Haiti and Dominican Republic related topics and issues

Willowtears

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I will leave this argument as is. I will obviously not win an argument of Soclialism vs Capitalisim. Capitalist will always use the excuse of corrupt dictators to argue that socialisim will never work. Do you know that KM predicted the fall Capitalism? Can we not see the thread for the last couple of years how the economy has slowly found a landslide, until it finally crashed and soon a prosperous economy will be something we will only remember.

Perhaps you are all right regarding your opinions of a Socialist state.

P.S. For those of you automatically assuming I'm a male, well I'm very much a female with plenty of estrogen to spare, closing in on my 30's
 

Marianopolita

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Socialism is not the solution for the DR

I always find it interesting to read comments about those who think Cuba socialist's regime is a role model to follow. Chances are these very people have never visited or lived in the country. If they have visited it was mostly likely on vacation on some beach in Varadero or Holgu?n which does not represent the plight of Cubans. Why would anyone who understands the slightest about politics, Cuba's government and social regimes past and present even suggest something so outrageous. It's not 'a role model to follow'. While there are a few positives in Castro's Cuba- education, very low crime, and a unique social and world consciousness noticeable about many Cubans (which can be a positive result of poverty in which they live), there are many negatives which includes the deplorable conditions in which they live and many Cubans are hungry. The system has failed for decades and was only propped up by the Soviet Union before it collapsed. Therefore, Cuba needed to find another country with which to position itself favorably i.e. Venezuela. As well, having your freedom (of speech) limited or taken away is a sign of regression in the 21st century.

The poor remain poor in a socialist state and really have no chance of improving their plight. How does this compare to the poor in democratic countries? The poor in democratic nations have a chance to improve their social condition if they choose to turn their situation around no matter how deep in the rut if they are or how difficult it may be.

Willowtears, I am not trying to change your opinion but it does seem like you are an outsider looking in and its always easier to praise Cuba when you don't actually live there. Keep in mind in a general sense people don't run from a 'good' situation. Many Cubans who risked their lives in shark infested waters did not do so because they were thriving in Castro's Cuba.

Have you ever read any literature from Pedro Juan Guti?rrez- a Cuban author, essayist, journalist? While his style may be too crude for most, there is no flowery tales about life in Cuba. If you read his series of novels about Cuba post the fall of the Soviet Union, you may have a different perspective about how many Cubans endure in a socialist regime. I have no idea how the translated books are but I have read all the novels in the series and can't imagine a translated version of his novels having the same impact. I recommend reading any of them in Spanish.

My recommendation:

Trilog?a sucia de La Habana

347fjmq.jpg



I think it suffices to say simply that socialism in the DR is not the solution. Is a change of government needed? Absolutely however, going backwards in time will only serve to further destroy a nation that is barely staying afloat.


-MP.
 
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mountainannie

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I just finished a two day visit with my friend who is a travel agent over in Haiti iat Voyages Lumiere. The new Oasis Cruise line is going to be bringing in 6000 passengers every two weeks with $10 a head going to the Haitian government. Plus there are other ships that come into the North, near The Citadel, on three other days a week.She is very busy most of the high season with tourists going to Jacmel, the Iron Market, and PauP.

The security situation has cleared up considerably... of course most of the kidnappings were Haitian Americans and Haitian Canadians although neither government can say that on their web site. In 12 years, Jaqueline had never heard of a tourists being hurt. The overall crime rate there is actually about a quater of what it is here... a tenth of what it is in Jamaica.

The beaches in Haiti are still pristine. The hotels have excellent service and fine French cooking... although they are more expensive than the DR... but we should remember that up til 86 there was MORE tourism in Haiti than here.

There has been the passage of the first reading of a constitutional amendment to allow dual nationality so that the Diaspora can return and vote and serve in the government. It has to pass a second Congress.. then be implemented. I think that this will make a huge difference in undoing the lock on power... and corruption... now held by the political class.

Most people who have had contact with Haitians in the diaspora will testify that the majority of them are very well educated and competent. The old education system which was in place under the French could certainly be considered a superior model. So if the diaspora can return with citizenship rights, there will most likely be a profound change in Haiti.

While all the Stats quoted by HB are correct, let us not forget the amazing talent of the Haitians Almost all the art that is sold here is done in Haiti,,,,, and we know about the labor etc etc etc.

Lots of people are working and thinking on it... such as how to get small refillable propane canisters so that the people can get off of charcoal. Do not forget that it was Balaguers policy of giving out stoves and subsidizing propane which helped preserve the forests of the DR.

There is a growing consciousness that Haiti is STILL coming out of slavery... there is a broad international discussion of the restavek system which is now being termed child slavery. Now that the US has lifted its ban on birth control.. we are hoping that there will be more information given to the women ... to start reducing the population growth.

I am not a big fan of the FTZ model but evidently there is much being made of the HOPE2 act which allows Haiti to export clothing with fabric which does not come from the US.

More roads are being built every day.. to facilitate commerce and transportation,

There is a private company in Florida which does customs clearance now of stuff coming from there, to collect revenues and see that it gets to the government rather than private hands.

So ... while it is indeed serious... let us remember that Haiti, like the DR had a 30 year long brutal dictatorship then a populist leftist, then one coup, an invasion, another coup.... so all these things have held back progress.

There are other factors... the conflict between the evangelicals and voodusants... the wiide class divide marked by those who speak French and those who speak only Kreyole.

But like the Dominican diaspora, the Haitian diaspora sends home an amount equal to a good portion of the Federal budget... now about 12%....

So yes, I have a lot of hope for Haiti.
 

Chip

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I will leave this argument as is.

I guess we can assume then that you are all for the wholescale murder, incarceration and bullying of dissenters?

How convenient it is to ignore socialism very recent and very bloody history. Somehow I thought we should hope to find a better political system, not something that takes us back to the dark ages.

Then again if you kill many of the population then there will be more food for all, hmmmm...
 

A.Hidalgo

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I always find it interesting to read comments about those who think Cuba socialist's regime is a role model to follow. Chances are these very people have never visited or lived in the country. If they have visited it was mostly likely on vacation on some beach in Varadero or Holgu?n which does not represent the plight of Cubans. Why would anyone who understands the slightest about politics, Cuba's government and social regimes past and present even suggest something so outrageous. It's not 'a role model to follow'. While there are a few positives in Castro's Cuba- education, very low crime, and a unique social and world consciousness noticeable about many Cubans (which can be a positive result of poverty in which they live), there are many negatives which includes the deplorable conditions in which they live and many Cubans are hungry. The system has failed for decades and was only propped up by the Soviet Union before it collapsed. Therefore, Cuba needed to find another country with which to position itself favorably i.e. Venezuela. As well, having your freedom (of speech) limited or taken away is a sign of regression in the 21st century.

The poor remain poor in a socialist state and really have no chance of improving their plight. How does this compare to the poor in democratic countries? The poor in democratic nations have a chance to improve their social condition if they choose to turn their situation around no matter how deep in the rut if they are or how difficult it may be.

Willowtears, I am not trying to change your opinion but it does seem like you are an outsider looking in and its always easier to praise Cuba when you don't actually live there. Keep in mind in a general sense people don't run from a 'good' situation. Many Cubans who risked their lives in shark infested waters did not do so because they were thriving in Castro's Cuba.

Have you ever read any literature from Pedro Juan Guti?rrez- a Cuban author, essayist, journalist? While his style may be too crude for most, there is no flowery tales about life in Cuba. If you read his series of novels about Cuba post the fall of the Soviet Union, you may have a different perspective about how many Cubans endure in a socialist regime. I have no idea how the translated books are but I have read all the novels in the series and can't imagine a translated version of his novels having the same impact. I recommend reading any of them in Spanish.

My recommendation:

Trilog?a sucia de La Habana

347fjmq.jpg



I think it suffices to say simply that socialism in the DR is not the solution. Is a change of government needed? Absolutely however, going backwards in time will only serve to further destroy a nation that is barely staying afloat.


-MP.

As usual your analysis is on the mark. With this one post you have said more about the reality of Cuba than dozen's of post's by the usual suspects. I know you have your reservations, but come back more often.
 

Willowtears

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I always find it interesting to read comments about those who think Cuba socialist's regime is a role model to follow. Chances are these very people have never visited or lived in the country. If they have visited it was mostly likely on vacation on some beach in Varadero or Holgu?n which does not represent the plight of Cubans. Why would anyone who understands the slightest about politics, Cuba's government and social regimes past and present even suggest something so outrageous. It's not 'a role model to follow'. While there are a few positives in Castro's Cuba- education, very low crime, and a unique social and world consciousness noticeable about many Cubans (which can be a positive result of poverty in which they live), there are many negatives which includes the deplorable conditions in which they live and many Cubans are hungry. The system has failed for decades and was only propped up by the Soviet Union before it collapsed. Therefore, Cuba needed to find another country with which to position itself favorably i.e. Venezuela. As well, having your freedom (of speech) limited or taken away is a sign of regression in the 21st century.

The poor remain poor in a socialist state and really have no chance of improving their plight. How does this compare to the poor in democratic countries? The poor in democratic nations have a chance to improve their social condition if they choose to turn their situation around no matter how deep in the rut if they are or how difficult it may be.

Willowtears, I am not trying to change your opinion but it does seem like you are an outsider looking in and its always easier to praise Cuba when you don't actually live there. Keep in mind in a general sense people don't run from a 'good' situation. Many Cubans who risked their lives in shark infested waters did not do so because they were thriving in Castro's Cuba.

Have you ever read any literature from Pedro Juan Guti?rrez- a Cuban author, essayist, journalist? While his style may be too crude for most, there is no flowery tales about life in Cuba. If you read his series of novels about Cuba post the fall of the Soviet Union, you may have a different perspective about how many Cubans endure in a socialist regime. I have no idea how the translated books are but I have read all the novels in the series and can't imagine a translated version of his novels having the same impact. I recommend reading any of them in Spanish.

My recommendation:

Trilog?a sucia de La Habana

347fjmq.jpg



I think it suffices to say simply that socialism in the DR is not the solution. Is a change of government needed? Absolutely however, going backwards in time will only serve to further destroy a nation that is barely staying afloat.


-MP.

I'm not idolizing Cuba...I don't believe in a system run by dictators, I'm merely arguing the benefits of a Socialist economic system. You are right regarding the fact that I have not travel to Cuba, however, it does not change the fact that "While there are a few positives in Castro's Cuba- education, very low crime" (put in your words). Now, can you tell me if Dominican Republic has the slightest chance of bring crime down? And a chance of improving the health and education system? Not chance, because we are slowing falling down a slope. Crime in Dominican Republic is extremely high along with poverty and illiteracy. Have you mingle in the slums of the Dominican Republic...try aruging with those individuals!

I'm sure the series of book you have recommended argue excellent point of views. All I said, can we see Dominican Republic as a Socialist system...All I received were negative replies as to why we should not be a Socialist country along with dozens of comparison. Hunger is morals biggest nemisis!
 
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Hillbilly

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Let me say that mountainannie has pointed out some of those individual things that give hope to Haiti. I did not know about the change in the law...interesting indeed. there is a tremendous Haitian population that is educated and world wise that can give the country a boost, for sure.

The comments about cruise liners coming in is interesting. In its hayday POP had like 4 to 6 ships a week coming into port. But the local squabbled so much, hassled the tourists so much and squeezed them so much that they killed that goose. If you can believe it, the cruise lines got completely reliable feedback from their passengers that they liked Cape Haitian much better than Puerto Plata. The Haitians know how to treat visitors, that is a given.

Let us hope that these changes can be portents to a better future. God knows they need it. I am not sure how much they deserve it.

HB
 

bachata

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If anybody things the DR and Haiti will be "one country" in the near present or at any time in the future they have obviously never been to either country nor likely that they have ever even talked to a Dominican or Haitan.

If you think they still will "merge" at some point explain to me why the Palestinian and Jews have not merged after 1500 years???

Not only that, while Dominicans are inherrently suspicious of their Haitian neighbors, Haitans too are suspicious of Dominicans. Throw in the language and cultural difference and you can bet on these two countries being separate until the second coming.

As far as them working "together", Haiti needs to fix it's problems first and it will then naturally attract Dominican investment, etc. Then this is when attitudes will change here in the DR.

Bravo Chip, Hablaste por los prox. 1000 years.

JJ
 

mountainannie

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Let me say that mountainannie has pointed out some of those individual things that give hope to Haiti. I did not know about the change in the law...interesting indeed. there is a tremendous Haitian population that is educated and world wise that can give the country a boost, for sure.

The comments about cruise liners coming in is interesting. In its hayday POP had like 4 to 6 ships a week coming into port. But the local squabbled so much, hassled the tourists so much and squeezed them so much that they killed that goose. If you can believe it, the cruise lines got completely reliable feedback from their passengers that they liked Cape Haitian much better than Puerto Plata. The Haitians know how to treat visitors, that is a given.

Let us hope that these changes can be portents to a better future. God knows they need it. I am not sure how much they deserve it.

HB


I do not want to start a HUGE discussion over this but have to take exception a bit with

"I am not sure how much they deserve it."

As most of you know, Haiti has had a singular history in the hemisphere. It went from an intensive slave colony directly to self rule.,.. by those same slaves, who themselves had little or no education. They were blockaded by their neighbors... or at least not recognized... as a slave state next to the US which was still a major slave holder. They were indeed the victims of massive racial discrimination (although I am certainly tired of THAT particular concerto, but it is an historical fact) and they are the only colony in the hemisphere which had to pay reparations to its colonial power. It was these reparations which started the massive deforestation as the one product that they had was the mahogany...

So we really need to look at Haiti in a very different historical context than the DR.

It was perhaps the fault of Dessalines who essentially barred the white man from coming in "as master", thereby closing Haiti to the influx of immigrants from Europe which has so benefited the DR over the centuries.

It is true that there have been many Arab, and Lebanese families which have become part of the merchant prince class of Haiti.

Also, we need to understand the Duvalier himself was a revolution, bringing in the rule of the blacks -- "les noiristes" over the mulattos which had traditionally ruled.

Arisitide came in with a strong liberation theology background, sounding a lot like Chavez and Castro. and so the US withheld aid which was the backbone, still, of their economy... (think for instance of how well the DR would be doing now if there were no IMF stand by money, no World Bank loans, no foreign aid).. This led the way for the first coup against Aristide.

We can argue for months over Aristide.. on how flawed he was as a President. Flawed... most decidedly.


Then the US. now under the rule of the Democratic party, Clinton, took Aristide in, gave him the 9 million that Haiti had on account in the US. That money, Aristide used for his personal campaign to return..... which he did with the aid of the US Marines.

There are arguments to be made for and against JBA... certainly he was a flawed ruler, certainly he stole from his people, certainly he allowed the narco trafficers to use his nation as a way station. But he also gave the vast majority of Haitians the sense that they had some power. He introduced Kreyole as an official language and Voodu as a recognized religion. There are millions who still adore him and would vote for him again if he returned.

Now Haiti is an international protectorate. No one really believes that their elections are free and fair. JBAs party is still banned from the elections. And the international NGOs are making vast sums of money over, really, keeping the poor, poor.... (There are some NOTABLE exceptions to this.. most of them small, most of them home grown.... )

Their loans to the World Bank have been paid... and that payment was taking up $1million per week.. so the relief from that debt-- which indeed many say was incurred through payment of the reparations and most certainly by Duvalier.... will give them a fresh start.

So in response to HBs comment on their deserving it...

IMHO... they most certainly do.
 
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mountainannie

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I just wanted to add an historical note for those who may not know much about Haiti under French rule.

When it was a colony, Haiti produced more than the 13 British colonies in the US COMBINED.

The form of slavery that was practiced in Haiti is singular... unlike the other slave colonies in the hemisphere, in the Antilles, in the US South, there was never an effort to "produce" more slaves in Haiti. France, through its connections in Africa, always had a ready supply of new slaves. Their ships were deliberately cruel and expected to lose a third to half of the "cargo" so that only the strongest would be sold in Haiti. These Blacks who came from Africa were therefore some of the strongest, and there was a constant "refreshment" of new slaves, fresh from Africa.

In addition, there arose from the very beginning of Haiti a distinction between black and the "mulattos" who were the children of the French planters and their slaves. These children were born into freedom. They were often sent by their fathers to France for education. They were always more educated than the French planters who ruled over the Blacks.

So Haiti has a unique history in the hemisphere.

And most certainly, they did not get to the state of ruin that they are in today without help.

In 1981 or so, the US ORDERED that all the Kreyole pigs be destroyed because of the fear of swine flu. Now that pig was the backbone of the Haitian farmer, the main source of protein. These pigs were replaced by Iowa pigs who did not forage and expected to be fed... about three times as much as the Haitians. (now the descendants of those Iowa pigs have turned Kreyole and can be seen helping to clean up the garbage in PauP).

Then the US introduced its subsidized rice into the Haitian market. Within two years, the local rice industry had collapsed. Some report that those first shipments of US rice were accompanied by US guns but I have no academic reference for that.

During the OAS boycott of Haiti, after the faulty 2000 elections, the DR increased its egg production and flooded the Haitian market. Many say that the DR eggs were dumped in Haiti,,, i e sold for less than production price.

So within a couple of years, the local egg market collapsed.

Now Haiti is still holding the boycott on DR eggs which it put in after the bird flu scare a few years ago. It is not about the bird flu but an effort to help increase the local market.

(I think this is all for this morning!)
 

cobraboy

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I just wanted to add an historical note for those who may not know much about Haiti under French rule.

When it was a colony, Haiti produced more than the 13 British colonies in the US COMBINED.

The form of slavery that was practiced in Haiti is singular... unlike the other slave colonies in the hemisphere, in the Antilles, in the US South, there was never an effort to "produce" more slaves in Haiti. France, through its connections in Africa, always had a ready supply of new slaves. Their ships were deliberately cruel and expected to lose a third to half of the "cargo" so that only the strongest would be sold in Haiti. These Blacks who came from Africa were therefore some of the strongest, and there was a constant "refreshment" of new slaves, fresh from Africa.

In addition, there arose from the very beginning of Haiti a distinction between black and the "mulattos" who were the children of the French planters and their slaves. These children were born into freedom. They were often sent by their fathers to France for education. They were always more educated than the French planters who ruled over the Blacks.

So Haiti has a unique history in the hemisphere.

And most certainly, they did not get to the state of ruin that they are in today without help.

In 1981 or so, the US ORDERED that all the Kreyole pigs be destroyed because of the fear of swine flu. Now that pig was the backbone of the Haitian farmer, the main source of protein. These pigs were replaced by Iowa pigs who did not forage and expected to be fed... about three times as much as the Haitians. (now the descendants of those Iowa pigs have turned Kreyole and can be seen helping to clean up the garbage in PauP).

Then the US introduced its subsidized rice into the Haitian market. Within two years, the local rice industry had collapsed. Some report that those first shipments of US rice were accompanied by US guns but I have no academic reference for that.

During the OAS boycott of Haiti, after the faulty 2000 elections, the DR increased its egg production and flooded the Haitian market. Many say that the DR eggs were dumped in Haiti,,, i e sold for less than production price.

So within a couple of years, the local egg market collapsed.

Now Haiti is still holding the boycott on DR eggs which it put in after the bird flu scare a few years ago. It is not about the bird flu but an effort to help increase the local market.

(I think this is all for this morning!)
So gubmint planning killed the aitian economy?

No surprise here...
 

cobraboy

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Ay no, Cobra,you do not win this one

most of this push for the rice and eggs came from your beloved capitalists...

who
ALWAYS operate for the good of mankind, right?
Capitalism creates more than socialism does, that's for sure.

Why did Haiti allow outsiders to interfere with thier Paradise?
 

mountainannie

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Capitalism creates more than socialism does, that's for sure.

Why did Haiti allow outsiders to interfere with thier Paradise?

I guess they had seen enough of what the "outsiders" could do. It is said that when the Indians in Haiti saw the white man coming... with their guns and drums and slaves and such, they killed their children and went north and jumped off the highest cliff......Sauteurs, it is called.
 

mountainannie

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Capitalism creates more than socialism does, that's for sure.

Why did Haiti allow outsiders to interfere with thier Paradise?

I am sorry,, I misread your post... The first US invasion of Haiti..in 1915 was because the "natives" had assinated (sp? I NEVER get that one right) their president and were marching down the main boulevard with his head on a stake....

Well, you know, we had the Monroe Doctrine and it was our "sphere of influence" and this was simply "not civilized" (quick bullet to the back, no parades, that is our style) so they sent the Marines.. from which came the favorite quote of William Jennings Bryant, Secretary of State "Imagine that niggers speaking French"

Then ... I believe, the US also, while we were in the neighborhood, invaded the DR and took over the customs of both nations... in part to see to that Haiti's debt to France was repaid......

Dominicans can speak more to this particular invasion than I can..
 

bachata

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All you related about Haiti looks alike Dominican History.

JJ
 

mountainannie

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All you related about Haiti looks alike Dominican History.

JJ

Well certainly the invasions and the Long Arm of Uncle Sam and the dictatorships were similar... but the DR never had the level of slavery that Haiti had...

plus the DR had Haitian rule, then going back to Spain, then independence---- And really has always seemed to maintain a good relationship with Spain which has given a lot of aid. The influence of France is felt in Haiti, of course, with the education system and the language but it was perhaps a more troubled relationship.
 

bachata

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40 years ago Haiti was in a better economic and military situation than the DR I remember that time I was going to elementary school and we Dominican was afraid of a Haitian invation by this time, I'm talking about the governement of Jeanclaud Dubalier.

JJ
 

PICHARDO

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I just wanted to add an historical note for those who may not know much about Haiti under French rule.

When it was a colony, Haiti produced more than the 13 British colonies in the US COMBINED.

Let me add some historical notes to this too!

When Haiti was a colony, the now called Haitians were slaves under their owners. They worked the land until night had fallen and not enough Moonlight was irradiated to continue the work. In fact, slaves pled for the Moon never to bee seen at nights so they could be spared the never ending work days!

This was the so storied time of the "Perl of the Antilles" epoch for Haiti (French Held Saint Domingue). One that Haitians still today fail to associate with what their ancestors rebelled against to regain their freedom and humanity.

Comparing the output of the then 13 British Colonies in the US at the time is like comparing grapefruits to walnuts... In French held Saint Domingue the slave population outnumbered their master by 100 to 1 at the very least, in the US then British ones the majority of work fell on the backs of those same natives born to colonists there and the same colonists now settled as well for good. The slave ratio in those colonies is too slanted towards the natives and colonist to even attempt a parallel comparing of the two.


The form of slavery that was practiced in Haiti is singular... unlike the other slave colonies in the hemisphere, in the Antilles, in the US South, there was never an effort to "produce" more slaves in Haiti. France, through its connections in Africa, always had a ready supply of new slaves. Their ships were deliberately cruel and expected to lose a third to half of the "cargo" so that only the strongest would be sold in Haiti. These Blacks who came from Africa were therefore some of the strongest, and there was a constant "refreshment" of new slaves, fresh from Africa.

Pure speculation on the part of many that write about Haiti's slavery as being more brutal than any face by any other negroes around.
There was not a steady supply or reserves of slaves fresh to pick from their suppliers for the French. The fact that slaves transported to the French held part of Hispaniola faced harder odds of survival was due to the size of the ships being used to transport them there. The territory held by the French in Hispaniola as not that big when compared to others in their grasp as colonial powers at time and until this day. As such, the need for slaves to replenish the slave force was not that huge to commit large resources into sending large ships to the island to that end. The French used the most economical transport they could find and that was the main reason that many to board those ill-fate boats made it alive to their end destination.

These boats were not the ones used and purposely arranged to carry full loads of slaves in long hauls. Many were just small and speedy boats that seldom could fit the slaves even standing up in their feet leaning against each other, much less tied down on their backs to the boat's wooden floors.
Lack of proper ventilation did most in before the trip was half underway, as those without endurance to extreme air lacking conditions lost consciousness soon after the many bodies there started to emit their toxins into the air.

The concentration of people exhaling built up enough polluted and oxygen lacking air to render all with massive headaches for the entire trips, that's without the boats own motion in the water.

The slaves aimed for Haiti post French take over of the side of Hispaniola, faced the same conditions as described above. That's why under the French rule, the slave brought to the island was less than their predecessors the Spanish. The French used free-lancers and pirate types of merchants (means the ones that attacked Spanish and British boats and not theirs) to have their new slaves brought to the colony.



In addition, there arose from the very beginning of Haiti a distinction between black and the "mulattos" who were the children of the French planters and their slaves. These children were born into freedom. They were often sent by their fathers to France for education. They were always more educated than the French planters who ruled over the Blacks.

So Haiti has a unique history in the hemisphere.

And most certainly, they did not get to the state of ruin that they are in today without help.

In 1981 or so, the US ORDERED that all the Kreyole pigs be destroyed because of the fear of swine flu. Now that pig was the backbone of the Haitian farmer, the main source of protein. These pigs were replaced by Iowa pigs who did not forage and expected to be fed... about three times as much as the Haitians. (now the descendants of those Iowa pigs have turned Kreyole and can be seen helping to clean up the garbage in PauP).

Unlike today, at the time the swine flu propagate around the world's source markets, there was little cooperation between trading partners to quarantine a major threat like that. Today it may look silly to take that road and even irresponsible, but one needs to make the distinction that we had not other better choices at the time that took place!

To say that US pigs ate as three times as much as the Haitian pigs is uneducated at best. Pigs eat what you feed them and as much as you want. The Haitian pigs were adept from years, decades of fending for themselves around the country; the piglets replicated the parents actions and did the same. US pigs were born to feeders and knew nothing else than to be fed as such. As proven today in Haiti, they adapted to the law of the land and act and consume just the same portions and from the same sources their gone predecessors did.


Then the US introduced its subsidized rice into the Haitian market. Within two years, the local rice industry had collapsed. Some report that those first shipments of US rice were accompanied by US guns but I have no academic reference for that.

Utter BS here! The US rice was introduced into Haiti via the USAID program, not the commercial way that goods are dumped into other countries. When the local industry responded by buying the aid rice and selling it for big profits to the locals, the US forced the Haitian gov to open the border to US rice to stop the industry from profiting and making the situation even worst for the majority of the Haitian poor which now had to buy even the US rice as well! The rice industry not only dared the US to enter the local market but promised to sell theirs under valued to the US to stop them. Guess who won that chicken race down the middle of the road?

During the OAS boycott of Haiti, after the faulty 2000 elections, the DR increased its egg production and flooded the Haitian market. Many say that the DR eggs were dumped in Haiti,,, i e sold for less than production price.

So within a couple of years, the local egg market collapsed.

Now Haiti is still holding the boycott on DR eggs which it put in after the bird flu scare a few years ago. It is not about the bird flu but an effort to help increase the local market.

(I think this is all for this morning!)

The DR never increased its production based on the Haitian prospects after the faulty 2000 elections! The DR local production became big enough to source the local market and beyond it. As local farms raced in competition to out sell the other, a new market opened up in Haiti as the local producers there failed to become competitive and remained as they were for decades. Once the price of stocks for feed and related raw materials imported by both the DR and Haiti shot up in prices, the Haitian producers were now faced with their own products becoming far more expensive and less competitive than eggs and chicken related goods that were imported by boat into Haiti as far away as Mexico.

The DR over supply of eggs and chicken found a market for their goods and that's how they came to become the largest suppliers for the goods in the Haitian market until the ban came into effect. Even now DR eggs and chickens are still more competitive than US, Canadian, Mexican and the whole Caribbean suppliers of the goods to the Haitian market since the ban took effect. The local powers in Haiti want to go back to controlling the goods in that country and make a killing in profits in the backs of the poor there.

Simply put: Status Quo...
 

PICHARDO

One Dominican at a time, please!
May 15, 2003
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40 years ago Haiti was in a better economic and military situation than the DR I remember that time I was going to elementary school and we Dominican was afraid of a Haitian invation by this time, I'm talking about the governement of Jeanclaud Dubalier.

JJ

I was here as well and that's when less well to do was Haiti's economy and military than ours my friend!

I guess you are a bit confused about the country you went to school at the time!

:squareeye