In fact, educated folks may be more pi$$ed about it than unedumacated folks....and more dangerous to the people in power
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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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In fact, educated folks may be more pi$$ed about it than unedumacated folks....and more dangerous to the people in power
That was the problem - leaving in the snippets that referred to the DR AND ensuring that the continuity was preserved would have taken hours so regrettably they all had to go.
Up to a point, yes. But it had exceeded the point where most posters would call it reasonable. Robert's warning issued yesterday about keeping DR related was very quickly followed by a series of long and detailed posts about funding for the US education system which ended up generating a separate discussion.
Maybe Robert can make one of you mod for a week and see how you fare?
so many people with so much free time. 25% unemployment rate or 80%, doesn't matter. The labor will be a labor and the person who wants to be the boss will get ahead. You can work all you want and it will not guarantee you exit out of poverty but the person who really wants to get ahead financially will come up with a plan with almost zero money and will get ahead in life. I have seen this with my own eyes in DR.
Ok guys, its friday and i am off to santiago to take it easy. The rest of you think-tanks can resume your discussion. I didn't even read the previous posts so drob and the greydread can simply stop writing posts towards me. I am not reading them. Boring material. Now I will enjoy my a/c in my car while the poor sweat in heat. Hahahahaha. hohohohh. hehehehe. just joking.
Have a nice weekend.
AZB
Ok guys, its friday and i am off to santiago to take it easy. The rest of you think-tanks can resume your discussion. I didn't even read the previous posts so drob and the greydread can simply stop writing posts towards me. I am not reading them. Boring material. Now I will enjoy my a/c in my car while the poor sweat in heat. Hahahahaha. hohohohh. hehehehe. just joking.
Have a nice weekend.
AZB
That was the problem - leaving in the snippets that referred to the DR AND ensuring that the continuity was preserved would have taken hours so regrettably they all had to go.
Maybe Robert can make one of you mod for a week and see how you fare?
Good point. Sorry for my part in that.
...another small country heard from
No. I was thinking about Tibet.
The "low" wages to which you refer provide a multiple of the purchasing power which exists in the home countries of these workers. Sure, they're probably getting paid 50% - 75% of what their host country citizen peers are earning.... BUT ....They're getting on-the-job experience which in most cases doesn't even exist in their home countries. They're not here to "live it up". They give assistance. They GAIN knowledge and real job experience related to their education. It's supposed to travel back home with them to aid their fellow countrymen but some would rather drive BMW's and shop at Macy's thinking "screw akbar and them. What did they ever do for me. I don't even like yak meat".
Some do return home. Many, having developed a network of professional connections halfway around the World put their entrepreneurial skills to the task of setting up high tech businesses for the 1st World to outsource to. I can name another country which has fared well at this...but I won't.
The whole mention of the H1b visa program came from the fact that it was posted that many Dominican math and science graduates can't get jobs at home and are turning into a group of overeducated, frustrated..no.. "angry" individuals. This is just one solution. I mean if you're a network engineer and you can't find a network to work on wouldn't you consider building one?
How many Doctors and nurses are graduating from medical school in the DR who can't find any sick people to help?
The notion that there's not enough money coming into the DR to support its population is a foolish one in light of the country's proven, steady economic growth in spite of the entire 1st World having suffered through near financial collapse. What do successful companies do during windfall years? They retrofit and modernize their operations, they diversify, they invest in their human resources. It's called forward thinking and you can't do it while looking backward.
No. I was thinking about Tibet.
The "low" wages to which you refer provide a multiple of the purchasing power which exists in the home countries of these workers. Sure, they're probably getting paid 50% - 75% of what their host country citizen peers are earning.... BUT ....They're getting on-the-job experience which in most cases doesn't even exist in their home countries. They're not here to "live it up". They give assistance. They GAIN knowledge and real job experience related to their education. It's supposed to travel back home with them to aid their fellow countrymen but some would rather drive BMW's and shop at Macy's thinking "screw akbar and them. What did they ever do for me. I don't even like yak meat".
Some do return home. Many, having developed a network of professional connections halfway around the World put their entrepreneurial skills to the task of setting up high tech businesses for the 1st World to outsource to. I can name another country which has fared well at this...but I won't.
The whole mention of the H1b visa program came from the fact that it was posted that many Dominican math and science graduates can't get jobs at home and are turning into a group of overeducated, frustrated..no.. "angry" individuals. This is just one solution. I mean if you're a network engineer and you can't find a network to work on wouldn't you consider building one?
How many Doctors and nurses are graduating from medical school in the DR who can't find any sick people to help?
The notion that there's not enough money coming into the DR to support its population is a foolish one in light of the country's proven, steady economic growth in spite of the entire 1st World having suffered through near financial collapse. What do successful companies do during windfall years? They retrofit and modernize their operations, they diversify, they invest in their human resources. It's called forward thinking and you can't do it while looking backward.
1. Its my humble opinion that a lot of the people coming from the "thirth world countries" who have knowledge and who are willing to briden their horizon in working in other countries at a low wage, are THE people who are thinking about their home country and how their gained knowledge can help their family in first instance and in many cases maybe some more fellow country men. The ones who want to stay are the ones that either your governement did not screen very well or are just as many human beings sticking to the "material stuff".
2. To bring it back to the DR, I live here to short to have a good insight on the situation of poverty and the viscuous circle surrounding it. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that - without to want to critisize anybody or any organization - that its a proven fact common wide that outside intervention in any form is NOT helping a thirth world country to develop itself. The growth has to come from within, the people have to want to grow, to change, to develop. As long as well developed nations "behave" themselves as the savers of thirth world countries and in the mean time "real out" the natural resources of such countries such as giving them ridiculous high loanes which they never can repay, exploitations of f.e. coffee farmers in Brazil, diamants in the Congo, etc...as long as that mentality does not change, so long there will be no chance for thirth world countries to develop themselves forward.
Maybe somewhat simplified explained but I think you get the picture here.
Please feel free to add or comment and if I go to far, the post will be deleted for sure but thats fine, its just my opinion.
3. Modern companies reorganize in low seasons, its going on for more then a decade now, its the new thing to do, which means : adding to their assets, keeping the shareholders happy and doing a head count which means lay offs every season, loss of knowledge and more and more unhappy people but hey...the shares are doing well...
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i think you overestimate the alleged kindness of poor towards other poor. sure like hell family will help. once, maybe few times. but no one will constantly keep on helping!
credit in a colmado? i am not a colmadero but i do work in a business that caters to many poor. guess what: they are the majority of clients but not even one gets anything on credit, ever. you wanna know why? because if you give them a finger they'll eat up your whole arm. miesposo (co-owner of the business) has been there and done that. it does not work out. poor do not pay back because they never have enough money.
this assumed sympathy and consideration does not find ground in my experience. on the contrary, i only see examples that prove just the opposite. take the charity event i took part in last year: it was a free clinic for poor folks with give-away medicine and goodies for kids. what i saw was to the spirit of altruism and compassion but a brutal fight. we had to restore to really cheap tricks like tearing apart prescriptions and marking once seen patients with tintura de yodo because they greedily kept on coming back with no regards to the needs of others who also wanted to seek medical attention.
my last word to those who praise the poor: it is easy from your high chair, from the comfort of your air conditioned houses with pools. if you think poor is so much better than rich then give away your possessions and taste poverty first hand. let's see how happy you will be and how much fun will you have...
I understand what you are saying Bob and I agree more or less but I was brought up in a system where supporting the weak less intelligent or misfortuned is a firm brik in the social wellfare system wall.
I do not aprove or disapprove that system. It has it advantages and disadvantages like any other system for that matter.
I just want to say that for me personally I support that system like I know it - despite the fact that it costs me a firm chunk of my wages when still working in Europe, despite the fact that I know that there are some big flaws in it - but better such a system then no system at all.
I do not aprove or disapprove that system. It has it advantages and disadvantages like any other system for that matter.
I just want to say that for me personally I support that system like I know it - despite the fact that it costs me a firm chunk of my wages when still working in Europe, despite the fact that I know that there are some big flaws in it - but better such a system then no system at all.
That was the problem - leaving in the snippets that referred to the DR AND ensuring that the continuity was preserved would have taken hours so regrettably they all had to go.
Up to a point, yes. But it had exceeded the point where most posters would call it reasonable. Robert's warning issued yesterday about keeping DR related was very quickly followed by a series of long and detailed posts about funding for the US education system which ended up generating a separate discussion.
Maybe Robert can make one of you mod for a week and see how you fare?
I get your point bro...or sis, but it all relevant. I dont know how school districts are funded in other areas(for instance Europe) or the US or Canada. I think here it is lump sum dinero goes to the mayor and he allocates what he wants to based on who he owes favors to. Now I dont even know how far that goes with respect to construction, staffing, resources, utilities or whatever else. But WE ALL AGREE THAT the educational system here in pretty much 1920s era in a 21st Century world, doing a humoungous collective disservice to society who cannot afford the private colegio or pedagogias.
I hold to that education is the key to evade poverty to a certain degree not 100% because not everything useful can be learned in college or the university. I think people have abandoned vocational education as a way for "the dumb kids" who arent college material to stay out of prison. Even vocational skills are more technical than they were 100 years ago. Shoot, open a car hood(bonnet) today and you ll see, almost everything if electronic. Plumbing and Air conditioning these days require a rudimentary understanding of physics, fluid dynamics and chemistry. Construction in a seismic area like hispaniola? Yep, you re going to need that physics brother. Or even a problem I HATE HERE, the refuse is another environmental issue that you may not address in college but through vocational programs in environmental sciences you can lower poverty with REAL SKILLS transferable worldwide.
I don't think that there should be a total absence of social welfare. Here in Canada it is run by the provinces and has been abused by some that really don't need it, and some that really need help can't seem to get it. Like any system controlled by the government it has over worked social workers that have too many cases and high rate of burnout. I believe in a two tier medical system like in Austria, and would like to see educational opportunities somewhat like Obama talked about before become President (only thing I agree with him on) where those that can't afford education can work (volunteer) with environmental projects, habitat for humanity....etc to pay off their free education. Could this work in the DR, DON'T KNOW.
No the real ugliness was the fact that they were brought in for lower wages, in place of retraining of professionals that were already there, especially in the case of IT. And then did not go home they just keep getting extended. an the original professionals are out of a job. been there done that.
You are absolutely correct -they are sponsored ONLY because they are cheaper. Rarely is it a skill set issue.
Not so dissimilar to Haitians doing labor here cheaper then Dominicans. Keeping it DR related.....
You are absolutely correct -they are sponsored ONLY because they are cheaper. Rarely is it a skill set issue.
Not so dissimilar to Haitians doing labor here cheaper then Dominicans. Keeping it DR related.....
Haitians in the DR can not be compared to the H1B Visa holder in the U.S.A. I haven't met a H1B visa holder (from those 2 countries that can't be name) that earns less than $60,000 a year, and I have a lot of friends on H1B visas. I wonder how much Haitians in the DR are earning a year!!!
Ezequiel - you missed my humor! See the little smiley face...... I was making a humorous point of staying on topic. Sorry you missed it.
Of course Haitians don't earn that kind of money. Now pay attention here....
Nice to see someone who can tell whether people are cronies by just looking at them.
i would not know many dominican employees who make $1000.- per month, i sure would not name such even close to an average of an salary for a employee.
i live in a touristy area, Punta Cana, the Mates on my boats get 15.000.- and the skippers 25.000.-, the head skipper 30.000.- per month, in pesos of course, and i know that within the foodchain of that top-employment providing Punta Cana they range nicely high in that foodchain. they manage to live comfo, all have a own bike, most drive a own car, none has in his house a smaller TV-screen than i have myself etc etc.
when people talk about 1.000.-US$ per month they are not talking about any average employee in this country, or they simply do not know what they are talking about.
and to manage a happy live here there's no need to make that amount of money neither, when a worker/labourer/employee makes a 15K Pesos he/she can manage a dominican styled very good lifestyle, with kids in school and driving a own car and some nice comforts at home, of course that person needs to keep that employment for a timeperiod and progress within that, not achieved within a few months of emplyment, something many here do not manage to do/stand, locals and mid/low class expats alike.
poverty can not be measured on amount of money,
it is the amount of money an average labourer in a country/specific area earns for his/her labor compared to the sweeties of life/lifestyle he/she can buy in the same country/same area with the earned salary.
to be the owner of an 20 years old toyota tercel here in the DR (i state paid and debtfree) is for the lifestyle worth much more than a labourer of so many 1st world countries who work's his a$$ off on 1 or 2 or 3 jobs to live in a rented/own but debtloaded appartment with 2 kids on a so named "college" driving a just 3 years new Dodge or BMW(leased or on credit, means owned by the bank of course).
i bet on such statistics of poverty the BMW driver would show up as the happy daddy with a 'happy' family in a great country.
compared to my 1st skipper with 5 kids from 2 wifes (all kids in good schools under DR measurements, from both wifes devorced, living with my secretary, that's all fact and not some kinda joke) and his salary and the things he bought over he years we work together,
darn,
compared to him i name that BMW or Dodge or what so ever credit/leasing driver with credit card debits for kids college and wifes 2nd car and his own car and on the furniture in the rented appartment etc just a POOR Soul.
but on poverty stats he sure will show up as the american dream,
or the wealthy german,
or the british queen's cousin,
or the ..... what ever they wanna show us on a stat.
i just name it crap,
BS by the ones who see the need to explain us average idiots of the planet something to talk about, in case we have the education and knowlege of life to catch their ball and discuss such, stats written by harvard idiots for nearby college geniuses to talk about, while the primer doesn't care and the ladder doesn't understand that the whole crap has absolutely nothing to do with the present facts of human live.
***
a small colmado owner in a beach barrio somewhere on the east coast, tourist area not far away, driving a 3 years old toyota jeepeta, business in own property, of course living with 3 kids and 1 wife and the usual rest in his own house on own property, no debts to anybody, the simple 500K pesos for the Jeep been paid last year cash, no bothering bank behind that, kids in a basic private shool teaching average bilingual classes 10 miles up the road,
i name that man king of his town, i don't name him poor, i know as a fact that many many many of my fellow countrymen would love to have such position/social life position etc at home, but of course they could never have
***
now we take a german 'due?o' of a german small town Bar, for the rural german area a good running business, like his ''social dominican competitor'' his wife is working in the own business, yes, i know he could not efford to have 3 kids in a bilingual private average school, he has only one and that one is in the usual single lingual german basic school, he drives a typical for his ''class'' 2.000.000.- pesos BMW or Mercedes car, of course every 2 years switched to the newest model like required for that class of lifestyle, sure he never in his life ''owned'' a car, they always been and will be owned by the bank which gives the credit/guarantee to drive that baby, he can efford every 2 years a family vacation of a week or 2 on a spanish Isle, mostly he skips it b/c they would need somebody to take care about the cashier in the business when the 'boss's' are gone for a week and such is not the best idea, they live in their ""own"" property, a really beatiful 3 bedroom 185 squaremeters appartment in a very nice and mostly safe neighbourhood where the neighbours also drive bank-owned porsches and BMW's and Mercedes's up to date. he is a respected small business owner within the small community which is the surrounding of his life. he is scared about the day somebody would call him b/c his 19 years ole son, a student at a very reputable univercity there, had an accident with his expensive bank owned car under circumstances where the expensive full insurance would not cover, b/c his lil business world would be gone by the same moment.
how i know about that???
easy answer,
i know both of the above mentioned Men,
one is my neighbour here on the Isle and the other is one of my growing up best buddies from back home, both know each others very well since i brought all of us together here on the Isle many years ago.
all 3 of us know very clear who is the rich, who is the poor, who is the happy, who is jellous on the other and would ''swicth'' life in a heartbeat.
to he$$ with stats done by computers and students who do not know a shi$$.
cheers
Mike
i live in a touristy area, Punta Cana, the Mates on my boats get 15.000.- and the skippers 25.000.-, the head skipper 30.000.- per month, in pesos of course, and i know that within the foodchain of that top-employment providing Punta Cana they range nicely high in that foodchain. they manage to live comfo, all have a own bike, most drive a own car, none has in his house a smaller TV-screen than i have myself etc etc.
when people talk about 1.000.-US$ per month they are not talking about any average employee in this country, or they simply do not know what they are talking about.
and to manage a happy live here there's no need to make that amount of money neither, when a worker/labourer/employee makes a 15K Pesos he/she can manage a dominican styled very good lifestyle, with kids in school and driving a own car and some nice comforts at home, of course that person needs to keep that employment for a timeperiod and progress within that, not achieved within a few months of emplyment, something many here do not manage to do/stand, locals and mid/low class expats alike.
poverty can not be measured on amount of money,
it is the amount of money an average labourer in a country/specific area earns for his/her labor compared to the sweeties of life/lifestyle he/she can buy in the same country/same area with the earned salary.
to be the owner of an 20 years old toyota tercel here in the DR (i state paid and debtfree) is for the lifestyle worth much more than a labourer of so many 1st world countries who work's his a$$ off on 1 or 2 or 3 jobs to live in a rented/own but debtloaded appartment with 2 kids on a so named "college" driving a just 3 years new Dodge or BMW(leased or on credit, means owned by the bank of course).
i bet on such statistics of poverty the BMW driver would show up as the happy daddy with a 'happy' family in a great country.
compared to my 1st skipper with 5 kids from 2 wifes (all kids in good schools under DR measurements, from both wifes devorced, living with my secretary, that's all fact and not some kinda joke) and his salary and the things he bought over he years we work together,
darn,
compared to him i name that BMW or Dodge or what so ever credit/leasing driver with credit card debits for kids college and wifes 2nd car and his own car and on the furniture in the rented appartment etc just a POOR Soul.
but on poverty stats he sure will show up as the american dream,
or the wealthy german,
or the british queen's cousin,
or the ..... what ever they wanna show us on a stat.
i just name it crap,
BS by the ones who see the need to explain us average idiots of the planet something to talk about, in case we have the education and knowlege of life to catch their ball and discuss such, stats written by harvard idiots for nearby college geniuses to talk about, while the primer doesn't care and the ladder doesn't understand that the whole crap has absolutely nothing to do with the present facts of human live.
***
a small colmado owner in a beach barrio somewhere on the east coast, tourist area not far away, driving a 3 years old toyota jeepeta, business in own property, of course living with 3 kids and 1 wife and the usual rest in his own house on own property, no debts to anybody, the simple 500K pesos for the Jeep been paid last year cash, no bothering bank behind that, kids in a basic private shool teaching average bilingual classes 10 miles up the road,
i name that man king of his town, i don't name him poor, i know as a fact that many many many of my fellow countrymen would love to have such position/social life position etc at home, but of course they could never have
***
now we take a german 'due?o' of a german small town Bar, for the rural german area a good running business, like his ''social dominican competitor'' his wife is working in the own business, yes, i know he could not efford to have 3 kids in a bilingual private average school, he has only one and that one is in the usual single lingual german basic school, he drives a typical for his ''class'' 2.000.000.- pesos BMW or Mercedes car, of course every 2 years switched to the newest model like required for that class of lifestyle, sure he never in his life ''owned'' a car, they always been and will be owned by the bank which gives the credit/guarantee to drive that baby, he can efford every 2 years a family vacation of a week or 2 on a spanish Isle, mostly he skips it b/c they would need somebody to take care about the cashier in the business when the 'boss's' are gone for a week and such is not the best idea, they live in their ""own"" property, a really beatiful 3 bedroom 185 squaremeters appartment in a very nice and mostly safe neighbourhood where the neighbours also drive bank-owned porsches and BMW's and Mercedes's up to date. he is a respected small business owner within the small community which is the surrounding of his life. he is scared about the day somebody would call him b/c his 19 years ole son, a student at a very reputable univercity there, had an accident with his expensive bank owned car under circumstances where the expensive full insurance would not cover, b/c his lil business world would be gone by the same moment.
how i know about that???
easy answer,
i know both of the above mentioned Men,
one is my neighbour here on the Isle and the other is one of my growing up best buddies from back home, both know each others very well since i brought all of us together here on the Isle many years ago.
all 3 of us know very clear who is the rich, who is the poor, who is the happy, who is jellous on the other and would ''swicth'' life in a heartbeat.
to he$$ with stats done by computers and students who do not know a shi$$.
cheers
Mike
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