Commonwealth of Haiti territory of the USA

[MikeFisher]

slooooow down a lot and look for a landing place o mother earth.

this is a discussion forum Nals,
that's why there are different opinions expressed,
and if you read thousands of different opinions on such one theme from many people from many countries who are related to the DR in so many ways like short/mid/long term visitors, short/mid long term expats, short mid long term citizens, short/mid/high educated persons of all those crowds, if you read their opinions/attacks/defends/BS/feelings/take about's aso aso, if you do that you get about a theme a better overview in case of a decision 'how the world including locals think's about a specific theme' than a simple yes-or-no-poll could ever do.
you can take a crowd of Dominican people from different status's and let them discusss the theme, and they will show you very contrary results, you can take a bunch of people of the same status's from the US and you will get very contrary results, you can go on with that with poeople of any other country on this planet and you still get contrary results/opinions/meanings aso.
that's the World, man.
Vacara,
without foreigner's input on a foreigner's discussion bord i guess the discussion on that bord would be just a "POLL" with Q's asked to the locals.
i have no prob that such will get started,
will follow it up with the same interest than i do on any other interesting theme,
but til this very moment i guess it is a discussion on a bord where 'also' foreigners are welcome to join the discussion.
and hey,
i also appreciate your opinion on the things,
even that i do not agree on many things you posted,
but on some i give you the full points compared to my own point of view,
on others i would name your opinion compared to my own something 'not allowed to write here in public'.
but at all i accept everybody to have his/her own opinion on any theme.
and i await that everybody who enter's the discussion allows myself and others to express their opinion, that's what a educated disussion is all about.
that you guys just try to 'dismiss' or 'write out' somebody who has a different opinion compared to your own means to me that such persons are the real racists, the ones who do not accept the opinion of others who are not within their own crowd.

Ginnie,
like always great questions,
sorrily they do not always get ansered in a true way, just by 'going on in the same stu.. and clueless manner of some'.

name me only one white or black or inbetween mixed dominican Man who got the original truth about the black and white/dominican haitian/brown and indian hate/difference aso BS told by his father and grandfather and grand grand father.

99% of the people know that from the BS street talk, and if they are lucky they 'know' it from univercity classes,
heck,
those books i can read myself and bring them into my count.
so WTF they know??
you know???

absolutely nothing.

it is a theme which can only be handled by discussions and everybody's daily behavior with each others in daily life.

but sure not by stu.. positions built by a 'tio's' "knowledge" or written in a school book of 5th grade which may be banned/scencored in a few years on.

grow up,
get some education,
that will give ya the possibility to start to learn how to discuss.

at the moment the 'attacks' by premature writings of some make a important theme just boring to the point where people with maybe valuable input will sure not bother to waste their time on participating.

go back to your ROOTS everybody,
they're HUMAN, those ROOTS,
and they are all from the same strain.
Mike


hey,
the last 3 or 4 posts been posted while i wrote this,
so other answers may follow or not, but that been not in count

 

[pedrochemical]

That's precisely my point and look at the results of such continuous interference.

-NALs

I agree.
It has turned out a little bit of a mess although not bad overall.

It has all been foreign influence since the aboriginals though.
And were the aboriginals really doing a good job?

 

[MikeFisher]

I'm not referring to discussing this issue on this board or among themselves, I'm referring to actually wanting to impose whatever view they think is 'correct' on us, as if we are not capable of doing such on our own or forcing us to correct whatever they deem 'wrong' before we are even ready, as a people, to do such!

That's the same mentality that lead to the colonization of different people's around the world, in an attempt to 'civilize' them and to make them like 'Europeans' because the Europeans believed in their minds and hearts that that was the RIGHT and CORRECT thing to do. Look at the 'wonderful' results across the globe.

Independent people should be left to their own machinations when it comes to solving their own problems. Foreigners can only suggest, criticize, etc; but they cannot IMPOSE their will on us or any other independent group of people. Much less can they treat us as if we're little babies and they are the great paternalistic people that knows best.

No independent people will ever accept such treatment, well, at the very least, no independent people with enough self respect.

-NALs

don't spread the theme out toooo much,
or we will completely loose the point.
i mean one of the colonizations of the europeans is i.e. today's named the
United States of America.
or do you wanna tell me that most blood run there is "american native"???

to put this on the Original Theme of the Thread which says "Commonwealth of Haitian territory...",
who the heck wanna let the nephiews of a failed commonwealth run a new commonwealth??????
let's go back to the OP,
the subject of this thread received til now very poor answer/responsivity.
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

I agree.
It has turned out a little bit of a mess although not bad overall.

It has all been foreign influence since the aboriginals though.
And were the aboriginals really doing a good job?

how far back we wanna go????
the Tainos been not the first ones who been on the Isle DR neither,
they just successfully killed the prior 'citizens',
the Navajos been not the first at the spot where their last standhold is today neither,
so let's go back to the Roots,
when the lord made us all,
and then he brought accidentally in that lil poison to the genes,
named 'human behavior'
'jellousy'
'loving your neighbour, but yourself first'
'accept all races, but your's is first'.

he may be the "Boss" of all beeing,
i don't know, yet,
but heck,
he's sure a lil devil in disguise who love's to play his games.

and we go on to play by killing on words, ;o;
Mike

 

[pedrochemical]

Mike,
That is exactly my point but said better.
It is a bit like 2 fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

 

[Vacara]

As Uruguay stated that girl CANNOT be pretty because "she is black" PERIOD! It is her blackness that makes her inferior.
There is an obvious negative association with blackness/African and ..THAT IS THE PROBELM AAs and others have with it!!!.

Thandie you are taking a statement made by Uruguayo and commenting on it like it is a proven fact, which is not!. In DR an ugly person is an "ugly person" regardless of his/her color, if she is black she'll be called "prieta fea", if white she'll be called "blanca jojota, blanca jipata, jaba', de'te?ia" and others words that have derogatory connotation.

There is clearly a negative association with blackness and Africa but it is not limited to DR and it probably has to do as much with religion as with racism;

- Didn't Prophet Muhammad say that dreaming about black women means bad things are coming?, didn't he call black slaves "men of no descent"?

- The bible never condemns slavery but rather condones it and regulates it.

- Catholicism is the largest religion in DR and its opposition to anything related to Voodoo and others African superstition has largely influenced Dominicans. In 1941 100,000 people made an oath against the practice of Voodoo, but it wasn't in DR but rather in Port Au Prince in a campaign directed by a catholic archbishop. Even in Haiti Catholics reject Voodoo.

 

[Vacara]

Mike,
That is exactly my point but said better.
It is a bit like 2 fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

And when those two fleas have a night out one tells the other;

- Shall we walk home or take a dog?

 

[Thandie]

You can criticize and analyze, from afar. We don't need holier-than-thou foreigners with a sense of self-righteousness and possessors of the absolute truth telling us what to do as if we are babies in diapers.

We can handle it by our own self. If we need help, we'll let you know; until then, leave your nose out of places where it wasn't invited.

Foreigners should stay out of Dominican internal affairs. That's part of the reason this island is the way it is. Stay out!

-NALs

Does that include the millions of millions of dollars in aid many foreign countries and individulas donate to the DR? Should they stay out in that case too?????
Should the DR 'learn' to deal with their own problems with natural disasters, poor health care, education and infrastructure without outside involvement?
I have heard many foreigners say let them handle it on their own, its not our problem if they dont know how to educate and feed their kids, keep my tax dollars in my own country. Thankfully those opinions are not of the majority for the DRs sake.

Nals the DR does not exist in a bubble and you dont speak for every Dominican. We are all connected, more so now than ever before. Every nation should be open to learn from other countries if it means it will improve certain conditions. Developed countries learn from other developed countries.

Nals you very frequently call the internal affairs and conditions in Cuba wrong and voice your views on that on this board.
Should you leave your nose out of that too, since you are a foreigner, its not your business?
Are you being a holier-than-thou foreigner with a sense of self-righteousness and possessor of the absolute truth telling Cubans what to do as if they are babies in diapers?

Should the Southern Americans been left to deal with their internal affairs in relation to institutionalized racism during the civil rights movement? That was the argument against the 'meddling' Northerners... 'stay out of our business, it is part of ou culture, its been like this forever, its our life, let us handle it'.

Does the world not have the right to speak up when some countries are wrong and mistreat their citizens and violate their basic human right i.e. Aparteid in South Africa, female mutilation, anti gay laws, treating women as second class citizens, child labour/slavery etc. Should people just leave their nose out of that too because they were not invited?
Do outsiders not have a right to anaylse, challenge and speak out against what they view as wrong, even though many in that country dont 'feel' it is wrong?

 

[Thandie]

Thandie you are taking a statement made by Uruguayo and commenting on it like it is a proven fact, which is not!. In DR an ugly person is an "ugly person" regardless of his/her color, if she is black she'll be called "prieta fea", if white she'll be called "blanca jojota, blanca jipata, jaba', de'te?ia" and others words that have derogatory connotation.

There is clearly a negative association with blackness and Africa but it is not limited to DR and it probably has to do as much with religion as with racism;

I didnt use Uruguays personal experience to prove that is how ALL Dominicans think and feel, but to give you examples that mentality DOES exist.
Dont know why you continue to deny it. And as I said it is NOT limited to the DR, it happens in many other nations...that mentality is a very familar beast.
It walks like a duck, quakes like a duck and looks like a duck but you continue to deny its a duck?

Vacara, you dont speak for every Dominican. You maybe dont feel that way but you dont know the hearts, mind and intention of every Dominican so you cant speak for them and explain away Uruguays or others, factual real life experiences.

 

[MikeFisher]

Thandie you are taking a statement made by Uruguayo and commenting on it like it is a proven fact, which is not!. In DR an ugly person is an "ugly person" regardless of his/her color, if she is black she'll be called "prieta fea", if white she'll be called "blanca jojota, blanca jipata, jaba', de'te?ia" and others words that have derogatory connotation.

There is clearly a negative association with blackness and Africa but it is not limited to DR and it probably has to do as much with religion as with racism;

- Didn't Prophet Muhammad say that dreaming about black women means bad things are coming?, didn't he call black slaves "men of no descent"?

- The bible never condemns slavery but rather condones it and regulates it.

- Catholicism is the largest religion in DR and its opposition to anything related to Voodoo and others African superstition has largely influenced Dominicans. In 1941 100,000 people made an oath against the practice of Voodoo, but it wasn't in DR but rather in Port Au Prince in a campaign directed by a catholic archbishop. Even in Haiti Catholics reject Voodoo.

here i say you are right and wrong at the same time.
here is a negative association with blackness and african roots,
and the fact that such is also present at other places on the globe does IMO not put such away from the DR.
it is present here, TOO.
to mention/quote Muhammad on his speechs about 'blacks' is in this discussion completely irrelevant,
you have always to see in what times and under what cicumstances a person makes such statement to understand it the way it been meant/valid, for Muhammad at his time the 'blacks' been the people from africa, and if he could answer you to the Q today he would sure include the white africans in his 'black' naming description, too.
he did by that time not know the world the way it is today,
and i would not know of any picture of Muhammad on which he would be a "white" man neither.
it is similar, but not the same of course, with the catholic example and Vodoo in Haiti.
few hundred and in some cases many less years back the cathlic church did things which i would today just name 'assassinations/denying of human beeing aso', and they still go on with such 'denies' in even simple cases like "no condoms".
i am cathlic myself, born and raised,
but i am an well educated human, too,
so i do not have to walk every path by ole pathetic "educated ones" given to their crowd. maybe i don't fit in any crowd anyways, that would be an other theme.

And when those two fleas have a night out one tells the other;

- Shall we walk home or take a dog?

what may be meant as a nice joke could may be also taken as a fact of life, means that you can turn a "saying" in the way you wanna hear the 'sound'.

Does that include the millions of millions of dollars in aid many foreign countries and individulas donate to the DR? Should they stay out in that case too?????
Should the DR 'learn' to deal with their own problems with natural disasters, poor health care, education and infrastructure without outside involvement?
I have heard many foreigners say let them handle it on their own, its not our problem if they dont know how to educate and feed their kids, keep my tax dollars in my own country. Thankfully those opinions are not of the majority for the DRs sake.

Nals the DR does not exist in a bubble and you dont speak for every Dominican. We are all connected, more so now than ever before. Every nation should be open to learn from other countries if it means it will improve certain conditions. Developed countries learn from other developed countries.

Nals you very frequently call the internal affairs and conditions in Cuba wrong and voice your views on that on this board.
Should you leave your nose out of that too, since you are a foreigner, its not your business?
Are you being a holier-than-thou foreigner with a sense of self-righteousness and possessor of the absolute truth telling Cubans what to do as if they are babies in diapers?

Should the Southern Americans been left to deal with their internal affairs in relation to institutionalized racism during the civil rights movement? That was the argument against the 'meddling' Northerners... 'stay out of our business, it is part of ou culture, its been like this forever, its our life, let us handle it'.

Does the world not have the right to speak up when some countries are wrong and mistreat their citizens and violate their basic human right i.e. Aparteid in South Africa, female mutilation, anti gay laws, treating women as second class citizens, child labour/slavery etc. Should people just leave their nose out of that too because they were not invited?
Do outsiders not have a right to anaylse, challenge and speak out against what they view as wrong, even though many in that country dont 'feel' it is wrong?

of course a person who says 'stay the fu$$ out of other nations' should not put his/her nose in any ongoings of other nations than the own homenation, completely agree on that.
but there will always be some who write it once this way and twice the other way and always just to get a point on a discussion, an immaginary point of course, and only in their own mind, b/c a discussion between well informed/educated people is never about making points/winning a battle or such, it is just about exchanging information/opinions/feelings to finally get a discussed theme to a well written point, and such needs always different/contrary opinions.


to go back to the very Roots of all in case of races and racism is interesting, but not a theme here, anyways much too much to get it done even close on a discussion bord/thread.

and i guess it would anyways be very far off topic.

the theme of this thread is about facts of today's life,
about the problems between Haitians and Dominicans TODAY.
we sweeped much too far off course starting with opinions about african colored people, US american colored people aso aso.
that shouldn't matter,
the theme here is the Haitian nation and it's influence on the DR part of the island and about our opinion in case of Haiti to be a "next american Puerto Rico" or an other lil "Guantanamo Bay/Camp Delta".

to anser again from my own side,
just in my own personal opinion to that simple Q,
heck,
didn't they mess up enough in so countless countries with their "help", like in Korea, Vietnam, Iraqu, Afghanistan, Puerto Rico aso aso aso.

i do personally not see any help brought to nowhere there,
what are other's opinions and how it could be made better in cas of Haiti???

that's the OP of this thread.

where are some suggestions,
aside of the pages of useless selfegos and offenses and into the racial side turned game??

this topic basically should be closed since a long while for running off topic,
but it is important,
let's start with the original again.

Mike

 

[Vacara]

Vacara, you dont speak for every Dominican. You maybe dont feel that way but you dont know the hearts, mind and intention of every Dominican so you cant speak for them and explain away Uruguays or others, factual real life experiences.

Do you, or Uruguayo, or any of the others Haitians apologist know the hearts, mind and intention of every Dominican? cuz if you don't, stop speaking for them. My experiences are as real and valid as Uruguayo's, and I've not seen any Dominican deride a nice looking butt just because is black, maybe Uruguayo's friend just don't like women and use the excuse of them being black to decry them.

 

[Vacara]

Here is an interesting link on the history of "antihaitianismo" and Balaguar which may help us "foreigners" understand the mindset of the "locals"
Haiti: Antihaitianismo in Dominican Culture

Good article mountainannie, but I have a few questions I want to ask.

- Dominicans didn't have the luxury of being born -as a nation- with a national identity. Right after Sanchez Ramirez defeated the French in 1809 with the help of Spain, England and Haitians the occupants of the former colony found themselves with the question; "what the hell are we?". They certainly weren't French, British or Haitians and with Spain engaged in war against the rest of its colony and plunged in a state of prostration from which it wouldn't come out until 1936 they were not Spaniards.

One thing for sure, Haitians knew who they were, what they wanted and were coming fast to get it. It was through the use of antihaitianism that Dominicans survived Haitian imperialism, just like Spaniard used rancor to defeat the Muslims, or the rest of Europe used the hatred toward Romans to fight and defeat them, so do you consider antihaitianism bad "per se" like the writer of the article you just linked?.

- The author says the following:

"The independence struggle was often expressed in an anti-Haitian form in order to promote nationalism. What is more difficult to justify is the perpetuation of these anti-Haitian attitudes long after independence. By the time of the War of Restoration (1865), Haiti no longer planned to re-annex the Dominican Republic."

Given that today Dominicans perceived Haitians still as a threat due to a massive invasion, doesn't that justify the persistence of antihaitianism among Dominicans?, just as Americans despise Mexicans, Mexicans despise Guatemalans, Guatemalans despise Nicaraguans and so on.


Also why is the author lying when he claims Haitian imperialism ended in 1865, when in fact; it was in 1934 after the Americans, on their way out of Haiti reduced the size of the Haitian army to roughly the same size of the Dominican's, plus they destroyed all their military equipment that it finally hits them they could not afford any other military adventure. Hard to think of invading another country when you only have 3,000 Springfield rifles.

The author says:

Trujillo also supported antihaitianismo ideology with actions. In a handbook for alcaldes ped?neos (rural mayors), Trujillo instructs them to watch out for "Haitianizing influences whose consequences will always be extremely fatal for Dominican society" (Ginebra 1940, 8). Law 391 imposed jail terms, fines, and sometimes deportation for those found practicing voudou or lu? (Gaceta Oficial, 20 September 1943). These measures were aimed at further curbing any Haitian (or black) influences and at legitimizing and institutionalizing antihaitianismo by giving it the full support of the judicial system and the state bureaucracy.

Doesn't it constitute intellectual dishonesty to criticize Trujillo -and Dominicans for that matter- for outlawing Voodoo's practices while giving a free pass to Haitians for doing the same?, in 1935 right after taking power Elie Lescot (Haitian president) made a statement expressing his desire to have a "catholic government" and giving his support to Archbishop Le Gouaze in his struggle to fight voodooism and superstitions. Voodoo was already illegal but Lescot increased the punishment. It wasn't until 2003 that Voodoo would have the same legal rights as the others Haitians religions.

Call me crazy but to me this is bias.

 

[mountainannie]

I bring such a long history of working on racial issues in the States to this discussion that it is impossible for me to just start from zero. Or to even see the issues on this Island outside of the context of the States so forgive me if my post goes far off topic.

I think that the "antihaitianismo" here is a way to hold the border, to secure cheap labor, and to maintain a nation identity in the same way as the denigration of Mexicans in the US as "wetbacks", etc. is and was an effort to maintain the US border against an influx from the poorer nation into the richer one.

There is also a racial component, as there is in the States- with the issue of Latinos vs Anglos on the West coast, and then Latinos vs African Americans everwhere.

Dominicans coming into the States on the East Coast were clearly identified as "latinos" even though they may have been Black as any African.. When Dominicans first immigrated into a segregated south, reports are that they were exempted from the segregation rules because they spoke Spanish.

I think it is interesting here, the racial lines. How the Dominicans want to draw the same sort of color lines that used to be drawn in the states, but they want to draw it in a different place, between mulatto and black not mulatto and white. Eventually, of course, that line will have to be erased as well and we will have to simply acknowledge that it does not make any difference whatsoever what color one's skin is.

While there may be a racism here, and certainly there is, what there is not is the rigid social segregation that one sees both in the States and in the British islands. I think this is historical from the history of the Catholic Spanish Conquest, which permitted intermarriage whereas the Anglican Church did not.

But, of course, the history of the DR, as well as its future, is inextricably tied to Haiti, much as the DR wishes to be part of Central America.And the sooner the smart Dominicans start paying closer attention to the what is going on on the other side of the Island, and helping their neighbor, the more secure the future is going to be for all of us.

As for Voudo, neopaganism is the fastest growing religion in the US. Of course the US is probably the most religious nation on earth and we have probably every religion on earth there. So I am used to an immense freedom of religion. The idea that one should be at liberty to chose one's method of worship is a core founding value of the United States so, personally, I find any denigration of Voudo to be as offensive as the denigration of Islam or Catholicism or Evangelical Protestanism
(and I certainly have my personal issues with all of them!)
my 2 cents.

 

[A.Hidalgo]

Mirador is back or at the very least a very good clone.:laugh:

 

[mountainannie]

I am sorry, Vacara, you are right. I did not speak to your point about the argument on Voodu. Yes, it is intellectually dishonest to attack the DR for banning Voudo when Haiti had done the same.

 

[Thandie]

Mirador is back or at the very least a very good clone.:laugh:

Who is this Mirador character that everyone keeps mentioning?
Was he banned? and why? Just curious about the history.
Because maybe I should not engage with his clone then. lol

 

[NALs]

Does that include the millions of millions of dollars in aid many foreign countries and individulas donate to the DR? Should they stay out in that case too?????

What part of "If we need help, we'll let you know" is hard to understand?

Plus, aid to the DR has been on a declining scale for years.

Nals the DR does not exist in a bubble and you dont speak for every Dominican.

I may not speak for every Dominican, but as a Dominican I have way more legitimacy in all of this than you or any other foreigner could ever have.

Every nation should be open to learn from other countries if it means it will improve certain conditions. Developed countries learn from other developed countries.

Absolutely, but every nation doesn't have the right to IMPOSE their will on anyone else.

Nals you very frequently call the internal affairs and conditions in Cuba wrong and voice your views on that on this board.
Should you leave your nose out of that too, since you are a foreigner, its not your business?
Are you being a holier-than-thou foreigner with a sense of self-righteousness and possessor of the absolute truth telling Cubans what to do as if they are babies in diapers?

There is a BIG difference between voicing one's opinion and trying to IMPOSE your will on an independent people.

If you read my previous post diligently, you will notice that I made clear that distinction.

-------------------------------------

In any case, here is another perfect example of why foreigners should not meddle in other country's internal affairs:

Diputados critican que LF pida a nombre de Hait?

PUERTO PR?NCIPE, HAIT?. Diputados haitianos expresaron su oposici?n a que gobiernos del ?rea soliciten ayuda econ?mica en nombre de Hait? en escenarios internacionales y plantearon que la soluci?n a sus problemas internos descansa sobre los habitantes de esa naci?n.

Los congresistas agrupados en la Confederaci?n de Parlamentarios Progresistas (CPP), que integran 52 diputados miembros de diez organizaciones pol?ticas, plantearon que est?n dispuestos a recibir todo tipo de ayuda "pero no est?n de acuerdo que ning?n pa?s pida a nombre de Hait?".

Los parlamentarios haitianos ofrecieron sus declaraciones a una comisi?n de periodistas dominicanos que le preguntaron qu? pensaban sobre el llamado que hizo el presidente Leonel Fern?ndez en la pasada reuni?n de la FAO, realizada en Roma, para que la comunidad internacional ofrezca ayuda econ?mica a Hait?.

"Hait? estar?a en disposici?n de recibir ayuda, si le dan ayuda; pero no que un gobierno de otro pa?s, vaya a pedir en nombre de Hait?", reiteraron.

Resaltaron que el futuro de su naci?n y de que cada haitiano en particular depende de sus habitantes.

Diario Libre

I guess this is a problem for Mountainannie's hope of having Dominicans help the Haitians; they don't want anyone to meddle in their internal affairs!
-NALs

 

[Thandie]

I may not speak for every Dominican, but as a Dominican I have way more legitimacy in all of this than you or any other foreigner could ever have.

Absolutely, but every nation doesn't have the right to IMPOSE their will on anyone else.

There is a BIG difference between voicing one's opinion and trying to IMPOSE your will on an independent people.
-NALs

And do you have more legitimacy than Dominicans who have a different opinion than you or have a similar opinion to a foreigner on this subject?

What nation or individual is trying to IMPOSE their will on you or any Dominican? Show me where this is happening. Arent we all just voicing our own opinion based on our own personal experiences?

 

[Thandie]

Do you, or Uruguayo, or any of the others Haitians apologist know the hearts, mind and intention of every Dominican? cuz if you don't, stop speaking for them. My experiences are as real and valid as Uruguayo's, and I've not seen any Dominican deride a nice looking butt just because is black, maybe Uruguayo's friend just don't like women and use the excuse of them being black to decry them.

Every Dominican I am close personal friends with yes! Just like my friends know my beliefs and the things I hold close to heart based on my words, behaviours and actions towards others.

You can continue to pull the Haitian apologist or undercover gay card but I am not playing that game with you. This discussion is not about the blame game or your obsession with pro or anti Dominican-Haitian anything. Haiti is not the cause of all the problems that exist in the DR, not even close.

 

[Vacara]

I am sorry, Vacara, you are right. I did not speak to your point about the argument on Voodu. Yes, it is intellectually dishonest to attack the DR for banning Voudo when Haiti had done the same.

Thank you for addressing my "nonsensicalities".