Super Tucano Air Fighters, Any Good?

Robert

Robert

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Jan 2, 1999
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Yes, I know it's most probably a very corrupt deal with lots of palm greasing going on, but that's the DR, let's not drag that BS into the thread.

The topic of the thread is....

Is it a capable aircraft to fight drug runners?

From what I hear, it's not that good, especially against some of the current, very fast, night visioned, low flying aircraft being used these days.

The drug runners are flying low (400ft) under the radar and very fast.
The planes are painted dark blue to blend in with the night ocean, the have full night vision capabilities and special props to increase their speed etc etc.
 
H

heldengebroed

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Mar 9, 2005
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Don't know about this plane but i know that the belgian airforce has, in the eighties, done some training flights where marcetie training planes were equiped with modern aimming devices, radar etc against F16 and with F16 pilots in them. The result was that the Marceti could win in almost 50% of the dogfights (drawback a marcetis wings can hardly stand a G11 force )

Greetings

Johan
 
D

DRob

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Aug 15, 2007
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Robert said:
Yes, I know it's most probably a very corrupt deal with lots of palm greasing going on, but that's the DR, let's not drag that BS into the thread.

The topic of the thread is....

Is it a capable aircraft to fight drug runners?

From what I hear, it's not that good, especially against some of the current, very fast, night visioned, low flying aircraft being used these days.

The drug runners are flying low (400ft) under the radar and very fast.
The planes are painted dark blue to blend in with the night ocean, the have full night vision capabilities and special props to increase their speed etc etc.
Click to expand...

It's a counter-insurgency ground attack platform, designed to deal with slow moving ground targets. It's a successor to the old A-1 Skyraider, which saw service from Korea through Vietnam, and gave way to the A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog), still in service today.

My point: it's not designed to chase planes above a certain class, especially fast movers, or for that matter anything with a jet engine and a daring pilot. Even if they burn the engine out, intercept time would take forever.

I'd spend the extra seven million the government is paying for these planes (over the Blackwater price) on retiring or prosecuting the corrupt officials, working out a better agreement with the US, effectively hiring us out - via treaty, of course - to detect and intercept the bad guys (remember, PR is next door).
 
E

El Tigre

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Jan 23, 2003
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Tamborista said:
If the $4.5 million EMB314 B1 Super Tucano is good enough for Blackwater, why do we need the $11.6 million Super Tucano model?

Perhaps one of our military aviation experts can discern the difference in the planes, I did not see the EMB 314 on this site.


Embraer - Empresa Brasileira de Aeron?utica S.A.
Click to expand...

Like Robert indicated...a lot of palm greasing prob involved. This is just another way for connected people to make a quick buck.
 
C

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Let's say we all take it as given that the primary motivation behind the deal was the quick buck, but why couldn't they at least get a worthwhile aircraft while they were at it?
 
C

catcherintherye

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"but why couldn't they at least get a worthwhile aircraft while they were at it?"

If I were to venture a guess, I would say they weren't really serious about apprehending any drug runners. That would interfere with the profit margin, and deflate the bottom line.
 
cobraboy

cobraboy

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Robert said:
Yes, I know it's most probably a very corrupt deal with lots of palm greasing going on, but that's the DR, let's not drag that BS into the thread.

The topic of the thread is....

Is it a capable aircraft to fight drug runners?

From what I hear, it's not that good, especially against some of the current, very fast, night visioned, low flying aircraft being used these days.

The drug runners are flying low (400ft) under the radar and very fast.
The planes are painted dark blue to blend in with the night ocean, the have full night vision capabilities and special props to increase their speed etc etc.
Click to expand...
I saw the report on DR1 News about how they are not the right aircraft for coastal drug interdiction. I sorta scratched my head, couldn't understand where that info came from.

There are a couple of other airplane/pilot guys here and maybe they'll weigh in also.

Price, kickbacks and corruption aside, the Super Tucano is a 320kt. ground support/light attack/COIN aircraft. Seems to be a fine tool for the job. It can fly as low as any other aircraft, even drug aircraft...IF the pilot wants to. It can carry a variety of modern avionics, radar and weapon systems. I'm not aware of any special "night vision" or other technology that the pilots of the Super Tucano wouldn't have.

Most drug planes are converted (and stolen) piston aircraft, C206's, C210's, C310's, C421's, Skymasters, Seneca's, Barons, Beech Twins, Saratoga's, etc. hollowed out with additional fuel tanks, none nearly as fast or maneuverable as the Super Tucano. It's faster than most every turbine aircraft, certainly faster than King Airs, even quicker than a PC-12. Not many clandestine jet drug planes I'm aware of because of the runway requirements for them; besides, I can't imagine dumping drugs out of a jet flying at low altitudes.

I don't know what super-fast aircraft drug runners use that go at 320+kts.

The engine is the venerable P&W PT6A, prolly pushing 1500-1600shp, the best turbine ever made, IMO.

In conjunction with a decent radar system (not for general/commercial aviation), it can definitely do the job. Don't be surprised if a P-3 radar plane suddenly appears in the DR. THAT is when you know that the DR is serious about drug intradiction.

BTW-"special props" don't significantly increase speed. An airframe is designed to go only so fast, until the laws of physics and aerodynamics are repealed.
 
C

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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What about the other point in the dr1 article, the capacity of the DR airforce to train its pilots in the necessary techniques?
 
cobraboy

cobraboy

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Chirimoya said:
What about the other point in the dr1 article, the capacity of the DR airforce to train its pilots in the necessary techniques?
Click to expand...
That is easy. Manufacturers do that all the time if the pilot is qualified. I have no doubt the DR Air Force can fly these airplanes just fine.
 
A

AlaninDR

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Dec 17, 2002
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Taking cynicism another step forward. Just noticed the range of the Super Tucano (2995 miles) which is quite ample for a RT to Colombia.
 
C

catcherintherye

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Mar 2, 2008
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"Taking cynicism another step forward. Just noticed the range of the Super Tucano (2995 miles) which is quite ample for a RT to Colombia."

Now that sounds like a great RT, and I know a good RT when I see one.

(I'm talking "road trip", not "round trip")
 
Robert

Robert

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Jan 2, 1999
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I heard through the local grapevine the Tucano's are slow and cannot catch most of the planes that are currently being used to do drug drops here. They drug runners fly in very fast at 400ft on autopilot and drop usually a few miles off shore.

I also here the purchase came under lots of opposition from those in the know.
e.g. Those that work in chasing drug runners.
They tend to feel the US$90+ million could have been better spent on the ground in actually catching the people off shore or that transport the drugs in the DR.

Let's see.....
 
D

DRob

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cobraboy said:
I saw the report on DR1 News about how they are not the right aircraft for coastal drug interdiction. I sorta scratched my head, couldn't understand where that info came from.

There are a couple of other airplane/pilot guys here and maybe they'll weigh in also.

Price, kickbacks and corruption aside, the Super Tucano is a 320kt. ground support/light attack/COIN aircraft. Seems to be a fine tool for the job. It can fly as low as any other aircraft, even drug aircraft...IF the pilot wants to. It can carry a variety of modern avionics, radar and weapon systems. I'm not aware of any special "night vision" or other technology that the pilots of the Super Tucano wouldn't have.

Most drug planes are converted (and stolen) piston aircraft, C206's, C210's, C310's, C421's, Skymasters, Seneca's, Barons, Beech Twins, Saratoga's, etc. hollowed out with additional fuel tanks, none nearly as fast or maneuverable as the Super Tucano. It's faster than most every turbine aircraft, certainly faster than King Airs, even quicker than a PC-12. Not many clandestine jet drug planes I'm aware of because of the runway requirements for them; besides, I can't imagine dumping drugs out of a jet flying at low altitudes.

I don't know what super-fast aircraft drug runners use that go at 320+kts.

The engine is the venerable P&W PT6A, prolly pushing 1500-1600shp, the best turbine ever made, IMO.

In conjunction with a decent radar system (not for general/commercial aviation), it can definitely do the job. Don't be surprised if a P-3 radar plane suddenly appears in the DR. THAT is when you know that the DR is serious about drug intradiction.

BTW-"special props" don't significantly increase speed. An airframe is designed to go only so fast, until the laws of physics and aerodynamics are repealed.
Click to expand...

P-3s are maritime surveillance craft, designed as sub hunters/killers. They can be adapted by using an E-2 Hawkeye surveillance package (the dome on top).

Here's the thing. A properly outfitted, used P-3 or E-2 will probably run 30-40 million USD, if bought legitimately. God knows what the Dominican upcharge would be. That's 4 super tucanos (or about 35 if bought right). I'd love to see it, but given the Dominican budget, seems like folks are trying to buy a Cadillac on a Civic budget....
 
cobraboy

cobraboy

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DRob said:
P-3s are maritime surveillance craft, designed as sub hunters/killers. They can be adapted by using an E-2 Hawkeye surveillance package (the dome on top).

Here's the thing. A properly outfitted, used P-3 or E-2 will probably run 30-40 million USD, if bought legitimately. God knows what the Dominican upcharge would be. That's 4 super tucanos (or about 35 if bought right). I'd love to see it, but given the Dominican budget, seems like folks are trying to buy a Cadillac on a Civic budget....
Click to expand...
P-3's can be radar outfitted. Don't be surprised if the US put one on loan here to support the ST's.
 
cobraboy

cobraboy

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Robert said:
I heard through the local grapevine the Tucano's are slow and cannot catch most of the planes that are currently being used to do drug drops here. They drug runners fly in very fast at 400ft on autopilot and drop usually a few miles off shore.
Click to expand...
Your grapevine knows not of what they speak. The ST is a legitimate 320kt. aircraft. I doubt there are drug runners flying low that can go anywhere near that fast.
 
J

JRMirador

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More for the fodder...

Venezuela, after being denied US permission to buy SuperTucanos from Brasil, due to US military components, has recently purchase 18 K-8 Karakorum basic jet trainers from China, for delivery in 2009. Here are some performance specs:
Max Level Speed at altitude: 590 mph (950 km/h) at sea level: 495 mph (800 km/h) Initial Climb Rate 5,315 ft (1,620 m) / min Service Ceiling 42,650 ft (13,000 m) Range typical: 755 nm (1,400 km)
ferry: 1,215 nm (2,250 km) Endurance 4 hr 25 min g-Limits +7.33 / -3
 
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