See what you are missing out on? hehehehe
I didn't think you would, this is why you have me to tell you the stories.
AZB
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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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I didn't think you would, this is why you have me to tell you the stories.
AZB
I would agree that there are some social barriers to upward mobility in the DR, but none so great that they can't be overcome by a determined person with some intellect. The education system lacks flexibility to ensure that those that are not academically inclined...ie University, have a full range of vocational/trade related options.
I yet to meet a poor person that doesn't want more material comfort than they have; security of income, shelter, and food. My Spanish is not so great that I can have a HEART TO HEART conversation with those poor Dominicans that I know but my wife knows the personal histories of literally hundreds of families in the Jarabacoa area. She know who were poor and no longer are, and a great deal of the circumstances behind their rise or fall in personal wealth.
i meant that comparison to show that we can not just look on $$$ numbers, or euros or pesos.
while some in germany sure know the tricks to be fine with those receipts, most of that crowd is struggling and has not much of visions to believe in any bettering of live. if you need to survive in germany with as little as 800-1000 euros per month you will not buy much. a Dominican man on DR countryside buys with just 5000 pesos per month more than a german could get with 800 or 1000 euros.
right,
harz4 is without working,
the harz4 recipients are not even allowed to work, b/c all earned money get's deducted from their next harz4 receipt, not going into the single details like the 1 euro jobs etc etc, i luckily never been in that crowd so i do not have the detailed info about it.
but the point been:
in the DR a poor with much less in the pocket is most likely living a happier life/more smiles on the face, than a poor with several times of that amount in the pocket in a higher standard country would be.
cheers
Mike
Missing Info
But as this may not be of interest to other members I sent you a PM with the information needed.
donP
False.
But as this may not be of interest to other members I sent you a PM with the information needed.
donP
caution: contains philosphy
again i would like to politely disagree. looks like i did not explain myself fully so there:
i do believe those people have no future to speak of and they do not think about tomorrow. they live permanently in the world of "today". neighbours and family will help them organize some food, great, they eat. what will they eat tomorrow? what tomorrow? they are full now, who cares?
a woman gets preggers? a blessing, gracias a dios. what will she feed the baby? what baby? there is no baby today, is there? there is no baby now, so why worry?
i think many poor in here live in a state of denial of the future, denial of the outcome of their action, denial of any cause-result relationship. are they happy? they certainly do smile.
i do not know. maybe i learnt to expect more from life than what i have now. i anticipate future, i look forward to it. maybe i just do not believe in this "poor but happy" bs? as if one could not possibly be happy when rich?
i am tired of dr1ers always defending the poor, protecting the poor, putting the poor on a pedestal of of high morality and godliness. poverty is ugly. say it with me: POVERTY IS UGLY.
again i would like to politely disagree. looks like i did not explain myself fully so there:
i do believe those people have no future to speak of and they do not think about tomorrow. they live permanently in the world of "today". neighbours and family will help them organize some food, great, they eat. what will they eat tomorrow? what tomorrow? they are full now, who cares?
a woman gets preggers? a blessing, gracias a dios. what will she feed the baby? what baby? there is no baby today, is there? there is no baby now, so why worry?
i think many poor in here live in a state of denial of the future, denial of the outcome of their action, denial of any cause-result relationship. are they happy? they certainly do smile.
i do not know. maybe i learnt to expect more from life than what i have now. i anticipate future, i look forward to it. maybe i just do not believe in this "poor but happy" bs? as if one could not possibly be happy when rich?
i am tired of dr1ers always defending the poor, protecting the poor, putting the poor on a pedestal of of high morality and godliness. poverty is ugly. say it with me: POVERTY IS UGLY.
Poverty by itself is not ugly, it is the begging, not doing anything to get out, complaining and playing the victim - that what is ugly. There are poor people who have not lost their sense of self, dignity and self respect, who actually are trying to work and support themselves.
Wealth can be ugly too. According to statistical data, there are more people with mental and psychological problems living in Hollywood than anywhere else in the world.
Wealth can be ugly too. According to statistical data, there are more people with mental and psychological problems living in Hollywood than anywhere else in the world.
a public school teacher who makes about 300 USD a month only works 4 hours a day. I'd say, by dominican standards, that's not so bad. Because if that person were working an 8 hour work day, they'd make more than double that (they only take your discounts out of one tanda)...
Just can't win with the politically correct people. Let me tell you from experience working as a chiropractor since 1998 full time. I have seen more misery and textbook classical cases of all sorts of disorder (more so) in poor than in rich. The rick a generally blessed with better health because they are not generally exposed to health hazardous condition and seems like they marry other people who are just as healthy and fit. The poor people have all sorts of problems, from spinal disorders of all sorts to even congenital anomalies. I was shocked to see so many textbook cases in one month alone (puerto plata) than I would ever see in usa, not even in 10 yrs of working full time. The rich seem to get proper medical attention yet the poor simply die at home and disappear like falling leaves.
There is nothing pretty about being poor. I am also from a family where the father was the only provider and we were 7 kids. father only earned so much and we lived very simple, even in New york. My cousins were driven around in nice cars yet we took buses and trains. We never had good clothes to wear or even good food to eat. We were always under the inferiority complex. We were not meant to advance forward financially. As little as we had, my parents made sure we would go to school and get good education. They pushed us forward with their support and their prayers. I knew I had to become equal or better than my cousins in order to gain respect. I hated being poor and without toys or anything. The rich families in my family were always treated with respect and honor, while we were always treated as extras on a movie set.
Thanks god, with proper education and dedication we are all standing on good financial platforms. We all have respect in our social circle our family has become sort of a role model for other pakistani families.
This all come from action, not from sitting and doing nothing and blaming the problems on other factors or hiding behind BS facts that are invented by me to make my people look good.
AZB
funny how supposedly the poorer people and barrio people claim they don't have money from monday through thursday yet friday, saturday,and sunday comes around the whole barrio and poorer sector are drinking alcohol and going out to bars, discos, carwashes,etc. to hang out have a good time guess what this takes money!!!! its the mentality and priority's of the poorer majority that needs to be questioned and scrutinized.
how is it that the poorer majority claim to have no money available monday through thursday to pay for food, rent, utilities, child expenses,etc. yet on the weekends these same people have money to buy beer after beer, go out clubbing, go to carwashes or caberets to have a great time and all these social activities do cost money unless if they leach off an expat, newcomer, or foreigner!!!
So there are expats posting about social inequality on this thread who also exploit prostitutes? I look at the names of the expat posters: Mike Fisher, cobraboy, Robert, donP, and somehow I can't see that. Maybe you mean dv8, LindseyKaufman or me?
What a ridiculous, unsubstantiated statement.Back to some substantive material on social inequality: the report referred to above is in 3 volumes and currently I have only found it in Spanish. Previous reports were later translated to English - I don't know whether this one will be or not.
Volumen I: Marco te?rico; La pol?tica social: capacidades y derechos; Educaci?n; Salud.
Volumen II: Empleo; Seguridad social y asistencia social; Asentamientos humanos.
Volumen III: Justicia y derechos; Inmigraci?n haitiana; Cohesi?n social; Hacia una pol?tica social basada en derechos.
I've only got as far as P 57 of Volume 1 but there is some really interesting stuff on the drawbacks of social policy implementation based on relationships rather than rights.
first: i do not claim that rich equals happy. i just want to show that poor does not equal happy. nor dignified. but i think that money does increase happiness.
following AZB's example: would anyone here prefer to be sick and poor (and therefore oh so happy and gosh how dignified)? or would you prefer to be sick and rich? and no, do not give me a bs that money matter not in the face of the cancer because it does. rich receive better medical care, they can pay for expensive treatments, they can pay for reconstructive surgery, for medical services in most advanced hospitals all over the world.
do you know that seguro in DR does not cover chemo and radiotherapy? (most of companies on most of plans). if one is rich one can fight to the end. if one is poor - one is better of dead.
again, like AZB i come from rather poor family. my parents worked hard since childhood (they were both born to farmers). and like AZB i grew up hating being poor. my dream as a kid was to eat a whole banana/orange because i always had to share. but hell, how we grinned when having our pictures taken! but in reality my parents struggled.
please, do not get me wrong here, i do not say that rich are better class of people and poor are worthless. i just do not understand this idolization of the poor. there is nothing fantastic about having no money, believe me. in the times of my personal financial down, as an adult, i walked everywhere because i could not afford a bus. i ate bread with economy cheese for breakfast and economy pasta with economy cheese and economy ketchup for lunch. there was nothing coll about that. and sure as hell i was NOT happy
DR, as countries go is not so bad. true, the government does not help the poor but thanks god for that. can you imagine what would happen if the government offered unemployment benefits and benefits for single mothers? this country would be bankrupt within a day!
there are plenty of opportunities for the poor to advance through hard work and education. but truth be told - there is no encouragement form the government, no emphasis on the value of education.
following AZB's example: would anyone here prefer to be sick and poor (and therefore oh so happy and gosh how dignified)? or would you prefer to be sick and rich? and no, do not give me a bs that money matter not in the face of the cancer because it does. rich receive better medical care, they can pay for expensive treatments, they can pay for reconstructive surgery, for medical services in most advanced hospitals all over the world.
do you know that seguro in DR does not cover chemo and radiotherapy? (most of companies on most of plans). if one is rich one can fight to the end. if one is poor - one is better of dead.
again, like AZB i come from rather poor family. my parents worked hard since childhood (they were both born to farmers). and like AZB i grew up hating being poor. my dream as a kid was to eat a whole banana/orange because i always had to share. but hell, how we grinned when having our pictures taken! but in reality my parents struggled.
please, do not get me wrong here, i do not say that rich are better class of people and poor are worthless. i just do not understand this idolization of the poor. there is nothing fantastic about having no money, believe me. in the times of my personal financial down, as an adult, i walked everywhere because i could not afford a bus. i ate bread with economy cheese for breakfast and economy pasta with economy cheese and economy ketchup for lunch. there was nothing coll about that. and sure as hell i was NOT happy
DR, as countries go is not so bad. true, the government does not help the poor but thanks god for that. can you imagine what would happen if the government offered unemployment benefits and benefits for single mothers? this country would be bankrupt within a day!
there are plenty of opportunities for the poor to advance through hard work and education. but truth be told - there is no encouragement form the government, no emphasis on the value of education.
At several points, this thread had touched on happiness as it relates to wealth. Happiness studies conducted internationally as well as in the U.S. (If you wish information about the specific studies, PM me and I will provide the references) indicate the following
• Although people in very poor nations are not as happy as those in wealthier countries, this disparity vanishes once a country has achieved a relatively modest GNP.
• Research between salary and happiness found the same type of pattern. Even those on the Forbes 100 list of wealthiest people are only slightly happier than the average American.
• Overall, when people can afford the necessities in life, an average or above average income does not result in a significantly happier life.
• Overall, 50 percent of happiness is found to be genetically determined and cannot be altered.
• 10 percent of happiness is attributable to general circumstances, such as education level, income, marital status, etc.
• 40 percent is derived from day to day behavior and the way you think about yourself and others.
• “Retail therapy” ….spending money does not bring about happiness…..unless you are buying for someone else or making donations.
And to apply the construct to ourselves, what does make greater happiness? Studies show that keeping gratitude journals increases happiness, as does smiling, sitting up and having good posture, and simply acting happy.
I am no research scientist. All this information is available, with a wealth of other fascinating stuff, in a book by Richard Wiseman called 59 Seconds: Think a Little Change a Lot. And everything he writes is footnoted with corresponding scientific studies.
Sorry for such a long post, but I though that if we are talking about money and happiness, we should have researched based facts.
Lindsey
• Although people in very poor nations are not as happy as those in wealthier countries, this disparity vanishes once a country has achieved a relatively modest GNP.
• Research between salary and happiness found the same type of pattern. Even those on the Forbes 100 list of wealthiest people are only slightly happier than the average American.
• Overall, when people can afford the necessities in life, an average or above average income does not result in a significantly happier life.
• Overall, 50 percent of happiness is found to be genetically determined and cannot be altered.
• 10 percent of happiness is attributable to general circumstances, such as education level, income, marital status, etc.
• 40 percent is derived from day to day behavior and the way you think about yourself and others.
• “Retail therapy” ….spending money does not bring about happiness…..unless you are buying for someone else or making donations.
And to apply the construct to ourselves, what does make greater happiness? Studies show that keeping gratitude journals increases happiness, as does smiling, sitting up and having good posture, and simply acting happy.
I am no research scientist. All this information is available, with a wealth of other fascinating stuff, in a book by Richard Wiseman called 59 Seconds: Think a Little Change a Lot. And everything he writes is footnoted with corresponding scientific studies.
Sorry for such a long post, but I though that if we are talking about money and happiness, we should have researched based facts.
Lindsey
I'm aware of that, but progress or the lack of has to be measured with something and the Gini is one of them. That the gini has improved is a sign of things improving, even if it may not go along with some people's ideologies.
maybe we should look at the definition of "being poor" in relation to the country where you live at...
In the US there are supposedly very few "poor", because the majority calls itself middle class... the fact that they cannot afford the payments on their cars or house, they cannot pay the utility-bills, they do not have health-insurance, etc... does not come into consideration... But for me those people are poor, and worse of than many of the poor here...
In Western-Europe, officially, 25% of the people live below the poverty-level, at this moment, meaning they cannot pay their regular bills, or loans, are living on wellfare, etc... This is the official figure, and I can tell you the real figure is a lot higher. A lot of the elderly cannot afford to live on their pensions, and have to tuck into their savings every month, or sell their house, and hope they do not live long enough to start living in real poverty...
A huge amount of families are living on the verge of property, and if one of the couple loses his or her job, they dive right into it...
So, what is the difference of being poor over here or over there?...
Here family and friends will help you, gladly... and the only return they ask, is that you will help them if they need it... In the first world this is more the exception than the rule...
Here, if you have no money, they will give you credit at the colmado... you just have to make sure you pay it back in the time you promised... In the first world no money, no credit at the supermarket, and no food...
If you are old and in need of help here, the family will do all they can... in the first world they have to fend for themselves...
Here you can do an odd job left and right (like some painting or cutting the lawn... In Western Europe, more likely than not, some tax-officer will stop and question you to see whether you are doing this job officially or not...
And yes... here they a couple of beers in the weekend, and have an enormous amount of fun... in the first world they spend 50 times the amount and have less fun...
It is no fun to be poor anywhere... and I certainly agree about medical care...
but somehow, due to the culture, I would prefer to be poor here... I just hope never to experience that...
In the US there are supposedly very few "poor", because the majority calls itself middle class... the fact that they cannot afford the payments on their cars or house, they cannot pay the utility-bills, they do not have health-insurance, etc... does not come into consideration... But for me those people are poor, and worse of than many of the poor here...
In Western-Europe, officially, 25% of the people live below the poverty-level, at this moment, meaning they cannot pay their regular bills, or loans, are living on wellfare, etc... This is the official figure, and I can tell you the real figure is a lot higher. A lot of the elderly cannot afford to live on their pensions, and have to tuck into their savings every month, or sell their house, and hope they do not live long enough to start living in real poverty...
A huge amount of families are living on the verge of property, and if one of the couple loses his or her job, they dive right into it...
So, what is the difference of being poor over here or over there?...
Here family and friends will help you, gladly... and the only return they ask, is that you will help them if they need it... In the first world this is more the exception than the rule...
Here, if you have no money, they will give you credit at the colmado... you just have to make sure you pay it back in the time you promised... In the first world no money, no credit at the supermarket, and no food...
If you are old and in need of help here, the family will do all they can... in the first world they have to fend for themselves...
Here you can do an odd job left and right (like some painting or cutting the lawn... In Western Europe, more likely than not, some tax-officer will stop and question you to see whether you are doing this job officially or not...
And yes... here they a couple of beers in the weekend, and have an enormous amount of fun... in the first world they spend 50 times the amount and have less fun...
It is no fun to be poor anywhere... and I certainly agree about medical care...
but somehow, due to the culture, I would prefer to be poor here... I just hope never to experience that...
That report, as almost all other UN reports on the DR, is one large posi-neg argument.
You are doing well, keep up the good work, just try to do a little better next time. That's the basic message, because the DR didn't meet many of its goals despite the improvements.
It did mentioned things for the DR such as:
Life expectancy 1960:53.6 years / 2010:72.2 years
Infant Mortality Rate 1960:123.9 per 1,000 live births / 2010:29.6
Malnutrition of Children under 5 Years Old 1996:5.6% / 2007:3.1%
Total Government Spending on Health 2001:6.2% of GDP / 2006:7.2%
Total Government Spending on Education 1970:1% of GDP / 2008:5.5%
Proper Sanitary Conditions (homes with proper bodily waste disposal) 1996:64.2% / 2007: 80.3%
Then followed with suggestions on how to do even better next time.
That's the UN folks.
So there are expats posting about social inequality on this thread who also exploit prostitutes? I look at the names of the expat posters: Mike Fisher, cobraboy, Robert, donP, and somehow I can't see that. Maybe you mean dv8, LindseyKaufman or me?
Back to some substantive material on social inequality: the report referred to above is in 3 volumes and currently I have only found it in Spanish. Previous reports were later translated to English - I don't know whether this one will be or not.
Volumen I: Marco te?rico; La pol?tica social: capacidades y derechos; Educaci?n; Salud.
Volumen II: Empleo; Seguridad social y asistencia social; Asentamientos humanos.
Volumen III: Justicia y derechos; Inmigraci?n haitiana; Cohesi?n social; Hacia una pol?tica social basada en derechos.
I've only got as far as P 57 of Volume 1 but there is some really interesting stuff on the drawbacks of social policy implementation based on relationships rather than rights.
lambada, don't pop your brain tumor over figuring this out. The people I am targeting know damn well whom I am talking about. So go ahead with your charity work and leave this topic to us.
AZB
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