- Thread starter cibaenopuro
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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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Your anti-government stance is well-known-government in all it's forms seems to be the root of all evil in your eyes. My question to you is, does this preclude you from seeing the gray areas of this discussion or is it all just black or white?
As for government social engineering, I don't understand what you mean by this. If you mean people standing on some line expecting handouts, we already have something like this firmly entrenched-it's called lobbying, which exists for one reason only, the perpetuation of corporate welfare which I will argue has done more to erode our governmental process than any down-on-his-luck loser applying for medicaid.
Just like government in the DR is geared not towards solving problems but to perpetuate the pigs-at-the-trough mentality that is at the heart of DR politics.
Here is my point-I firmly believe that the best and brightest should not be dragged into the mud because the system caters to the mediocre.
My local elementary school has all the facilities and classrooms for special needs children, whether the disabilities are behavioral, cognitive or physical. But not one class for gifted children. That is a crime. The disciplinary statutes make it so that one child with behavior/attitude problems can literally hold an entire classroom hostage and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. That is another crime. Low income parents with bright children have to suffer these types of conditions with hardly any recourse whatsoever.
The legacy of a bad education can very well be a life of unfulfilled potential, for those who have potential. These are the types of burdens that can and should be ameliorated. An investment in those who show aptitude can go a long way for any country.
Case in point-
A few years ago the University of Texas hired it's first African American math department chairman. When he began there were a handful of black math majors, I believe the number was less than 10. When he left a few years later, that number rose to 114.
How did this happen? It wasn't by magic or Affirmative Action. It happened by breaking barriers. The math chairman broke up the Asian study hall cliques and integrated them. When other math students saw the Asian students struggling with the same problems they were, it broke that psychological wall that Asians were innately smarter at math than students of other races.
The black and latino math majors took confidence in this and began doing better themselves. This did not take any extra funds or a government mandate targeting the less fortunate for social and intellectual enrichment.
The breaking of these barriers sets a precedent for those who come after. No need for handouts or special treatment. And everybody wins.
I hope you see that I am in total agreement with you. I never said otherwise. But in lieu of the financial bailouts and the massive amounts of corporations who do business in this country who are exempt from federal taxes, who collect massive amounts of corporate welfare in the form of low or in many cases no interest loans and profit from all manner of pork legislation, your fixation on individual responsibility seems a little misplaced.
The government in the DR is a self-perpetuating den of entitlement. It exists as a money grab, nothing more. Which is why in 20 years the posters of DR1 will be talking about the same things-the bad roads, the traffic, the electrical problem, etc.
This stagnation of intellectual thought among it's leaders was evident when Leonel declared that he would not entertain the idea of holding presidential debates because he felt his opponents were not intellectually up to the task, or something to that effect.
Even the biggest "bruto" sitting in a colmado can articulate a semi-coherent sentence to defend himself. But apparently this skill is beyond the average DR politician, so they console themselves with engaging in political campaigns the old fashioned way-handing out salamis, bread and a few hundred pesos to the masses.
All of leading to the same thing-the same thieves sharing in the spoils of tax revenues that should be earmarked to move the country forward.
This type of intellectual and moral inbreeding is the major cause of the problems in both the DR and the US. It is the same interests at play and the same people looking after themselves and their clans. Where is the "individual responsibility" in that?
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I never claimed corporate welfare and bailouts were either good polcy-beyond gubmint guarantees-OR good examples of personal responsibility. Clearly all the debt that precluded the meltdown was the height of irresponsibility.
It's NOT there. That is my point. If each of us conduicted himself with the best possible responsibility we wouldn't be complaining about the failures of society and gubmints.Berzin said:
Gubmint reflects culture, and culture reflects the individuals. If you want to fix culture and guibmint, start with the individual. And offering excuses for failure is not where to start.
Let us take the case of Rafael Brito Reynoso, 27, who used to sell newspapers for El Nacional & Hoy. He gets shot in the leg, I think it fair to assume he didn't welcome this event with abundant joy, nor did he shoot himself. Dario Contreras Hospital removes the buckshot/bullet/whatever, stitches him up and sends him on his way. Trouble is, he is homeless. So where does his 'convalescence' take place? Click on the link then on agrandar below the photo
Pedig?e?o herido de bala se recupera debajo puente
Yes that's right. His convalescence quarters are lying on some cardboard under the bridge on Avenida 27 de Febrero esquina Leopoldo Navarro in SD.
Had he not been shot he could have continued begging, but someone else's action decommissioned him. Rafael's individual responsibility wouldn't appear to have much to do with this.
A civilised political economy would make some provision for decommissioned beggars shot not through their own fault.
Pedig?e?o herido de bala se recupera debajo puente
Yes that's right. His convalescence quarters are lying on some cardboard under the bridge on Avenida 27 de Febrero esquina Leopoldo Navarro in SD.
Had he not been shot he could have continued begging, but someone else's action decommissioned him. Rafael's individual responsibility wouldn't appear to have much to do with this.
A civilised political economy would make some provision for decommissioned beggars shot not through their own fault.
Getting back to personal resposibility, from the article that really leaves out a lot of info: Deplor? que sus padres Rafael Brito y Esmeralda F?lix Reynoso, fallecidos, quienes viv?an en Bonao ?nunca hicieron nada por m?, y vine a este mundo a pasar trabajo?. It seems he blames his parents for his station in life, and then his sister. Perhaps if he had taken more personal responsibility he wouldn't be begging for whiskey from people sitting outside a cafe. Of course he may be mentally ill or have some other problem that isn't explained in the article. I guess the question then becomes; are we our brother's keeper, and if so, to what extent.
Of course.
A civil society will chose an effective safety net, not mass hammocks. One can be responsible and have negative outcomes from no fault of their own. All socities should make allowances for those, not excuses.
There is a difference between a minimal yet effective gubmint and a Nanny State.
And the DR may be able to provide that safety net with continued economic development. Right now it's near the bottom tiers of the Maslowian rank. In general, charity comes from disposable income.
Personal responsibility is not a singular act. It may manifest itself in a singular act, but it is a way to live one's life. It should be a way of living passed from parents to children (like Mom CB giving me an iron and ironing board for my 12th birthday, and letting me know if I wanted my clothes to look decent I'd bet learn how to use it...:cheeky:...and it worked!)
I would sat the DR in general could use an infusion or societal personal responsibility DNA. Seems one of the greatest complaint many expats have of the DR...you included, Ginnie...is a lack of it.
When an individual becomes knowingly responsible for himself it creates a society of responsible citizens.
Individual excuses for a lifetime of failure is not the way to strengthen a culture. In fact, it is a barrier for cultural progress.
Originally Posted by Lambada
Had he not been shot he could have continued begging, but someone else's action decommissioned him. Rafael's individual responsibility wouldn't appear to have much to do with this.
I am sorry but this comment really bothers me!!!! He is begging on the streets when he gets shot!!!!!
How does personal responsibility figure into this??? HE IS BEGGING ON THE STREETS!!!!!!!!! Hello - not a paying job. Sucking off society is what that is.
I don't give handouts!!!! You want money work for it! Wash my car, clean my floors, clean my shoes, do my errands and I will PAY you for WORK......
Had he not been shot he could have continued begging, but someone else's action decommissioned him. Rafael's individual responsibility wouldn't appear to have much to do with this.
I am sorry but this comment really bothers me!!!! He is begging on the streets when he gets shot!!!!!
How does personal responsibility figure into this??? HE IS BEGGING ON THE STREETS!!!!!!!!! Hello - not a paying job. Sucking off society is what that is.
I don't give handouts!!!! You want money work for it! Wash my car, clean my floors, clean my shoes, do my errands and I will PAY you for WORK......
We are coming from slightly different perspectives on this one, DMV123. And that's fine, we're both entitled to our different viewpoints. The reality is, there are many people begging on the streets. I do not know the case of the man in the El Nacional article, but it seems to me that whilst he could probably have worked before before getting shot, it might not be so easy for him right now...he might be unable to walk.
I have some experience in Puerto Plata of voluntary work with some guys in similar circumstances (mainly older people and some handicapped). I take the time to find out about their backgrounds & how they arrived at where they are. Where I think there is potential, I have helped some to find work. Sometimes I have put a cheap roof over their heads for 3 months so that they can get cleaned up & find their own jobs. There have been both successes and failures. They know the cheap roof is time limited (it costs me under RD$4000 to get them a room in a rooming house for 3 months) - if they haven't achieved a job after that time period, it's back to the streets. What I am trying to do is to provide an opportunity - if they choose not to take it, that's up to them.
Of course, you will encounter the 'reasons' why it didn't work out - you have to be able to read these. Some of these guys are ex-addicts, so plausible 'reasons' would be expected & old habits die hard. Sometimes it does work out but for a limited period as yet another setback appears.
It is time consuming, doing this, so it can only be for limited numbers. I have noticed that there is no rancour when the roof is removed - they knew the terms - and the relationship will continue.
So, yes, I agree that people should work if possible (& it isn't always). But until I know the circumstances, I'm in no position to make judgements. What I am very aware of is that many of these circumstances are not black and white, but all shades of grey. And I'm aslo acutely aware that for some of these people there should be state provision. And there isn't.
I have some experience in Puerto Plata of voluntary work with some guys in similar circumstances (mainly older people and some handicapped). I take the time to find out about their backgrounds & how they arrived at where they are. Where I think there is potential, I have helped some to find work. Sometimes I have put a cheap roof over their heads for 3 months so that they can get cleaned up & find their own jobs. There have been both successes and failures. They know the cheap roof is time limited (it costs me under RD$4000 to get them a room in a rooming house for 3 months) - if they haven't achieved a job after that time period, it's back to the streets. What I am trying to do is to provide an opportunity - if they choose not to take it, that's up to them.
Of course, you will encounter the 'reasons' why it didn't work out - you have to be able to read these. Some of these guys are ex-addicts, so plausible 'reasons' would be expected & old habits die hard. Sometimes it does work out but for a limited period as yet another setback appears.
It is time consuming, doing this, so it can only be for limited numbers. I have noticed that there is no rancour when the roof is removed - they knew the terms - and the relationship will continue.
So, yes, I agree that people should work if possible (& it isn't always). But until I know the circumstances, I'm in no position to make judgements. What I am very aware of is that many of these circumstances are not black and white, but all shades of grey. And I'm aslo acutely aware that for some of these people there should be state provision. And there isn't.
Yes with the majority at these figures its unlikely to be considered a serious developing country in transition...How to get back on the right track?? who knows, maybe more money and emphasis on Education, and higher technology and skill training. Maybe a serious effort to combat misspending in the Government, and put this into social systems, and clean the streets, parks, and fix the roads..This may bring back some element of pride. It sickens me to see a car drive buy and throw a full bag of garbage out the window, especially in a nice area....DR could take a lesson of India who have a strong focus on educating their young, even Costa Rica who did way of the military.
We don't need no education.
The money is there.
Never have I seen more luxury cars in a capital (of a third world country) than in SD.
$$$$$$$$$ are spent on posh apartments, land speculation and luxurious mansions.
Or on a Metro....
At times money exchanges only reluctantly exchanged my cheques, too many $$$$ at the moment they said....
A lot of that money was syphoned off from public funds or stems from drug activities.
But also Don Campesino with eight children (three women) spends his meagre earnings on bling bling, cervezas and under age muchachas...
Yes, education, education, education...
But then the other day I saw a group of teachers gossipping in the school yard. Next to them a young boy urinating proudly in front of some girls.
None of the teachers intervened.
Tell me how things could be changed.
donP
The money is there.
Never have I seen more luxury cars in a capital (of a third world country) than in SD.
$$$$$$$$$ are spent on posh apartments, land speculation and luxurious mansions.
Or on a Metro....
At times money exchanges only reluctantly exchanged my cheques, too many $$$$ at the moment they said....
A lot of that money was syphoned off from public funds or stems from drug activities.
But also Don Campesino with eight children (three women) spends his meagre earnings on bling bling, cervezas and under age muchachas...
Yes, education, education, education...
But then the other day I saw a group of teachers gossipping in the school yard. Next to them a young boy urinating proudly in front of some girls.
None of the teachers intervened.
Tell me how things could be changed.
donP
donP I believe change happens one person at a time. There was a program some time ago to teach young kids about littering. I've read where behavior change takes 2 generations and starts with the kids.
Some things here have been accepted for so long that it will be hard to change. I watch the garbage coming out of that $50,000 jeepeta and I get so ****ed at them When someone I am with throws garbage on the street or in a yard - I stop - make them pick it up and dispose of it properly. I don't take no for an answer.
If all of us did a little bit then it would help
It certainly is NOT the full answer. There needs to be political will to change things - for now there is no real political will.
Some things here have been accepted for so long that it will be hard to change. I watch the garbage coming out of that $50,000 jeepeta and I get so ****ed at them When someone I am with throws garbage on the street or in a yard - I stop - make them pick it up and dispose of it properly. I don't take no for an answer.
If all of us did a little bit then it would help
It certainly is NOT the full answer. There needs to be political will to change things - for now there is no real political will.
Dominican people like to keep cars clean inside, reason for what we buy cars with magical "dumpsite" windows. Here in US is different most the cars are "trashcan" inside as people drive and eat and keep the trash in the vehicles.
I was parking cars in by the court house in the downtown and I drove the nastiest cars I have ever seen in my life. I don't understand how theses people don't get sick.
JJ
I was parking cars in by the court house in the downtown and I drove the nastiest cars I have ever seen in my life. I don't understand how theses people don't get sick.
JJ
My feelings exactly. Sitting back and debating won't accomplish anything. We cannot change the powers that be.
However, change begins one person at a time. If each of us did something...one thing....whatever that may be.....send one person to school, tutor one person, volunteer one day to pick up garbage, buy beans and rice once a week for a destitute family, volunteer once a week with an ngo or a mission, buy the shoe shine boy a lunch, clean out your closet and give clothes to the poor, or simply show kindness and respect to the indigent when you see them or pass them on the street.....the power of one kind deed multiplied by many CAN change the Dominican Republic AND the world.
Yes, there ARE many dr1'ers who do these things on a regular basis. Unfortunately, they are often not the ones to post on threads like this, as they are busy making a difference with actions instead of taking time with talk.
There are many people silently working on the ground for change in the DR. My hope is that all this debate about the poor will not turn the good folks away and create the wrong image of what really goes on here with ex-pats.
Lindsey
don campesino? that's insulting. both of my grandfathers were campesinos and they were hard-working, honorable family men. what you are describing is dominican yorks from the project
come to sajoma and see how many bling-bling wearing tigueres you see in el campo
Different Planet?
With Don Campesino I refer to rural people who have sold some or all of their land and then behave in the manner I described.
Come here and I'll show them to you....
donP
It isn't and it was not meant to be.
With Don Campesino I refer to rural people who have sold some or all of their land and then behave in the manner I described.
Come here and I'll show them to you....
I know that San Jos? de las Matas is different...
donP
The world is not static, this is especially true in the DR.Africaida said:
A mere 40 years ago 80% of Dominicans were poor, half of the country lived in abject poverty, the middle class was very tiny composed mostly of government workers and military families, and the rich were not that rich.
40 years later, the middle class has mushroomed and is created mostly in the private sector, the rich have also mushroomed and are now richer, and the poor have decreased substantially, especially those in abject poverty. This is why the country is now nearly split in half between the haves and haves more vs. the have not and the never had anything.
If recently history is a sign of things to come, even if nothing changes in the way the DR works, the poor will continue to decrease as more and more Dominicans become middle class.
In 1960 the DR was the third poorest country in the Americas and poorest Spanish-speaking country in the world, today its better off than most developing countries on earth and its in the middle stratum among American countries.
With all of this in mind, what makes you think that nothing is being done to change things? Things have been continuously changing for almost half a century now and they are very obvious and clear.
To understand how much the DR changes in short periods of time, try to understand this reality: as recent as the early 1980s, if a Dominican wanted to see what a Haitian looked like, he either went to a Batey or to the border region, otherwise it would had been extremely hard to know what a Haitian looked like since there were no Haitians to be seen in most of the country, whether the setting was rural or urban. Today Haitians are everywhere in large numbers that the notion of a Dominican wondering what a Haitian looks like is almost laughable, if not sad.
Take things within their context to fully understand the bigger picture.
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i agree with Nals that the middle class will continue to rise. for example, my parent's families were used to be poor campesinos from the campos of the santiago province when they were growing up, but now most people in my (direct) family are college graduates or are attending college and we now live in the city.
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