57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[Robert]

This is how the poor live in the campo. The child and younger couple live in Jarabacoa, but Grandma lives high up in the mountains. Poverty is everywhere in the DR and it is in every country in the world. Who is worse off, the poverty stricked in an affluent society, or those in a poor country.

The difference I see...

Many in the DR are poor in the pocket, but not in the head.
They smile, enjoy life, family centered, they live etc.

As opposed to those I have seen in "affluent" societies that have a poor midset and this mindset permeates just about every area of their life.

 

[DMV123]

Absolutely well said Robert.

 

[cobraboy]

The difference I see...

Many in the DR are poor in the pocket, but not in the head.
They smile, enjoy life, family centered, they live etc.

As opposed to those I have seen in "affluent" societies that have a poor midset and this mindset permeates just about every area of their life.

^^^Get's it.^^^

 

[NALs]

Yes NALS it is my perception but it is one which comes from Puerto Plata not Connecticut. I'm not arguing that there isn't more wealth around, I think there probably is. What I think is happening is that the distribution of that wealth is not improving.

Quite interesting perception considering that, for example, I have an uncle that (hint: you eventually became a neighbor of) has been living in Puerto Plata since 1979 and in all the discussions we've had, your perception never quite matches his.

And then there is what I've seen and studied, and somehow it doesn't really match your perception either.

And then there is the CEPAL studies based on periodic household surveys:

Income Inequality in Central America, the Dominican Republic and Mexico: Assessing the importance of individual and household characteristics

And not only does it not match your perception, it also contradicts it.

Hmm, let's see now:

1992: 0.59
2002:0.55

In 2004 the Gini index was at 0.52 and the latest one (2007) was at 0.50.

Right Lambada, inequality is increasing. Riiiight. Maybe socialism would fix it? Ha ha.

These are the types of conversations that makes me glad I chose economics as my major when I was in college. It really helps to put things into perspective, and in separating fact from bs. :cheeky:

 

[cobraboy]

Right Lambada, inequality is increasing. Riiiight. Maybe socialism would fix it? Ha ha.

Hey, it's working in Venezuela!

 

[Frank the Tank]

One thing that I have noticed that is missing from this discussion is how poverty is defined. Depending on how poverty is determined, the numbers of people in it can vary wildly. Is poverty just based on income? Is it income plus material possessions like refrigerators, tvs, and other household goods?

 

[bachata]

I like this phase.

Rico no es el que mas tiene, sino el que menos necesita.

Maybe someone can find the right translation into English.

JJ

 

[bob saunders]

Hey, it's working in Venezuela!

VENEZUELA HAS SPENT MILLIONS ON TRYING TO LOWER THE POVERTY RATE WITH LITTLE SUCCESS. They are not alone at this failure. http://www.ruralpovertyportal.org/web/guest/country/home/tags/venezuela

 

[dv8]

The difference I see...
Many in the DR are poor in the pocket, but not in the head.
They smile, enjoy life, family centered, they live etc.
As opposed to those I have seen in "affluent" societies that have a poor midset and this mindset permeates just about every area of their life.

i would debate that. the difference is that poor in DR know they cannot count on the government or any other means of help. they "enjoy life" because there is nothing to do, no hope for tomorrow, not much of tomorrow at all, in fact.
poor in developed countries are often parasites and the lowest low of the society who feed on government benefits and cheat their way to money. they demand things, without putting any work or effort into their lives.
both have poor mindset that tells them their situation is going to change that nothing is worth doing.

 

[MikeFisher]

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by Robert
The difference I see...
Many in the DR are poor in the pocket, but not in the head.
They smile, enjoy life, family centered, they live etc.
As opposed to those I have seen in "affluent" societies that have a poor midset and this mindset permeates just about every area of their life.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

i would debate that. the difference is that poor in DR know they cannot count on the government or any other means of help. they "enjoy life" because there is nothing to do, no hope for tomorrow, not much of tomorrow at all, in fact.
poor in developed countries are often parasites and the lowest low of the society who feed on government benefits and cheat their way to money. they demand things, without putting any work or effort into their lives.
both have poor mindset that tells them their situation is going to change that nothing is worth doing.

i am on Robert's side on this one.
the low level in the affluent country can often not count on much from the gubmint either, maybe some basics for food, but he most likely never see a posibility to come out of his low again, left alone, pushing a shopping cart in a mayor northamerican or european city, society's assistance for him is once in a while a soup at the red cross kittchen and in coldest winter nights may be a bed in a shelter.
the one on the low side of a poor country has more likely still family who shares food and within his barrio he may gather a job once in a while for smallest earnings, the streets/barrios/family help here often much more than the gubmints of other societies do. so he lives more likely the happier low side of life than the big bro, here he will get a tragito when passing in front of the house of a birthdayparty etc in the barrio, anda meal, over there those 'neighbours' would just call the Cops to get him out there.
Mike

 

[MikeFisher]

an Harz4 receiver in germany may receive from the gubmint 400 euros a month and even get some small amounts of assistance on top of that, but you will seldom find them walking the streets with a smile on the face, those euros don't buy him/her any more than the non gubmint assited guy/gal get's over here when wandering the streets.
Mike

 

[Robert]

i would debate that. the difference is that poor in DR know they cannot count on the government or any other means of help. they "enjoy life" because there is nothing to do, no hope for tomorrow, not much of tomorrow at all...

Do you think the photo of the family in Jarabacoa posted by bob saunders reflects a family of no hope, nothing to do etc? They appear pretty content to me and I'm sure are kept busy, one way of the other. Of course I could be totally wrong, but based on my overall experience of chatting with people here, I would disagree with your opinion.

 

[Lambada]

Rico no es el que mas tiene, sino el que menos necesita.

Maybe someone can find the right translation into English.

JJ

A rich guy isn't one who has more but one who needs less. Very good JJ, it's germane to this whole discussion.

NALS the Gini co-efficient , as I understand it, is a measure of income inequality not wealth inequality. Income inequality, whilst useful to measure, doesn't give a complete picture. It doesn't include for example, equality/inequality of opportunity. If a country has a social structure which present barriers to upward mobility; this is not reflected in its Gini coefficient. Similarly the Gini Index will reflect the income inequality across the entire country and not the actual inequality experienced by residents of each region. Nor by those people over their lifetimes.

Countries can have the same Gini coefficient but have entirely dissimilar levels of prosperity. I would guess that those countries with a large informal or underground economy (if you get my drift) are likely to end up with distortions in their Gini co-efficients.

I'm sure greater minds than mine have examined the limitations of using this measurement to illustrate what I was posting about above.

Robert, I certainly agree that people can be poor of pocket but rich in spirit. I used to subscribe to the 'poor but happy' theory. I did for about the first 12 years I lived here. Then slowly it dawned on me that for people to have enough trust that I wouldn't see them as trying to tap me for help, takes years and years here. Those who are poor but proud have no wish to be seen as trying to take advantage in any way whatsoever (clearly I'm not talking about the people many tourists encounter). So the barrier to me grasping the point wasn't language as much as them having enough confidence in me as a person to really share their hopes and frustrations in a way I wouldn't see as a request.

You can learn all about a stranger's marriage on the 3.5 hour Metro journey to SD but to hear the things that really require trust takes a lot longer than I had ever thought.

 

[AZB]

You can learn all about a stranger's marriage on the 3.5 hour Metro journey to SD but to hear the things that really require trust takes a lot longer than I had ever thought.

I agree but there is an easier way to this.
Try giving a policeman or a soldier a lift (bola) from toll booth of santo domingo to near santiago. Let him talk and poke loaded questions at him. Boy o boy, you will get a glimpse of real life in barrio that you can't even imagine. Of course they will not touch a few subjects when talking to foreign women but a conversation among men could be suitable for a movie script.
AZB

 

[DMV123]

It is true - there are so many pieces to this discussion for which likely none of us is able to talk with authority. All we have are our personal experiences filtered by our own wants and needs.

Every single day I am here I learn something new and I UNLEARN something I thought to be true. As foreigners we see a piece of things and the longer we are here the bigger the piece becomes!

Poor but happy, poor and proud, rich and happy, rich and proud........I know which combination I pick!!!! And I am pretty sure I know which combination the poor would like............But hey you never know I am only an expat....

 

[donP]

Hartz4 in Paradise?

an Harz4 receiver in germany may receive from the gubmint 400 euros a month and even get some small amounts of assistance on top of that, but you will seldom find them walking the streets with a smile on the face, those euros don't buy him/her any more than the non gubmint assited guy/gal get's over here when wandering the streets.

1. Hartz4 recipients also get allowances for "adequate housing" on top of their 359 Euro basic help.
2. Hartz4 recipients also get between 217 and 287 Euro for their children depending on age.
3. Hartz4 recipients also get 323 Euro for an adult partner.
So, a typical (?) Dominican with 3 (?) children would get about 70,000 RD$/month.....

Whether this puts a smile on German faces I do not know.
Offer this monthly help to Dominicans and a mass exodus would set in.
Mind you you get the Hartz4 money for NOT working.....

donP

 

[DMV123]

headline from Dominican Today:

Dominican Republic is weak in health, education, UN study

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/lo...Republic-is-weak-in-health-education-UN-study

 

[cobraboy]

headline from Dominican Today:

Dominican Republic is weak in health, education, UN study

http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/lo...Republic-is-weak-in-health-education-UN-study

What a shocker: the UN complaining there isn't more of the kind of socialism they'd like to see in the DR.

 

[AZB]

The bottom line is the same: the go-getters get all they can earn and the laid-back, slackers get the crumbs which are left behind by the hustlers. yes, there are some people who need help and when these people do get a break, they capitalize on the opportunity. I am simply blaming the slackers who wait for a hand out; so it seems there isn't a shortage of this here. examples are all over in the resort areas, sankie young women with older guys, street tigres (sankies) with white women. These people are simply living off the other person and even take their family for a free ride as well. I will never defend the beggars and hookers who simply want the money handed to them. These girls have similar stories: don't worry about education but they are the first to get pregnant by anyone and usually the first to carry a iphone 3gs which gets pawned anyway in the end. Some of the expats who defend the poor and the desperate are the same folks who exploit them. They are the ones who pay them to sleep with them, flash them cash to direct them to the bed for easy hand out. Then you have the same people come here and try to give me a lecture on social inequality. Yeah, as if I am blind and I don't know what goes on between you guys and the barrios. You expats sure don't mix with barrio people in an attempt to convert them to become born again Christians. hahaha. These guys are part of the problem and not the solution. So please, save this racial inequality BS for someone else. The poor people should get up from their a$$es and make an example. Do not sit around so you can end up as victims on TV.
For now, I will not worry about the 57% poor or 80% poor, I will concentrate on the people who pay my bills and people whom I can relate to. I have done my share of feeding the poor for more than 10 yrs in this country. Where did it get me? I almost went broke. So thanks, the poor can kiss my a$$.
AZB

 

[Lambada]

Every single day I am here I learn something new and I UNLEARN something I thought to be true.

I don't know how long you have been here but that is still happening to me, nearly 18 years on.

The study you mentioned is an important one and there is a more detailed write-up in Diario Libre in English. The presentation was by Miguel Ceara-Hatton, the Dominican economist and co-ordinator of the Office of Human Development.

'A diagnosis presented yesterday by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) placed the Dominican Republic far from its goals of improvement in the areas of education and health, as well as in obtaining better levels of equality in the population and reducing poverty.

The study-carried out at the request of the Minister of Economy, Planning and Development, Temistocles Montas-indicates in a general way the little progress being made in bettering the quality of life for Dominicans, the weakness of the social policies, and an economic growth that generate social exclusion.' (emboldening mine)

UNDP report shows social exclusion in DR

Try giving a policeman or a soldier a lift (bola) from toll booth of santo domingo to near santiago.

I don't give lifts to guys in uniform, certainly not police, unless I know them personally. Too big a risk that they might not be what they appear to be.