what has all this got to do with the thread title

 

[bob saunders]

so what has all this got to do with the thread title

Whorehouses and the rest of the sex tourist lifestyle attracts vermin(pimps, drug dealers, strong-arm(mafia-type organizations) as well as robbers, thieves....etc. This is well known throughout the world. With a less than stellar police force, places like Sosua and Boca Chica statistically will have higher crime rates that a place of equal population without sex tourism.

 

[greydread]

Whose tongue in cheek, now?

I am sorry... I do not understand this...

I was addressing the issue of men who come over here to have sex with as many women as they can...

Are you saying that men form relationships with these prostitutes, and have therm as novias?

Novias, wives and everything in between. It's more prevalent in the younger tourists but it happens across the board. It's called the "Gringo Lotto" and it's every working girls dream. They're all just really good girls who just need someone to believe in them....and send Western Union so they can get out of "the life".

Never give a sucker an even break.

 

[MyBocaChica]

The rest are the ones that are lucky enough to meet a guy that likes them, takes them in, and helps them get out of Dodge.

Although I tend to agree with some of your assessment, I am trying hard to accept that a "prostitute" is looking to 'start over'. My opinion is that many gringos think they can "save" these chicks. be the big heroe because "we're smarter and more successful and understand global cultures". Hmmmmmm.